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Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

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  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    You serve a a different god than I do. The God i serve isn't unaware of anything.
    I know, you'd rather serve a GOD who knowingly puts innocents into hell.

    Tell me what Acts 15:18 means...
    I champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

    I champion Our Free will:
    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

      Look at his question again, Tom, it is backwards to the usual way of asking about HIS omniscience....ie, yes affirms HE does NOT know.
      Tom replies

      Ok I do believe he knows

      It is called middle knowledge

      I believe God has middle knowledge
      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

        IF determines means to "cause to be evil" then yes. If it means to direct the self caused/chosen evil of a person to go in a certain direction, then no. Fair?
        If God uses the self caused/chosen evil of man to accomplish his redemptive purpose there is no affront to the character of God
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

          Where does it say in the Bible that the pagan Greek definition that what HE knows is "all that can be known for eternity past to eternity future?" is the truth? Acts 15:18 says HE knows all of HIS works since the beginning of the world, ie, so it puts the end to the pagan definition forever but the Church fathers who idolized the Greeks brought it into the Church and you still are under its sway...

          BUT YOUR definition blasphemes GOD by having HIM create those HE KNOWS will go to hell ! a doctrine that contains NO love, NO righteousness and NO justice yet you are satisfied with it because you feel you must deny our pre-earth existence. So be it.
          Again u serve a different god !

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Tom replies

            Ok I do believe he knows

            It is called middle knowledge

            I believe God has middle knowledge
            Is middle knowledge interpreted from scripture or is it a theological construct necessary to explain a theology? Every step of PCE has scripture that can be interpreted as support for PCE OR as support for orthodoxy and we must choose by faith. But there is no direct scriptural support for the necessity of our free will though it is certainly implied as a necessity from the revelations of HIS character and HIS plans for us.

            I think middle knowledge was probably a construct to get around the implications that HIS omniscience is NOT properly defined by orthodoxy but which has not not yet tried to exegete the implications of Acts 15:18. IF this verse gives us the answer then the middle knowledge construct is immaterial.
            I champion GOD’s holiness:
            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
            - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

            I champion Our Free will:
            - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

              Again u serve a different god !
              “"You have said it yourself."
              I champion GOD’s holiness:
              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

              I champion Our Free will:
              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                “"You have said it yourself."
                Not interested in your god

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                  Is middle knowledge interpreted from scripture or is it a theological construct necessary to explain a theology? Every step of PCE has scripture that can be interpreted as support for PCE OR as support for orthodoxy and we must choose by faith. But there is no direct scriptural support for the necessity of our free will though it is certainly implied as a necessity from the revelations of HIS character and HIS plans for us.

                  I think middle knowledge was probably a construct to get around the implications that HIS omniscience is NOT properly defined by orthodoxy but which has not not yet tried to exegete the implications of Acts 15:18. IF this verse gives us the answer then the middle knowledge construct is immaterial.
                  Tom replies

                  See 1Samuel 23:10-12

                  Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

                  God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed
                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                    Tom replies

                    See 1Samuel 23:10-12

                    Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

                    God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed
                    I can only guess why you speak about this that it somehow confirms what you call middle knowledge but if all our acts as sinners are predetermined before life on earth and the end of our lives here on earth are predestined before the start of our lives on earth while we are living in the spirit world, then HE would know such things because HE has fore-ordained them.

                    As long as the doctrine does NOT say HE fore-ordained our fates or our sinfulness, I'm ok with anything HE predestines here on earth to conform our lives to our self chosen fates and free will choice to be sinful before our earthly lives.

                    Teaching David it is important to believe HIM and to follow HIS lead is a practical example of the positive side of the discipline of Heb 12:5-11.
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                      I can only guess why you speak about this that it somehow confirms what you call middle knowledge but if all our acts as sinners are predetermined before life on earth and the end of our lives here on earth are predestined before the start of our lives on earth while we are living in the spirit world, then HE would know such things because HE has fore-ordained them.

                      As long as the doctrine does NOT say HE fore-ordained our fates or our sinfulness, I'm ok with anything HE predestines here on earth to conform our lives to our self chosen fates and free will choice to be sinful before our earthly lives.

                      Teaching David it is important to believe HIM and to follow HIS lead is a practical example of the positive side of the discipline of Heb 12:5-11.
                      Tom replies


                      Why guess ?

                      It clearly shows God knows the results of possible humans decision

                      See 1Samuel 23:10-12

                      Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

                      God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed

                      I did not however say anything about predetermination and I certainly do not believe God predetermines our sins.

                      that is contrary to scripture

                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TomL View Post
                        It clearly shows God knows the results of possible humans decision
                        ...because HE knows the results of our free will decisions OR because HE has predetermined those decisions that perfectly match the self chosen sinfulness of men to further HIS redemptive cause?

                        If a man has become enslaved by sin, losing his free will due to his free will, how is it against GOD's character to mitigate the expression of the sinfulness of men by keeping the sin to evil words rather than an evil assault?

                        When I contend that GOD determines / chooses the evil men do I am trying to express a full theological position with only a few words:
                        1. All sinners grow to be willing and able to do the most evil thing they can conceive with any temptation the more they practice evil, ie the more they are leavened by evil.

                        2. Men do NOT act out the most evil things they can conceive to do because of the restraining work of the Holy Spirit. This restraining work determines how fast and how deep the leavening of evil seeps into the soul but the inevitable position of a person without the grace of the indwelling Spirit is to be fully leavened into total Satanic psychopathy.

                        3. To determine what evil a man will do does not mean HE will force a man who has no intention of doing a certain bad thing and make HIM to do it by a predetermination it be done but only that HE predetermines the man to do evil he wants to do only to the point that serves the LORD's purpose and then is restrained by the Spirit.

                        Therefore when I contend that GOD determines / chooses the evil men do, I am actually expressing that GOD predetermines the limit of the sin a person might choose to do to that which suits HIS redemptive purpose, while the sins they are tempted to do are the result of their free will decision to be sinful pre-conception and the situation GOD sows them into in their earthly lives.

                        I champion GOD’s holiness:
                        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                        - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                        I champion Our Free will:
                        - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                          ...because HE knows the results of our free will decisions OR because HE has predetermined those decisions that perfectly match the self chosen sinfulness of men to further HIS redemptive cause?

                          If a man has become enslaved by sin, losing his free will due to his free will, how is it against GOD's character to mitigate the expression of the sinfulness of men by keeping the sin to evil words rather than an evil assault?
                          Tom replies

                          what did the example show ?

                          God knew had David remained in Keilah he would be killed

                          David decided he would not stay.

                          I do not believe man loses his libertarian free will because of sin. His nature is depraved but he still makes choices and is able to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action

                          I am not sure what you are trying to say when you speak of limiting man sin to words rather an actual assault.

                          Either god determines man's sin or he does not and mans sin is self determined

                          I do not believe god determines mans sinful actions

                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment

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