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Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

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  • Sketo
    started a topic Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

    Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

    Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”

    Psalm 135:6 - “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does....”

    Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

    Isaiah 46:10 - “...My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.”

    Acts 17:26 - “...[God] determined their [all nations’] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.”

    Romans 8:28 - “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God....”

    Ephesians 1:11 - “...[God] works all things after the counsel of His will.”

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Genesis 50:20 - “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result....”

    (If the evil that Joseph’s brothers committed against him was meant by God for good, how can we escape the conclusion that God in some sense ordained it to happen?)

    Exodus 7:3 - “But I will harden Pharoah’s heart that I may multiply my signs and wonders against Egypt.”

    (See also Exodus 4:21 and 14:4, 8, and 17, which also speak of God hardening Pharoah’s heart, as well as the hearts of all the Egyptians. It is true that in some verses Pharoah is said to have hardened his own heart, but that does not negate the fact that God is explicitly said to have done it here. Thus the evil that Pharoah’s hard heart induced him to commit was in some sense ordained by God.)

    Deuteronomy 2:30 - “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate , in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.”

    Joshua 11:20 - “For it was of the Lord to harden their [various peoples of the promised land’s] hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy.”

    Judges 9:23 - “Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimilech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimilech.”

    Judges 14:4 - “However, his father and mother did not know that it [Samson’s sinful intent to marry a Philistine woman, contrary to the Law] was of the Lord, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.”

    1 Samuel 2:25 - “...But they [Eli’s sons] would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.”

    1 Samuel 16:14 - “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

    (See also 1 Samuel 18:10-11, which gives an example of how this provoked an evil reaction from Saul. Although the fact that God sent the evil spirit does not necessarily prove that Saul’s evil reaction was actually ordained by God, it does show that it was at least in some sense intentionally provoked by God.)

    2 Samuel 12:11 - “Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.’”

    2 Samuel 16:11 - “...Let him [Shimei] alone and let him curse, for the Lord has told him.”

    (Note that Shimei’s cursing of David was indeed a evil act, as he later acknowledged in 2 Samuel 19:20, and yet David said God had in some sense sent him to do it.)

    2 Samuel 24:1 - “Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah.’”

    (Note that the parallel account in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan was the one who moved David to do this. This apparent discrepancy can be explained by the realization that God was the ultimate cause even though Satan was the means or the immediate cause.)

    1 Kings 12:15 - “So the king [Rehoboam] did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jereboam the son of Nebat.”

    1 Kings 22:23 - “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets ....”

    (See also verses 20-22, and the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, which tell of God sending this deceiving spirit, for the purpose of enticing Ahab to go up to war at Ramoth-Gilead and fall.)

    2 Kings 24:19-20 - “He [Zedekiah] did evil in the sight of the Lord.... For through the anger of the Lord this came about....”

    (See also Jeremiah 52:2-3.)

    2 Chronicles 25:20 - “But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.”

    Job 2:3 - “...you [Satan] incited Me [God] against him [Job] to ruin him without cause.”

    (Note from the first chapter of Job that the ruin inflicted upon him consisted at least partly in evil actions by Satan and various men, notably the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Yet Job accepted all this as from the hand of the Lord in Job 1:21 and 2:10, in keeping with God’s own assessment of it here and in Job 42:11.)

    Job 42:11 - “...they consoled and comforted him for all the adversities that the Lord had brought on him....”

    Psalm 76:10 - “For the wrath of man shall praise You....”

    (Though this does not directly attribute man’s evil wrath to God’s sovereign plan, it does so indirectly by showing that even this is ultimately to His praise.)

    Psalm 105:25 - “He [God] turned their [the Egyptians’] heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.”

    Proverbs 16:4 - “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

    Isaiah 6:10 - “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.”

    (See also John 12:40, where this is paraphrased with an even stronger attribution of the people’s sinful blindness to God Himself.)

    Isaiah 63:17 - “Why, O Lord, do you cause us to stray away from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?”

    Jeremiah 6:21 - “Therefore, thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am laying stumbling blocks before this people....’”

    Lamentations 3:37-38 - “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

    Ezekiel 38:10,16 - “ Thus says the Lord God, ‘It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan...and you will come up against My people... I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.’”

    Amos 3:6 - “...If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?

    (Note that the context of this verse shows it refers to calamity caused by another nation’s attack, not simply a natural disaster or accident—see Amos 3:11.)

    John 15:25 - “But they have done this [hated Jesus and the Father] to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’”

    Acts 2:23 - “This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

    Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

    Romans 9:18 - “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    Romans 9:32-33 - “... They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense....’”

    Romans 11:8 - “...God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.”

    Romans 11:32 - “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

    1 Corinthians 5:5 - “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh....”

    (This shows an example of the evil work of Satan being ordained by God for a good purpose, namely the destruction of the flesh of the sinning believer.)

    2 Corinthians 12:7 - “...for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!”

    (If Paul’s thorn could be described as a messenger of Satan, it certainly seems reasonable to see Satan’s evil activity behind it. Yet it was ultimately given to Paul by God , so He apparently ordained this harassment of Paul by Satan.)

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 - “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

    1 Peter 2:8 - “...they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

    Revelation 17:17 - “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”

  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    ...because HE knows the results of our free will decisions OR because HE has predetermined those decisions that perfectly match the self chosen sinfulness of men to further HIS redemptive cause?

    If a man has become enslaved by sin, losing his free will due to his free will, how is it against GOD's character to mitigate the expression of the sinfulness of men by keeping the sin to evil words rather than an evil assault?
    Tom replies

    what did the example show ?

    God knew had David remained in Keilah he would be killed

    David decided he would not stay.

    I do not believe man loses his libertarian free will because of sin. His nature is depraved but he still makes choices and is able to refrain or not refrain from a given moral action

    I am not sure what you are trying to say when you speak of limiting man sin to words rather an actual assault.

    Either god determines man's sin or he does not and mans sin is self determined

    I do not believe god determines mans sinful actions

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    It clearly shows God knows the results of possible humans decision
    ...because HE knows the results of our free will decisions OR because HE has predetermined those decisions that perfectly match the self chosen sinfulness of men to further HIS redemptive cause?

    If a man has become enslaved by sin, losing his free will due to his free will, how is it against GOD's character to mitigate the expression of the sinfulness of men by keeping the sin to evil words rather than an evil assault?

    When I contend that GOD determines / chooses the evil men do I am trying to express a full theological position with only a few words:
    1. All sinners grow to be willing and able to do the most evil thing they can conceive with any temptation the more they practice evil, ie the more they are leavened by evil.

    2. Men do NOT act out the most evil things they can conceive to do because of the restraining work of the Holy Spirit. This restraining work determines how fast and how deep the leavening of evil seeps into the soul but the inevitable position of a person without the grace of the indwelling Spirit is to be fully leavened into total Satanic psychopathy.

    3. To determine what evil a man will do does not mean HE will force a man who has no intention of doing a certain bad thing and make HIM to do it by a predetermination it be done but only that HE predetermines the man to do evil he wants to do only to the point that serves the LORD's purpose and then is restrained by the Spirit.

    Therefore when I contend that GOD determines / chooses the evil men do, I am actually expressing that GOD predetermines the limit of the sin a person might choose to do to that which suits HIS redemptive purpose, while the sins they are tempted to do are the result of their free will decision to be sinful pre-conception and the situation GOD sows them into in their earthly lives.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    I can only guess why you speak about this that it somehow confirms what you call middle knowledge but if all our acts as sinners are predetermined before life on earth and the end of our lives here on earth are predestined before the start of our lives on earth while we are living in the spirit world, then HE would know such things because HE has fore-ordained them.

    As long as the doctrine does NOT say HE fore-ordained our fates or our sinfulness, I'm ok with anything HE predestines here on earth to conform our lives to our self chosen fates and free will choice to be sinful before our earthly lives.

    Teaching David it is important to believe HIM and to follow HIS lead is a practical example of the positive side of the discipline of Heb 12:5-11.
    Tom replies


    Why guess ?

    It clearly shows God knows the results of possible humans decision

    See 1Samuel 23:10-12

    Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

    God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed

    I did not however say anything about predetermination and I certainly do not believe God predetermines our sins.

    that is contrary to scripture

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    See 1Samuel 23:10-12

    Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

    God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed
    I can only guess why you speak about this that it somehow confirms what you call middle knowledge but if all our acts as sinners are predetermined before life on earth and the end of our lives here on earth are predestined before the start of our lives on earth while we are living in the spirit world, then HE would know such things because HE has fore-ordained them.

    As long as the doctrine does NOT say HE fore-ordained our fates or our sinfulness, I'm ok with anything HE predestines here on earth to conform our lives to our self chosen fates and free will choice to be sinful before our earthly lives.

    Teaching David it is important to believe HIM and to follow HIS lead is a practical example of the positive side of the discipline of Heb 12:5-11.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    Is middle knowledge interpreted from scripture or is it a theological construct necessary to explain a theology? Every step of PCE has scripture that can be interpreted as support for PCE OR as support for orthodoxy and we must choose by faith. But there is no direct scriptural support for the necessity of our free will though it is certainly implied as a necessity from the revelations of HIS character and HIS plans for us.

    I think middle knowledge was probably a construct to get around the implications that HIS omniscience is NOT properly defined by orthodoxy but which has not not yet tried to exegete the implications of Acts 15:18. IF this verse gives us the answer then the middle knowledge construct is immaterial.
    Tom replies

    See 1Samuel 23:10-12

    Where David asks God if Saul will kill him if he goes to Keilah

    God tells him yes David does not go and is not killed

    Leave a comment:


  • beloved57
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
    “"You have said it yourself."
    Not interested in your god

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    Again u serve a different god !
    “"You have said it yourself."

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    Ok I do believe he knows

    It is called middle knowledge

    I believe God has middle knowledge
    Is middle knowledge interpreted from scripture or is it a theological construct necessary to explain a theology? Every step of PCE has scripture that can be interpreted as support for PCE OR as support for orthodoxy and we must choose by faith. But there is no direct scriptural support for the necessity of our free will though it is certainly implied as a necessity from the revelations of HIS character and HIS plans for us.

    I think middle knowledge was probably a construct to get around the implications that HIS omniscience is NOT properly defined by orthodoxy but which has not not yet tried to exegete the implications of Acts 15:18. IF this verse gives us the answer then the middle knowledge construct is immaterial.

    Leave a comment:


  • beloved57
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    Where does it say in the Bible that the pagan Greek definition that what HE knows is "all that can be known for eternity past to eternity future?" is the truth? Acts 15:18 says HE knows all of HIS works since the beginning of the world, ie, so it puts the end to the pagan definition forever but the Church fathers who idolized the Greeks brought it into the Church and you still are under its sway...

    BUT YOUR definition blasphemes GOD by having HIM create those HE KNOWS will go to hell ! a doctrine that contains NO love, NO righteousness and NO justice yet you are satisfied with it because you feel you must deny our pre-earth existence. So be it.
    Again u serve a different god !

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    IF determines means to "cause to be evil" then yes. If it means to direct the self caused/chosen evil of a person to go in a certain direction, then no. Fair?
    If God uses the self caused/chosen evil of man to accomplish his redemptive purpose there is no affront to the character of God

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    Look at his question again, Tom, it is backwards to the usual way of asking about HIS omniscience....ie, yes affirms HE does NOT know.
    Tom replies

    Ok I do believe he knows

    It is called middle knowledge

    I believe God has middle knowledge

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    You serve a a different god than I do. The God i serve isn't unaware of anything.
    I know, you'd rather serve a GOD who knowingly puts innocents into hell.

    Tell me what Acts 15:18 means...

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
    You not making sense.
    Your failure to understand is that you believe our conception / birth on earth is our creation and every time you hear I believe we were created long before our conception on earth you metaphorically put your fingers in your ears, waggle them and claim I make no sense. Bin here before but at least now you are polite about it.

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Tom replies

    hello

    I affirmed his does know the action of his creatures before he created them

    your statement is confused
    Look at his question again, Tom, it is backwards to the usual way of asking about HIS omniscience....ie, yes affirms HE does NOT know.

    Leave a comment:

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