Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Does God Ordain Evil? Reference list!

    Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”

    Psalm 135:6 - “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does....”

    Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

    Isaiah 46:10 - “...My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.”

    Acts 17:26 - “...[God] determined their [all nations’] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.”

    Romans 8:28 - “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God....”

    Ephesians 1:11 - “...[God] works all things after the counsel of His will.”

    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Genesis 50:20 - “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result....”

    (If the evil that Joseph’s brothers committed against him was meant by God for good, how can we escape the conclusion that God in some sense ordained it to happen?)

    Exodus 7:3 - “But I will harden Pharoah’s heart that I may multiply my signs and wonders against Egypt.”

    (See also Exodus 4:21 and 14:4, 8, and 17, which also speak of God hardening Pharoah’s heart, as well as the hearts of all the Egyptians. It is true that in some verses Pharoah is said to have hardened his own heart, but that does not negate the fact that God is explicitly said to have done it here. Thus the evil that Pharoah’s hard heart induced him to commit was in some sense ordained by God.)

    Deuteronomy 2:30 - “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate , in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.”

    Joshua 11:20 - “For it was of the Lord to harden their [various peoples of the promised land’s] hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy.”

    Judges 9:23 - “Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimilech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimilech.”

    Judges 14:4 - “However, his father and mother did not know that it [Samson’s sinful intent to marry a Philistine woman, contrary to the Law] was of the Lord, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.”

    1 Samuel 2:25 - “...But they [Eli’s sons] would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.”

    1 Samuel 16:14 - “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

    (See also 1 Samuel 18:10-11, which gives an example of how this provoked an evil reaction from Saul. Although the fact that God sent the evil spirit does not necessarily prove that Saul’s evil reaction was actually ordained by God, it does show that it was at least in some sense intentionally provoked by God.)

    2 Samuel 12:11 - “Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.’”

    2 Samuel 16:11 - “...Let him [Shimei] alone and let him curse, for the Lord has told him.”

    (Note that Shimei’s cursing of David was indeed a evil act, as he later acknowledged in 2 Samuel 19:20, and yet David said God had in some sense sent him to do it.)

    2 Samuel 24:1 - “Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah.’”

    (Note that the parallel account in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan was the one who moved David to do this. This apparent discrepancy can be explained by the realization that God was the ultimate cause even though Satan was the means or the immediate cause.)

    1 Kings 12:15 - “So the king [Rehoboam] did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jereboam the son of Nebat.”

    1 Kings 22:23 - “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets ....”

    (See also verses 20-22, and the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, which tell of God sending this deceiving spirit, for the purpose of enticing Ahab to go up to war at Ramoth-Gilead and fall.)

    2 Kings 24:19-20 - “He [Zedekiah] did evil in the sight of the Lord.... For through the anger of the Lord this came about....”

    (See also Jeremiah 52:2-3.)

    2 Chronicles 25:20 - “But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.”

    Job 2:3 - “...you [Satan] incited Me [God] against him [Job] to ruin him without cause.”

    (Note from the first chapter of Job that the ruin inflicted upon him consisted at least partly in evil actions by Satan and various men, notably the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Yet Job accepted all this as from the hand of the Lord in Job 1:21 and 2:10, in keeping with God’s own assessment of it here and in Job 42:11.)

    Job 42:11 - “...they consoled and comforted him for all the adversities that the Lord had brought on him....”

    Psalm 76:10 - “For the wrath of man shall praise You....”

    (Though this does not directly attribute man’s evil wrath to God’s sovereign plan, it does so indirectly by showing that even this is ultimately to His praise.)

    Psalm 105:25 - “He [God] turned their [the Egyptians’] heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.”

    Proverbs 16:4 - “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

    Isaiah 6:10 - “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.”

    (See also John 12:40, where this is paraphrased with an even stronger attribution of the people’s sinful blindness to God Himself.)

    Isaiah 63:17 - “Why, O Lord, do you cause us to stray away from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?”

    Jeremiah 6:21 - “Therefore, thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am laying stumbling blocks before this people....’”

    Lamentations 3:37-38 - “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

    Ezekiel 38:10,16 - “ Thus says the Lord God, ‘It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan...and you will come up against My people... I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.’”

    Amos 3:6 - “...If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?

    (Note that the context of this verse shows it refers to calamity caused by another nation’s attack, not simply a natural disaster or accident—see Amos 3:11.)

    John 15:25 - “But they have done this [hated Jesus and the Father] to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’”

    Acts 2:23 - “This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

    Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

    Romans 9:18 - “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

    Romans 9:32-33 - “... They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense....’”

    Romans 11:8 - “...God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.”

    Romans 11:32 - “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

    1 Corinthians 5:5 - “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh....”

    (This shows an example of the evil work of Satan being ordained by God for a good purpose, namely the destruction of the flesh of the sinning believer.)

    2 Corinthians 12:7 - “...for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!”

    (If Paul’s thorn could be described as a messenger of Satan, it certainly seems reasonable to see Satan’s evil activity behind it. Yet it was ultimately given to Paul by God , so He apparently ordained this harassment of Paul by Satan.)

    2 Thessalonians 2:11 - “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

    1 Peter 2:8 - “...they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

    Revelation 17:17 - “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”
    2 Timothy 2:24-26

  • #2
    Originally posted by Sketo View Post
    Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”

    .................................

    .”
    Tom replies

    Does God determine all of man's evil acts. Not according to the bible

    1 John 2:16 (KJV)
    16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

    James 1:13-14 (KJV)
    13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

    Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)
    5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

    Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
    35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

    Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
    31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

    James 3:14-17 (KJV)
    14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
    15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
    16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
    17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

    BTW it would be an equivocation to confound disaster with all of man's evil actions which are not determined by God
    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
      Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”

      Psalm 135:6 - “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does....”

      Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”

      Isaiah 46:10 - “...My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.”

      Acts 17:26 - “...[God] determined their [all nations’] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.”

      Romans 8:28 - “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God....”

      Ephesians 1:11 - “...[God] works all things after the counsel of His will.”

      <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Genesis 50:20 - “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result....”

      (If the evil that Joseph’s brothers committed against him was meant by God for good, how can we escape the conclusion that God in some sense ordained it to happen?)

      Exodus 7:3 - “But I will harden Pharoah’s heart that I may multiply my signs and wonders against Egypt.”

      (See also Exodus 4:21 and 14:4, 8, and 17, which also speak of God hardening Pharoah’s heart, as well as the hearts of all the Egyptians. It is true that in some verses Pharoah is said to have hardened his own heart, but that does not negate the fact that God is explicitly said to have done it here. Thus the evil that Pharoah’s hard heart induced him to commit was in some sense ordained by God.)

      Deuteronomy 2:30 - “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate , in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.”

      Joshua 11:20 - “For it was of the Lord to harden their [various peoples of the promised land’s] hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy.”

      Judges 9:23 - “Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimilech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimilech.”

      Judges 14:4 - “However, his father and mother did not know that it [Samson’s sinful intent to marry a Philistine woman, contrary to the Law] was of the Lord, for He was seeking an occasion against the Philistines.”

      1 Samuel 2:25 - “...But they [Eli’s sons] would not listen to the voice of their father, for the Lord desired to put them to death.”

      1 Samuel 16:14 - “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

      (See also 1 Samuel 18:10-11, which gives an example of how this provoked an evil reaction from Saul. Although the fact that God sent the evil spirit does not necessarily prove that Saul’s evil reaction was actually ordained by God, it does show that it was at least in some sense intentionally provoked by God.)

      2 Samuel 12:11 - “Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.’”

      2 Samuel 16:11 - “...Let him [Shimei] alone and let him curse, for the Lord has told him.”

      (Note that Shimei’s cursing of David was indeed a evil act, as he later acknowledged in 2 Samuel 19:20, and yet David said God had in some sense sent him to do it.)

      2 Samuel 24:1 - “Now again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and it incited David against them to say, ‘Go, number Israel and Judah.’”

      (Note that the parallel account in 1 Chronicles 21:1 says that Satan was the one who moved David to do this. This apparent discrepancy can be explained by the realization that God was the ultimate cause even though Satan was the means or the immediate cause.)

      1 Kings 12:15 - “So the king [Rehoboam] did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jereboam the son of Nebat.”

      1 Kings 22:23 - “Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets ....”

      (See also verses 20-22, and the parallel account in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22, which tell of God sending this deceiving spirit, for the purpose of enticing Ahab to go up to war at Ramoth-Gilead and fall.)

      2 Kings 24:19-20 - “He [Zedekiah] did evil in the sight of the Lord.... For through the anger of the Lord this came about....”

      (See also Jeremiah 52:2-3.)

      2 Chronicles 25:20 - “But Amaziah would not listen, for it was from God, that He might deliver them into the hand of Joash because they had sought the gods of Edom.”

      Job 2:3 - “...you [Satan] incited Me [God] against him [Job] to ruin him without cause.”

      (Note from the first chapter of Job that the ruin inflicted upon him consisted at least partly in evil actions by Satan and various men, notably the Sabeans and Chaldeans. Yet Job accepted all this as from the hand of the Lord in Job 1:21 and 2:10, in keeping with God’s own assessment of it here and in Job 42:11.)

      Job 42:11 - “...they consoled and comforted him for all the adversities that the Lord had brought on him....”

      Psalm 76:10 - “For the wrath of man shall praise You....”

      (Though this does not directly attribute man’s evil wrath to God’s sovereign plan, it does so indirectly by showing that even this is ultimately to His praise.)

      Psalm 105:25 - “He [God] turned their [the Egyptians’] heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants.”

      Proverbs 16:4 - “The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

      Isaiah 6:10 - “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed.”

      (See also John 12:40, where this is paraphrased with an even stronger attribution of the people’s sinful blindness to God Himself.)

      Isaiah 63:17 - “Why, O Lord, do you cause us to stray away from Your ways and harden our heart from fearing You?”

      Jeremiah 6:21 - “Therefore, thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I am laying stumbling blocks before this people....’”

      Lamentations 3:37-38 - “Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, unless the Lord has commanded it? Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both good and ill go forth?

      Ezekiel 38:10,16 - “ Thus says the Lord God, ‘It will come about on that day, that thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil plan...and you will come up against My people... I will bring you against My land, so that the nations may know Me when I am sanctified through you before their eyes, O Gog.’”

      Amos 3:6 - “...If a calamity occurs in a city has not the Lord done it?

      (Note that the context of this verse shows it refers to calamity caused by another nation’s attack, not simply a natural disaster or accident—see Amos 3:11.)

      John 15:25 - “But they have done this [hated Jesus and the Father] to fulfill the word that is written in their Law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’”

      Acts 2:23 - “This Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”

      Acts 4:27-28 - “For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.

      Romans 9:18 - “So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

      Romans 9:32-33 - “... They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, ‘Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense....’”

      Romans 11:8 - “...God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.”

      Romans 11:32 - “For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.”

      1 Corinthians 5:5 - “I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh....”

      (This shows an example of the evil work of Satan being ordained by God for a good purpose, namely the destruction of the flesh of the sinning believer.)

      2 Corinthians 12:7 - “...for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!”

      (If Paul’s thorn could be described as a messenger of Satan, it certainly seems reasonable to see Satan’s evil activity behind it. Yet it was ultimately given to Paul by God , so He apparently ordained this harassment of Paul by Satan.)

      2 Thessalonians 2:11 - “For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false.”

      1 Peter 2:8 - “...they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

      Revelation 17:17 - “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.”
      Good job Sketo; as far as I'm concerned, we only need one verse which says that God works all things after the counsel of his Will. As TomL pointed out, there are other verses which show otherwise but this is the Theology Board, not the Pretext Board. When we have verses lining up on both sides of the Tug-of-War, that's a wrong approach. The Verses are written by the same Holy Spirit who cannot Lie; and all of them are the God's honest Truth. If TomL's side doesn't want us to behave as if our verses are stronger than his, he should act as if his verses are not stronger than ours. We should all act as if every verse is the unfelled Truth of God. This is when the Queen of Sciences, Theology, by believing all the Verses, produces True Doctrine; as true as any Bible verse in existence (IE Trinity, Soft Determinism). Just by using the one verse which says God works all things according to the counsel of his Will, all Christians should be at least Soft Determinists. But to them an ounce of Soft Determinism is a pound of Hard Determinism; what if they're right? Let's concede this much 'for now', so we can get them to focus back onto God working all things according to the counsel of his Will. When they move to the charge that any Determinism is Hard Determinism at the end of the day, they stop focusing on the fact that God works all things according to the counsel of his Will; this is where we need them to be or they are forever playing hopscotch and avoiding a Fundamental of the Faith. We need it to be more like Monopoly than Hopscotch; "Do not pass Go" and make them land on God working all things according to his Will...

      God does Ordain all which comes to pass...
      Last edited by bruisermiller; 02-06-19, 09:03 AM.
      New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

      I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

        Good job Sketo; as far as I'm concerned, we only need one verse which says that God works all things after the counsel of his Will. As TomL pointed out, there are other verses which show otherwise but this is the Theology Board, not the Pretext Board. When we have verses lining up on both sides of the Tug-of-War, that's a wrong approach. The Verses are written by the same Holy Spirit who cannot Lie; and all of them are the God's honest Truth. If TomL's side doesn't want us to behave as if our verses are stronger than his, he should act as if his verses are not stronger than ours. We should all act as if every verse is the unfelled Truth of God. This is when the Queen of Sciences, Theology, by believing all the Verses, produces True Doctrine; as true as any Bible verse in existence (IE Trinity, Soft Determinism). Just by using the one verse which says God works all things according to the counsel of his Will, all Christians should be at least Soft Determinists. But to them an ounce of Soft Determinism is a pound of Hard Determinism; what if they're right? Let's concede this much 'for now', so we can get them to focus back onto God working all things according to the counsel of his Will. When they move to the charge that any Determinism is Hard Determinism at the end of the day, they stop focusing on the fact that God works all things according to the counsel of his Will; this is where we need them to be or they are forever playing hopscotch and avoiding a Fundamental of the Faith...

        God does Ordain all which comes to pass...
        Tom notes

        It would be a wrong approach to confound calamity or what are referred to as acts of God with man's evil will and desires

        And there is a great difference between working all things according to the council of his will and determining all things.

        God can use the greed and evil of Judas heart toward good ends but that is very different than saying God determined Judas evil

        let alone all the evil thoughts and desires of men
        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by TomL View Post

          Tom notes

          It would be a wrong approach to confound calamity or what are referred to as acts of God with man's evil will and desires

          And there is a great difference between working all things according to the council of his will and determining all things.

          God can use the greed and evil of Judas heart toward good ends but that is very different than saying God determined Judas evil

          let alone all the evil thoughts and desires of men
          God uses the same word Ra to describe creating good and evil, as he uses in the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. God did not create the tree of the knowledge of good and calamity; he created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil...
          New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

          I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sketo View Post
            Does God ordain evil? Reference list!”
            Isaiah 45:7 was left out.
            Isaiah 45:5-7
            "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Does God determine all of man's evil acts. Not according to the bible

            1 John 2:16; James 1:13-14; Jeremiah 19:5; Jeremiah 32:35; Jeremiah 7:31; James 3:14-17 (KJV)

            BTW it would be an equivocation to confound disaster with all of man's evil actions which are not determined by God
            Logic is not your strong suit, is it? Nothing you've just post precludes God from ordaining evil. At best you've presented one set of scriptures against another and failed to reconcile two seemingly disparate verses that synthesize into a congruous whole without any conflict whatsoever. At worse the goal posts were moved based on an insinuated false dichotomy has been asserted, built on a straw man = the op says "ordain," but you've changed that to "determine." The only time the op mentions the word "determine" are the two verses in which God Himself uses that word.

            I don't believe Sketo, bruiser, nor I would deny the truth of the six verses you've listed. Nor will any other Calvinists that weighs in on this op. We will hold both sets true, not pit them against one another.
            "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3.1)
            I have posted this to you several times. Why is it hard to grasp Calvinism is not determinism? Why is it hard to grasp what God ordains does not cause violence to the creature's will? Why is it necessary for you to remain contentious even after being presented with such evidence? Why misrepresent Calvinism amidst plain, clear evidence? Why move the goal posts and assert false dichotomies? How is it you think no one notices? How is it you don't notice the fallacies yourself? When bruiser writes about "soft determinism" is his sincerity doubted? Why is what he posted construed to be hard determinism when he so often repeated "soft"?


            Why should anyone bother spending a single moment or a single pixel on such dross when we all know - including you - your next post won't be collaborative or in any way shape or form accept and acknowledge the errors you've just committed both scripturally and logically?
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

              God uses the same word Ra to describe creating good and evil, as he uses in the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. God did not create the tree of the knowledge of good and calamity; he created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil...
              Tom notes

              I really do not see how that addresses what I stated

              It would be a wrong approach to confound calamity or what are referred to as acts of God with man's evil will and desires

              And there is a great difference between working all things according to the council of his will and determining all things.

              God can use the greed and evil of Judas heart toward good ends but that is very different than saying God determined Judas evil

              let alone all the evil thoughts and desires of men
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                Isaiah 45:7 was left out.
                Isaiah 45:5-7
                "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
                Logic is not your strong suit, is it? Nothing you've just post precludes God from ordaining evil. At best you've presented one set of scriptures against another and failed to reconcile two seemingly disparate verses that synthesize into a congruous whole without any conflict whatsoever. At worse the goal posts were moved based on an insinuated false dichotomy has been asserted, built on a straw man = the op says "ordain," but you've changed that to "determine." The only time the op mentions the word "determine" are the two verses in which God Himself uses that word.

                I don't believe Sketo, bruiser, nor I would deny the truth of the six verses you've listed. Nor will any other Calvinists that weighs in on this op. We will hold both sets true, not pit them against one another.
                "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established." (WCF 3.1)
                I have posted this to you several times. Why is it hard to grasp Calvinism is not determinism? Why is it hard to grasp what God ordains does not cause violence to the creature's will? Why is it necessary for you to remain contentious even after being presented with such evidence? Why misrepresent Calvinism amidst plain, clear evidence? Why move the goal posts and assert false dichotomies? How is it you think no one notices? How is it you don't notice the fallacies yourself? When bruiser writes about "soft determinism" is his sincerity doubted? Why is what he posted construed to be hard determinism when he so often repeated "soft"?


                Why should anyone bother spending a single moment or a single pixel on such dross when we all know - including you - your next post won't be collaborative or in any way shape or form accept and acknowledge the errors you've just committed both scripturally and logically?
                Tom replies

                I guess I could say the same about you

                A logical contradiction is a logical contradiction

                If you say God determines all things then God determines the pride of life, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes etc that lead men to sin

                Hello

                The bible states those things are not from God

                Further despite your claim many Calvinist freely admit they believe in determinism either hard or soft

                You should spend more time thinking about your affirmations and less time trying to insult those who disagree with you

                BTW you did not post that to me but others

                It does not mean I am obliged to accept your reasoning

                Finally I addressed my comments to all those who claim God determines all things and left open the possibility that some may not hold that view



                Last edited by TomL; 02-06-19, 11:45 AM.
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                  Psalm 139:16 - “...in Your book were all written the days that were ordained for me, when as yet there was not one of them.”
                  That HE pre-ordains OUR LIVES before we are born is NOT PROOF HE ordains our FATES or creates us evil when we were elected before the foundation of the world.


                  Psalm 135:6 - “Whatever the Lord pleases, He does....”
                  To be pleased with creating our evil He would have to be pleased with the consequenecs of that evil and HE TAKES NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED!


                  Proverbs 16:33 - “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.”
                  This applies to a sinners life, not the decisons of the ingeuous innocent person with a free will BEFORE they sinned and were subsequently sown into the world.


                  Isaiah 46:10 - “...My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure.”
                  HIS purpose was to marry HIS Bride...which is absoutely contrary to the idea that HE creates HER digustingly evil. HIS good pleasure was that we choose to put our faith in HIM or against HIM so that HIS marriage purposal can be fulfilled since a forced marriage is no marriage at all.


                  Acts 17:26 - “...[God] determined their [all nations’] appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation.”
                  An earthly reference for sinners, not those with a free will pre-earth being asked to respond to the gospel and HIS proposal of marriage.


                  Romans 8:28 - “And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God....”
                  This is about the the fact that the painful disciple of the sinful elect after regeneration is NOT a judgement (Heb 12:5-11) as sinful believers are never condmned, Jn 3:18.


                  Ephesians 1:11 - “...[God] works all things after the counsel of His will.”
                  ...and the counsel of HIS will CANNOT be that HE be a house divided (which cannot stand, Matt 12:25) and create that which HE hates, ie, evil. The verse is perfect; your interepretation is not as it is theolgicaly biased to demean HIS perfections.
                  I champion GOD’s holiness:
                  - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                  - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                  I champion Our Free will:
                  - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    I guess I could say the same about you
                    Not without evidence. Sans evidence it would just be a baseless accusation bearing false witness proving you both disobedient and the posts irrational.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    A logical contradiction is a logical contradiction
                    Yes, it is. I completely agree, but you have not ever proven such a contradiction exists in Calvinism. It has often been imagined but never proven. When we read baseless claims our request for evidence and proof soon follows and the response is invariably posts like this: non sequitur.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    If you say God determines all things then God determines the pride of life, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes etc that lead men to sin
                    You are again, 1) moving the goal posts by replacing "ordain" with "determine" and 2) misrepresenting Calvinism.

                    I never said God determines all things. I said God ordains all things and I said He ordains all things without causing violence to human will. If and when you say I say anything different you are not being truthful. When you make arguments based on that misrepresentation it is called a straw man. Straw men are always and everywhere fallacious; they are not an argument for or against anything. They are also always pure acts of flesh; never inspired.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    Hello
                    Hi.

                    The empty rhetoric gets you nowhere but it works to evidence a lack of ability and sincerity.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    The bible states those things are not from God
                    Context, TomL, context.

                    All things come from God, but not all tings come directly from God. Whether direct consequence of one of His causal acts or a constituent function of God's design all things are from God. Without God none of this would exist and we wouldn't be trading posts. Context.

                    God did not make Adam disobey God but God did make it possible for Adam to disobey God. God also made the consequences of sin immediate, pervasive, total, and deadly. Death is the ultimate determinism, yes? God saves. God also kills. God also made it possible to have those consequences of disobedience and imperfection changed in Christ. God could be deterministic and tyrannical but He (most often) chooses not to be so.... even as He has ordained all things prior to creation without causing violence to the human will or secondary causes. God made the consequences of sin deterministic. Sin didn't ask your permission when it corrupted every fiber of your being. God made it so humans would be tempted by their own desires, but God did not make it so they would be tempted only by their own desires. We should not make a fallacy of construction (from part to whole) when reading that verse.

                    All in all the problems in your op-reply - your problem - of conflating "ordain" with "determine" have not changed. Until that is done your dissent will always be fallacious and incorrect.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    Further despite your claim many Calvinist freely admit they believe in determinism either hard or soft
                    So what? You are a Pelagian who imagines himself Arminian. You don't just screw up Calvinism, you also screw up Arminianism! The most common, frequently occurring problem occurring in this board is Cals and Arms misrepresenting their own soteriology! Yes, some Cals do construe Calvinism to be determinism. They do so in error. Yes, many Arminians construe Arminianism to be autonomy. They do so in error.

                    This is why I so often show you the WCF or quote Calvin himself to you. These are the authoritative sources of Calvinism that demonstrated the positions of Calvinist soteriology. Anyone - whether Cal or Arm - who misunderstands or misrepresents these sources is not presenting Calvinism correctly. That is just as true of you as it is the strict determinist.

                    And the only way you would know that is to be correctly informed about Calvinism. And you, TomL, are not even close.
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    You should spend more time thinking about your...
                    Foolishness. The board is expressly for the debate between the two competing soteriologies. I've shown you the flaws in your position; you have not shown any in mine. You have imagined errors, but never evidenced nor proven any. Your entire dissent is based on the minority of Calvinists who themselves don't fully understand Calvin. The irony is that makes you more like them, those you complain about, than anyone who correctly understands and articulates Calvinism. You and they share the same error!
                    Originally posted by TomL View Post
                    Finally I addressed my comments to all those who claim God determines all things and left open the possibility that some may not hold that view
                    No you didn't, and that's a cop out. There is nothing in that op-reply that directs or "addresses" any of it solely to the determinists. bruiser took your bait, but he's wise enough to catch on eventually and even he didn't assert the kind of strict determinism you incorrectly imagine Calvinism to be.

                    And while you might have imagined you were addressing you comments to the determinists, that would also make you off-topic from this op. You're still guilty of moving the goal posts by replacing "ordain" with "determine."



                    And.... you've just wasted a post and not addressed a single op-relevant concern in my post to you:
                    Accept the fact Calvinism teaches God ordains all things without causing violence to human will or secondary causes.

                    Acknowledge the conflation between ordain and determine.

                    Acknowledge the misrepresentation of Calvinism.

                    Acknowledge the two sets of verses posted reconcile quite nicely into a congruous whole.

                    Acknowledge the fact Calvinists accept both sets of scripture.

                    Acknowledge the refusal to accept the facts in evidence.

                    Or don't. But know that no one here finds a single word of that op-reply veracious. It is laden with errors and you and I have just exchanged one pair of posts and you didn't deal with a single one of them. What should we expect from you, TomL? Should we expect nothing more from you than baseless accusations laden with fallacy? Or shall we expect some degree of engagement? Shall we expect self-correction of blatant and undeniable error, or not? Shall we expect any commitment to iron sharpening iron, or are you about dulling the edges? The former kind of friction is affirmed in scripture; the latter is decried.
                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      Not without evidence. Sans evidence it would just be a baseless accusation bearing false witness proving you both disobedient and the posts irrational.

                      Yes, it is. I completely agree, but you have not ever proven such a contradiction exists in Calvinism. It has often been imagined but never proven. When we read baseless claims our request for evidence and proof soon follows and the response is invariably posts like this: non sequitur.

                      You are again, 1) moving the goal posts by replacing "ordain" with "determine" and 2) misrepresenting Calvinism.

                      I never said God determines all things. I said God ordains all things and I said He ordains all things without causing violence to human will. If and when you say I say anything different you are not being truthful. When you make arguments based on that misrepresentation it is called a straw man. Straw men are always and everywhere fallacious; they are not an argument for or against anything. They are also always pure acts of flesh; never inspired.

                      Hi.

                      The empty rhetoric gets you nowhere but it works to evidence a lack of ability and sincerity.

                      Context, TomL, context.

                      All things come from God, but not all tings come directly from God. Whether direct consequence of one of His causal acts or a constituent function of God's design all things are from God. Without God none of this would exist and we wouldn't be trading posts. Context.

                      God did not make Adam disobey God but God did make it possible for Adam to disobey God. God also made the consequences of sin immediate, pervasive, total, and deadly. Death is the ultimate determinism, yes? God saves. God also kills. God also made it possible to have those consequences of disobedience and imperfection changed in Christ. God could be deterministic and tyrannical but He (most often) chooses not to be so.... even as He has ordained all things prior to creation without causing violence to the human will or secondary causes. God made the consequences of sin deterministic. Sin didn't ask your permission when it corrupted every fiber of your being. God made it so humans would be tempted by their own desires, but God did not make it so they would be tempted only by their own desires. We should not make a fallacy of construction (from part to whole) when reading that verse.

                      All in all the problems in your op-reply - your problem - of conflating "ordain" with "determine" have not changed. Until that is done your dissent will always be fallacious and incorrect.

                      So what? You are a Pelagian who imagines himself Arminian. You don't just screw up Calvinism, you also screw up Arminianism! The most common, frequently occurring problem occurring in this board is Cals and Arms misrepresenting their own soteriology! Yes, some Cals do construe Calvinism to be determinism. They do so in error. Yes, many Arminians construe Arminianism to be autonomy. They do so in error.

                      This is why I so often show you the WCF or quote Calvin himself to you. These are the authoritative sources of Calvinism that demonstrated the positions of Calvinist soteriology. Anyone - whether Cal or Arm - who misunderstands or misrepresents these sources is not presenting Calvinism correctly. That is just as true of you as it is the strict determinist.

                      And the only way you would know that is to be correctly informed about Calvinism. And you, TomL, are not even close.

                      Foolishness. The board is expressly for the debate between the two competing soteriologies. I've shown you the flaws in your position; you have not shown any in mine. You have imagined errors, but never evidenced nor proven any. Your entire dissent is based on the minority of Calvinists who themselves don't fully understand Calvin. The irony is that makes you more like them, those you complain about, than anyone who correctly understands and articulates Calvinism. You and they share the same error!

                      No you didn't, and that's a cop out. There is nothing in that op-reply that directs or "addresses" any of it solely to the determinists. bruiser took your bait, but he's wise enough to catch on eventually and even he didn't assert the kind of strict determinism you incorrectly imagine Calvinism to be.

                      And while you might have imagined you were addressing you comments to the determinists, that would also make you off-topic from this op. You're still guilty of moving the goal posts by replacing "ordain" with "determine."



                      And.... you've just wasted a post and not addressed a single op-relevant concern in my post to you:
                      Accept the fact Calvinism teaches God ordains all things without causing violence to human will or secondary causes.

                      Acknowledge the conflation between ordain and determine.

                      Acknowledge the misrepresentation of Calvinism.

                      Acknowledge the two sets of verses posted reconcile quite nicely into a congruous whole.

                      Acknowledge the fact Calvinists accept both sets of scripture.

                      Acknowledge the refusal to accept the facts in evidence.

                      Or don't. But know that no one here finds a single word of that op-reply veracious. It is laden with errors and you and I have just exchanged one pair of posts and you didn't deal with a single one of them. What should we expect from you, TomL? Should we expect nothing more from you than baseless accusations laden with fallacy? Or shall we expect some degree of engagement? Shall we expect self-correction of blatant and undeniable error, or not? Shall we expect any commitment to iron sharpening iron, or are you about dulling the edges? The former kind of friction is affirmed in scripture; the latter is decried.
                      Tom replies

                      Perhaps you should first pay attention to what is stated before you post

                      I prefaced my comments to those who state God determines all things

                      There was no moving of goal posts only your failure to know what you were attacking

                      Now seeing as my comments are to those who claim God determines all thing

                      perhaps you could point out how stating God determines all things which would include the pride of life, the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes that leads men astray and the bibles affirmation those thing are not of God

                      1 John 2:16 (NIV2011)
                      16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world.

                      is not a logical contradiction

                      A cannot equal not A

                      either that or admit you do not have anything to address what I actually stated or the logical reasoning behind my claim

                      I will ignore the rest of your overblown rhetoric





                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Dueling scriptures is demeaning to the sanctity of the Church. Scripture cannot contradict scripture so it is imperative that everyone teaches what your verse means as well as how the other person's verse fails.

                        Otherwise it is just using verses as stones to throw at each other, sigh.
                        I champion GOD’s holiness:
                        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                        - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                        I champion Our Free will:
                        - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                          Dueling scriptures is demeaning to the sanctity of the Church. Scripture cannot contradict scripture so it is imperative that everyone teaches what your verse means as well as how the other person's verse fails.

                          Otherwise it is just using verses as stones to throw at each other, sigh.
                          I completely agree. WCF 3.1 tells everyone what the verses mean from the perspective of Calvinism. So far it is the Calvinists alone affirming both sets of scripture. Do you see anyone on the opposite side doing the same so far?
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by TomL View Post
                            Perhaps you should first pay attention to what is stated before you post. I prefaced my comments to those who state God determines all things. There was no moving of goal posts only your failure to know what you were attacking

                            Now seeing as my comments are to those who claim God determines all thing
                            The problem, TomL, is that no one here has made such a claim. Yes, I read where the post states, "If you say God determines all things then..." but that is your third post. That's not your op reply. In your first two posts no such qualifier is present. It is assumed. It is assumed and asserted irrelevant of the op. In other words, it was asserted as a given in the first two ops and only after having been confronted was it treated as a conditional clause. Even as a conditional clause.....
                            The comments are addressed to people not here. There can be no discussion with people who aren't in attendance.

                            The op made no such claim so the op-reply is off-topic, off the op.

                            The complaint against determinism is applicable solely to a minority of Cals. You're addressing a minority sample who isn't here, not addressing the op or those who are here.

                            Because there are no determinists here (yet), and because those that are a minority and not representative of Calvinism, because the op isn't about determinism you have in fact moved the goal posts, asserted a straw man, and failed to address the flaws in your own op-reply now that they've been brought to your attention.


                            No points are won for highlighting the fact you were addressing determinists after the fact and irrelevant of the op.
                            Originally posted by TomL View Post
                            perhaps you could point out how stating God determines all things which would include the pride of life, the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes that leads men astray and the bibles affirmation those thing are not of God
                            Perhaps you could first show some Calvinist making such claims in a manner consistent with Calvinism as Calvin and the Westminster Confession asserted it. Otherwise, your request is a red herring. You are asking me to do explain something no Calvinist does.

                            That would be an irrational request on your part.

                            I can show you what Calvin said about the three lusts James cites.
                            "Moreover, the love of the world is thus severely condemned, because we must necessarily forget God and ourselves when we regard nothing so much as the earth; and when a corrupt lust of this kind rules in man, and so holds him entangled that he thinks not of the heavenly life, he is possessed by a beastly stupidity.

                            If any man love the world He proves by an argument from what is contrary, how necessary it is to cast away the love of the world, if we wish to please God; and this he afterwards confirms by an argument drawn from what is inconsistent; for what belongs to the world is wholly at variance with God. We must bear in mind what I have already said, that a corrupt mode of life is here mentioned, which has nothing in common with the kingdom of God, that is, when men become so degenerated, that they are satisfied with the present life, and think no more of immortal life than mute animals. Whosoever, then, makes himself thus a slave to earthly lusts, cannot be of God.

                            16 The lust of the flesh, or, namely, the lust of the flesh. The old interpreter renders the verse otherwise, for from one sentence he makes two. Those Greek authors do better, who read these words together, "Whatever is in the world is not of God;" and then the three kinds of lusts they introduce parenthetically. For John, by way of explanation, inserted these three particulars as examples, that he might briefly shew what are the pursuits and thoughts of men who live for the world; but whether it be a full and complete division, it does not signify much; though you will not find a worldly man in whom these lusts do not prevail, at least one of them. It remains for us to see what he understands by each of these.

                            The first clause is commonly explained of all sinful lusts in general; for the flesh means the whole corrupt nature of man. Though I am unwilling to contend, yet I am unwilling to dissemble that I approve of another meaning. Paul, when forbidding, in Romans 13:14, to make provision for the flesh as to its lusts, seems to me to be the best interpreter of this place. What, then, is the flesh there? even the body and all that belongs to it. What, then, is the lust or desire of the flesh, but when worldly men, seeking to live softly and delicately, are intent only on their own advantages? Well known from Cicero and others, is the threefold division made by Epicurus; for he made this difference between lusts; he made some natural and necessary, some natural and not necessary, and some neither natural nor necessary. But John, well knowing the insubordination (ataxia)of the human heart unhesitantly condemns the lust of the flesh, because it always flows out immoderately, and never observes any due medium. He afterwards comes gradually to grosser vices.

                            The lust of the eyes He includes, as I think, libidinous looks as well as the vanity which delights in pomps and empty splendor.

                            In the last place follows pride or haughtiness; with which is connected ambition, boasting, contempt of others, blind love of self, headstrong self-confidence.

                            The sum of the whole is, that as soon as the world presents itself, our lusts or desires, when our heart is corrupt, are captivated by it, like unbridled wild beasts; so that various lusts, all which are adverse to God, bear rule in us. The Greek word, bios rendered life, (vita,) means the way or manner of living.

                            17 And the world passeth away As there is nothing in the world but what is fading, and as it were for a moment, he hence concludes that they who seek their happiness from it, make a wretched and miserable provision for themselves, especially when God calls us to the ineffable glory of eternal life; as though he had said, "The true happiness which God offers to his children, is eternal; it is then a shameful thing for us to be entangled with the world, which with all its benefits will soon vanish away." I take lust here metonymically, as signifying what is desired or coveted, or what captivates the desires of men. The meaning is, that what is most precious in the world and deemed especially desirable, is nothing but a shadowy phantom."
                            (Calvin's commentary on James)

                            So anyone - self-styled Calvinist, or not - who argues differently isn't accurately portraying Calvinism. I post evidence. I post scripture uniformly affirmed, I post authoritative documents, I post Calvin. You? Not even a little. Not even being asked to do so.



                            No overblown rhetoric required.
                            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              [QUOTE=Josheb;n5811297]
                              The problem, TomL, is that no one here has made such a claim. Yes, I read where the post states, "If you say God determines all things then..." but that is your third post. That's not your op reply. In your first two posts no such qualifier is present. It is assumed. It is assumed and asserted irrelevant of the op. In other words, it was asserted as a given in the first two ops and only after having been confronted was it treated as a conditional clause. Even as a conditional clause.....

                              **/QUOTE]

                              Tom replies

                              sorry but you are mistaken. Some have indeed stated just that.

                              and my first reply was

                              Tom replies

                              Does God determine all of man's evil acts. Not according to the bible

                              1 John 2:16 (KJV)
                              16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

                              James 1:13-14 (KJV)
                              13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
                              14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

                              Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)
                              5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

                              Jeremiah 32:35 (KJV)
                              35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

                              Jeremiah 7:31 (KJV)
                              31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

                              James 3:14-17 (KJV)
                              14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
                              15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
                              16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
                              17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

                              BTW it would be an equivocation to confound disaster with all of man's evil actions which are not determined by God


                              again showing I was speaking of determinism

                              and it would be a logical contradiction to state God determines all things when the bible states certain things already mentioned are not from God





                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X