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  • #16
    Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post
    You know that we're Sola Scripturists, and a primary definition of it is that the Bible is the highest and final arbiter of all spiritual disputes...

    Pentecostalism is not...
    I believe that "sola scriptura" reveals the LETTER of the scriptures. But only the Holy Ghost (Comforter) can teach understanding of what the scriptures mean,1Cor 2:10, 13. To believe what is revealed is to be enlightened but to be saved is to understand.

    skypair

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by skypair View Post
      A Calvinist could not have chosen NOT to believe the gospel, eh? And not to receive regeneration, salvation, faith, etc. How would they prove such a thing?

      skypair
      Not so. I actually chose not to believe until, by the grace of God, I was granted repentance and the gift of faith. God is good

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
        ...
        I choose to believe the gospel throughout every day.
        Freewill or meticulous decree?
        1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          Really? So Christians can't choose not to believe God? or not to believe in Jesus Christ?
          Nope. Not possible.
          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          How do you know you have received regeneration? Do you know that if you believe the gospel and the Bible, that you have received the Spirit of God .. but are still not saved?**
          I just got done telling you no one can prove an eternal disposition this side of the grave.

          Evidence is in: you haven't a clue what you're posting about and you are not reading my responses with any degree of thought.
          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          Maybe .. but...
          No "Maybe... but..."

          May will come to Jesus and tell of their miraculous deeds only to be turned away because they were not known. They think themselves in service to Christ but they are not. Those who know and are known know they know and are known but they cannot prove that to another.
          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          I thought about that .. but I decided that there is a difference between belief and faith that might be missed by those who answer. Sure, we know that those who believe are convinced to believe .. but they can choose not to put their faith in Christ ..
          Fail. The Matthew 7:21-23 group had faith in Christ but they were not saved.
          Originally posted by skypair View Post
          instead choosing to believe their own theology.
          That is a topic completely different than the claim a Calvinist could not have chosen NOT to believe the gospel and not to receive regeneration, salvation, faith, etc.



          And when you are authentically interested in understanding how absurd this op is I will gladly explain it to you on one condition: when I have explained it to you you post a public repentance for 1) posting a nonsensical op that could have been recognized as such by someone with your faculties and 2) the Cal-negging. You willing to take that risk? Or maybe you've already realized the problem and might wanna maybe bow out now and move on to posters who will argue this nonsense with you ala Gal. 5:20 and Tit 3:10-11. Or maybe, having realized the flaw, you'll have enough integrity to repent proactively.
          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
            Freewill or meticulous decree?
            Neither. Brought from life to death, from slavery to sin to slavery to righteousness. There is no freedom in either condition but there is vastly greater and substantively different liberty in the latter over the former. Whereas whence a sinfully dead slave I was incapable of choosing God soteriologically, having been converted I have been commissioned into service to God and empowered to do so. Furthermore, with this conversion comes sonship the dead slave to sin does not know, cannot known, and cannot understand. Ignorance is never freedom. Only the ignorant think so.


            You've asked the wrong question, one that has no relevance to the op, my op-reply, one that is framed in a false dichotomy. Note the conditions of believing the gospel, regeneration, salvation, faith, etc. are assumed and stipulated as givens in the op.
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by skypair View Post
              I believe that "sola scriptura" reveals the LETTER of the scriptures. But only the Holy Ghost (Comforter) can teach understanding of what the scriptures mean,1Cor 2:10, 13. To believe what is revealed is to be enlightened but to be saved is to understand.

              skypair
              You mean like the phrase, "The horn blows at midnight" means "skypairianism is true"?

              You think the Holy Ghost is some sort of "Code Book", that gives secret meanings that aren't present in text itself?

              (Hmm... I'm suddenly wondering why you think you can understand my response, since you don't have the "Theo1689 Codebook", so how can you possibly understand what I'm writing? And how can I understand what you're writing, since I don't have the "skypair codebook"?)

              Or maybe... Just maybe... Words have meaning, and language is sufficient to explain God's message?
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                Really? So Christians can't choose not to believe God? or not to believe in Jesus Christ?
                Christians, before they became Christians, couldn't close to believe God.
                John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, John 3:3, etc.

                Salvation comes through GOD'S choice (ie. "election", eg. Eph. 1:4ff), not "man's choice".

                How do you know you have received regeneration?
                Well, my first reaction is that I don't understand why you think we are obligated to "prove" this to you, since YOU haven't proved to us that YOU "have received regeneration".

                My second reaction to your question is that I basically DON'T CARE whether you think we're regenerated or not. Your opinion doesn't matter. It's only God's opinion that matters. So you are free to believe that we aren't regenerated, if that's what you want to believe. It doesn't seem like a very "charitable" opinion for you to hold, but whatever.... Only Christians are required to be charitable.

                My third response is that I (I can't speak for my brothers) have received the Holy Ghost as a guarantee. And since you don't have my personal experience, you are unable to dispute that.

                Case closed.

                Do you know that if you believe the gospel and the Bible, that you have received the Spirit of God .. but are still not saved?
                Do you know that we don't accept your false teachings?

                Man-made theologies stick out like sore thumbs.
                That's how we know to reject yours.

                I thought about that .. but I decided that there is a difference between belief and faith that might be missed by those who answer.
                I'm not sure why you think anyone should care about what you "decided".
                You are not the source of God's truth.
                The BIBLE is.

                Sure, we know that those who believe are convinced to believe .. but they can choose not to put their faith in Christ .. instead choosing to believe their own theology.
                <sigh>

                I believe I've already explained this to you 8-10 times already...
                Calvinists don't believe we are saved by "their own theology".
                Calvinists' salvation comes from Christ's completed work on the cross.
                That's why we believe that Arminians are also saved by Christ's completed work on the cross.
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                  ... Whereas whence a sinfully dead slave I was incapable of choosing God soteriologically, ...
                  I don't think anyone here thinks they chose God; God chooses those who fear God and believe his witnesses.


                  Note the conditions of believing the gospel, regeneration, salvation, faith, etc. are assumed and stipulated as givens in the op.
                  You believe one needs to be regenerated in order to believe the gospel?

                  1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by PeanutGallery View Post
                    I don't think anyone here thinks they chose God; God chooses those who fear God and believe his witnesses.
                    So they actually DO "chose God" (according to you) by "choosing to fear God", and "choosing to believe his witnesses".

                    You believe one needs to be regenerated in order to believe the gospel?
                    Well, since faith is a GIFT of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, etc.), it's pretty hard for someone to believe if they haven't been GIVEN faith by God.
                    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                      You think the Holy Ghost is some sort of "Code Book", that gives secret meanings that aren't present in text itself?

                      Or maybe... Just maybe... Words have meaning, and language is sufficient to explain God's message?
                      Yes,"Words have meaning." And if you say they mean something that they don't, then it is impossible to get the true meaning of the text. Jn 3:!6 and "whosoever" and "world" come immediately to mind. We've talked just recently about Ro 9:1-19 and 2Pet 3:9 wherein you have come up with some imaginative ideas of the context wherein, in the last instance, "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" is taken to mean something entirely different than scripture and than most Christians believe.

                      This shows more familiarity with theology than with scriptural meanings.

                      skypair

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by skypair View Post
                        Yes,"Words have meaning." And if you say they mean something that they don't, then it is impossible to get the true meaning of the text. Jn 3:!6 and "whosoever" and "world" come immediately to mind.
                        Exactly.

                        And NO DICTIONARY in the WORLD defines "world" as "every single individual".
                        So YOU are the one redefining the term.

                        And the phrase is John 3:16 is NOT simply "whosoever", it is "whosoever BELIEVETH", and so that EXPLICITLY EXCLUDES those who do not believe, so again we see that YOU are the one misinterpreting the verse.


                        We've talked just recently about Ro 9:1-19 and 2Pet 3:9 wherein you have come up with some imaginative ideas of the context wherein, in the last instance, "not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance" is taken to mean something entirely different than scripture and than most Christians believe.
                        Not the least bit "imaginative".
                        We are the ones STUDYING THE CONTEXT.
                        YOU are the ones IGNORING the context:

                        2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                        The context of this passage is the "beloved", the "us-ward".

                        No "imagination" required.
                        It is RIGHT THERE IN THE TEXT.

                        This shows more familiarity with theology than with scriptural meanings.
                        That's an accurate confession you're giving.

                        So I encourage you to stop basing your understanding on your "theology", and stick instead to SCRIPTURAL MEANINGS, like Calvinists do.
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                          Christians, before they became Christians, couldn't close to believe God.
                          John 6:44, Rom. 8:7-8, 1 Cor. 2:14, John 3:3, etc.

                          Salvation comes through GOD'S choice (ie. "election", eg. Eph. 1:4ff), not "man's choice".
                          See, again you are confusing belief with faith. We don't really "choose" to believe .. we either believe or we don't. There is that kind of believing that happens because we are raised in a Christian culture, theo. Many people raised in this culture think they are saved b/c they kind of were given salvation.

                          It's only God's opinion that matters.
                          I think anyone who is regenerated can know if someone understands the basics of scripture .. like salvation. For instance, someone who believes that Acts 2:36-40 is the gospel of Jesus Christ is going to know that Eph 2:8-10 isn't the gospel.

                          My third response is that I (I can't speak for my brothers) have received the Holy Ghost as a guarantee. And since you don't have my personal experience, you are unable to dispute that.

                          Case closed.
                          Well, not quite. We haven't heard you say when and how you received the Holy Ghost and it does appear that you don't know how and when you did. To wit: there is a big debate among Calvinists over whether everything was given simultaneously with belief or whether there is a logical chronology to salvation.

                          Calvinists' salvation comes from Christ's completed work on the cross.
                          That's why we believe that Arminians are also saved by Christ's completed work on the cross.
                          So what about those who repent unto salvation?

                          skypair

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post
                            He was being Clever; at least that's how I took it...
                            Oops, Sorry CrossCrow.

                            skypair

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by skypair View Post
                              See, again you are confusing belief with faith.
                              See, again you are making a false distinction between "πιστις" and "πιστις".

                              We don't really "choose" to believe .. we either believe or we don't. There is that kind of believing that happens because we are raised in a Christian culture, theo. Many people raised in this culture think they are saved b/c they kind of were given salvation.
                              I'm sorry, you seem to be confusing me with someone who is actually INTERESTED in your false teachings.
                              I'm not.

                              I think anyone who is regenerated can know if someone understands the basics of scripture .. like salvation.
                              And what "understanding" would THAT be?
                              YOUR understanding?
                              So basically, you make yourself the ultimate standard of God's truth, and everyone who agrees with you is "Regenerated", and everyone who disagrees with your OPINION is NOT "regenerated".
                              And that's not really realistic.

                              But in a sense I agree with you.
                              I am regenerated.
                              And I can easily see that you DON'T "understand the basics of scripture".

                              For instance, someone who believes that Acts 2:36-40 is the gospel of Jesus Christ is going to know that Eph 2:8-10 isn't the gospel.
                              In your opinion.
                              We're not interested in your OPINION.

                              Well, not quite. We haven't heard you say when and how you received the Holy Ghost and it does appear that you don't know how and when you did.
                              I'm not obligated to defend myself to the likes of you.

                              Your claim that I "don't know how" I received the Holy Ghost is false.
                              Please apologize, and please cease making false claims about me in the future.

                              Your claim that I "don't know when" I received the Holy Ghost is false.
                              Please apologize, and please cease making false claims about me in the future.

                              To wit: there is a big debate among Calvinists over whether everything was given simultaneously with belief or whether there is a logical chronology to salvation.
                              That's simply not true.

                              So what about those who repent unto salvation?
                              So what about the fact that I've REPEATEDLY explained to you that I"m NOT INTERESTED in a "discussion" with you.
                              That means that I'm not going to waste my time answering your "questions".
                              Because you see, that would lead to a "discussion", and as I've already pointed out (about six hundred million times), I'm NOT INTERESTED in having a "discussion" with you.
                              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                                Exactly.

                                And NO DICTIONARY in the WORLD defines "world" as "every single individual".
                                So YOU are the one redefining the term.

                                And the phrase is John 3:16 is NOT simply "whosoever", it is "whosoever BELIEVETH", and so that EXPLICITLY EXCLUDES those who do not believe, so again we see that YOU are the one misinterpreting the verse.



                                Not the least bit "imaginative".
                                We are the ones STUDYING THE CONTEXT.
                                YOU are the ones IGNORING the context:

                                2Pet. 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                                The context of this passage is the "beloved", the "us-ward".

                                No "imagination" required.
                                It is RIGHT THERE IN THE TEXT.



                                That's an accurate confession you're giving.

                                So I encourage you to stop basing your understanding on your "theology", and stick instead to SCRIPTURAL MEANINGS, like Calvinists do.
                                Tom notes

                                seeing as you made mention of an English word World

                                All these are sufficient
                                world

                                Bing
                                1. the world)

                                  the earth, together with all of its countries, peoples, and natural features.
                                  "he was doing his bit to save the world"
                                  synonyms:
                                  earth · globe · planet · sphere
                                  • (the world)

                                    all of the people, societies, and institutions on the earth.


                                    Merriam Webster
                                    The whole body of living persons

                                    Dictionary.com
                                    humankind; the human race; humanity:

                                    free dictionary
                                    a. The earth, especially together with the life it supports: a

                                    Oxford Living
                                    usually the worldThe earth, together with all of its countries and peoples.

                                    Cambridge
                                    the earth and all the people, places, and things on it:

                                    Regarding

                                    2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
                                    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                                    Even Calvin does not agree with you

                                    Not willing that any should perish.
                                    So wonderful is his love towards mankind, that he would have them all to be saved, and is of his own self prepared to bestow salvation on the lost. But the order is to be noticed, that God is ready to receive all to repentance, so that none may perish; for in these words the way and manner of obtaining salvation is pointed out. Every one of us, therefore, who is desirous of salvation, must learn to enter in by this way.

                                    Or the Presbyterian Barnes

                                    Not willing that any should perish. That is, he does not desire it or wish it. His nature is benevolent, and he sincerely desires the eternal happiness of all, and his patience towards sinners proves that he is willing that they should be saved. If he were not willing, it would be easy for him to cut them off, and exclude them from hope at once. This passage, however, should not be adduced to prove

                                    Barnes' Notes on the New Testament.

                                    or the Calvinist JFB
                                    any—not desiring that any, yea, even that the scoffers, should perish, which would be the result if He did not give space for repentance.

                                    A Commentary: Critical, Experimental, and Practical on the Old and New Testaments.

                                    and as I have been telling you long suffering is not something that is needed in a monergistic world view


                                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                                Comment

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