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  • #76
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Then you should be able to show how it was misrepresented and how quotes provided do not show what is claimed

    I am waiting
    She has. So did I.

    Hasn't made a bit of difference.... proving not only a misrepresentation of both scripture and Calvinism but a refusal to change in the face of evidence.

    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post
      You have not proved a thing, and you do misrepresent reformed theology.

      [video]
      Excellent video.

      However, I must correct one error: the kind of dual-mindedness to which he alludes is not schizophrenia, it is dissociation (dissociation, not disassociation). The problem label for the diagnosis of multiple personalities is Dissociative Identity Disorder, not Schizophrenia. Common mistake.


      Otherwise that guy is spot on. The relevant audience is those who already believe. The context is eschatological and the fulfillment of OT prophesies in Peter's era. The passage repeatedly asserts God as causal, but not once appeals to human volition.
      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
        She has. So did I.

        Hasn't made a bit of difference.... proving not only a misrepresentation of both scripture and Calvinism but a refusal to change in the face of evidence.
        Tom replies

        Again talk is cheap. Show real examples. Show how they were not consistent with quotes

        Regarding your claim

        …........................................

        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
        . Why is it hard to grasp Calvinism is not determinism?


        Tom asks

        Can we not believe what Calvinists themselves say

        One of the foremost Calvinist today (I am told)

        Calvinistic Pastor, Dr. John Piper, teaches:



        “God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child… in John Piper and Justin Taylor (eds.), Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 31-77 (quote from p. 42).

        John Hendryx a Calvinist notes

        for example states

        the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism

        voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise

        In other words man can only do what God has previously determined

        Audio transcript


        How do we know that God always controls everything
        ? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Desiring God website


        Calvinist sites affirming even soft determinism is as deterministic as hard determinism

        Compatibilism. It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures.
        Compatibilism | Monergism


        www.monergism.com/topics/free-will/compatibilism



        Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass (Eph 1:11)… Reformation theology online website


        A number of Calvinist posters here spoke of soft determinism

        One even stated God determines all things while affirming man makes choices

        That is soft determinism

        That poster was you

        This is not a slam of Calvinists nor is it an insult

        Nor is it misrepresentation

        It is simply an acknowledgement of what Calvinists have stated


        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          Again talk is cheap.
          That is right. That is exactly right.

          All you do is talk.
          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          Show real examples. Show how they were not consistent with quotes
          Already done. Countless times.
          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          Tom asks
          You don't get to ask any more questions until you deal with the facts in evidence:

          1) You abuse scripture, often and repeatedly.

          2) You quote-mine Calvinists, often and repeatedly.

          3) You refuse to acknowledge either error when shown to be incorrect.
          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          A number of Calvinist posters here spoke of soft determinism. One even stated God determines all things while affirming man makes choices. That is soft determinism.
          Yes, they did.

          None of them denied real choices, though, did they?



          EDIT .personal comments. You will accept only half of the Calvinist position despite repeated and consistent and uniform correction by Calvin and other Calvinists. You think God's ordaining and human will are antithetical oto one another despite the repeated affirmation of both by Calvin and other Calvinists AND you have unabashedly and blatantly refused any and all offers to have it explained to you.

          EDIT .personal comments


          And there you will stay until you taken and honest and sincere look at what Calvin actually taught and not what you imagine is taught in the feeble little scripture-abusing Calvinist-quote-mining thinking we see constantly posted in this board.


          Talk is cheap. Try actually showing up for a discussion sometime. Start with the fact this op isn't about how a person gets saved but what can or can't happen after he gets saved. EDIT .personal comments

          EDIT .personal comments
          Last edited by Mod8; 02-15-19, 12:28 PM. Reason: post to the issue
          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
            That is right. That is exactly right.

            All you do is talk.

            .
            tom replies

            No evidence. No response regarding what was written. No rebuttal but

            Rhetoric and Ad hominem

            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              I have already posted what eternal security is about. It is about God, not human. Misunderstanding that is an error, a misrepresentation of the concept.
              If it

              What you're asking is can a condition that God has seen fit to make happen (whether aided by human volition or not) can be changed (merely, solely) by human choice. What you are asking is can someone who has experienced an undeniable, irrefutable actual factual experience choose not to believe it happened once having believed it did happen as it factually occurred. What you are asking is can that actually changed person choose not to believe what every memory cell in his brain contains. Can s/he choose not to believe what is organically recorded in his own body on a cellular level.
              Yeah, the question that arrises is whether God did make you have an experience whereby you could not reject the gospel. You are saying that the process of salvation didn't involve you except as a recipient of something you took to be the regeneration and the salvation experience. So was that experience like that of John Wesley .. a "warming" in your heart? Ia that what made it so that you couldn't refuse to believe?

              [quote[What you are asking is can the dead person who has been brought from death into life choose to be dead again by counteracting or overcoming and defeating spiritual regeneration that occurs by divine might - can that be accomplished by a (mere) decision? What you are asking is "Can God's work be erased, eradicated, or otherwise undone so easily?"

              What you are asking is can the person God has saved choose not to be saved once God has applied the blood of Christ in purchase of that person and make that purchase invalid or worthless. What you are asking is can the believing, regenerate, saved and faithful person render the work of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit a if it never happened.

              What is being presuppositionally suggested is that such a person would want to make such a choice[/quote]
              As you can see, I wasn't asking any of these. Only whether a person who has had the regeneration experience you speak of turn around and not believe the gospel .. as in believe a false gospel, for instance.

              A god whose work can be undone that easily is not a God, and most certainly isn;t the God of the Bible.
              See, now you are starting to understand the OP, aren't you. And why I asked it of Calvinists, eh?

              Which needn't be the end of the discussion but it does indicate the need for you to take a different, more teachable and collaborative posture.
              Like you are .. sure. I can. And you say…?

              People can choose to deny that which they know, but they don't stop knowing it just because they stopped believing it is so. The condition in which people deny undeniable reality is called delusion. Despite your impulse to the contrary Calvinism has nothing to do with delusion. It is a set of positions that simply and solely emphasize the sovereignty of God and the scripturally-driven logical necessities thereof.
              I think you need to give Calvinism some credit for the delusion, josh.

              skypair

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                Yeah, the question that arrises is whether God did make you have an experience whereby you could not reject the gospel.
                The op is yours.

                because the op is yours to assert, yours to clarify, yours to defend, yours to change, yours to concede, or even yours to discard if the discussion warrants you can change your inquiry but you cannot do it claiming you said something you didn't actually say. The question this op actually asks is not, "Did God make you have an experience whereby you could not reject the gospel." That would be you moving the goal posts.

                But either way I have already answered and addressed both questions. What I posted preemptively covers your change of inquiry.
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                You are saying that the process of salvation didn't involve you except as a recipient of something you took to be the regeneration and the salvation experience.
                That is just a pile of dross for which you should repent.

                I have never posted any such thing. I have instead countless and repeatedly stating something very, very different from that, beginning with the distinction between conversion and salvation and the scriptural fact conversion takes a moment but salvation takes a lifetime. Your failure to understand that is the problem to be solved. And when you put on me things I don't actually believe that makes your problem worse because straw men will never get you where you need to be on this topic.
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                As you can see, I wasn't asking any of these. Only whether a person who has had the regeneration experience you speak of turn around and not believe the gospel .. as in believe a false gospel, for instance.
                None of which is stated in this op. It is you who have moved the goal posts, skypair.

                What you may have wanted to ask is one thing but what you actually asked is another. Take ownership of the op. If you're going to now ask a different question at least have sufficient integrity to acknowledge what was asked was not what was intended and then do it iwthout blaming others.
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                See, now you are starting to understand the OP, aren't you. And why I asked it of Calvinists, eh?
                Well, since Calvinists believe God is sovereign in all things and Calvinists believe God has ordained all things from creation without causing violence to human will or secondary causes and because Calvinists don't believe anything humans do can ever overrule God none of your misguided straw men apply to Calvinism or the hypothetical Calvinist in this op.

                That Calvinists, like all other human beings, is gonna walk away from his denial knowing either it was never real in the first place or it is real and he can't walk away from it. The idea he can deny God God's work is absurd.
                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                I think you need to give Calvinism some credit for the delusion, josh.
                Yes, I understand that's what you think, skypair. I also understand you think that because you are thoroughly ignorant of what Calvinism actually teaches. I also understand you think that because you have a fundamental failure in understanding a couple of basic facts about the nature of God, not just the nature of sinful humans. I also understand you think that because you haven't a clue what happens on a cellular level when a person is changed by significant experiences.


                Salvation is by definition a life-changing experience.


                Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and Wesley may not have understood how profound is that change, but now that we in modern times know how to deconstruct a cell we know salvation is not spiritual alone.


                And that fact makes this op foolish. No one can rationally deny such change if it did in fact happen and you stipulated those changes as givens. A person can irrationally deny those changes, but that would be delusional.

                If you want to now change the question to whether or not God made salvation deniable you can do that but don't pretend that was the question originally asked.
                All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by TomL View Post
                  tom replies

                  No evidence. No response regarding what was written. No rebuttal but

                  Rhetoric and Ad hominem
                  Evidence proves otherwise.
                  All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                  “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Quote box removed per mod.

                    Is that what happens when they delete your posts?




                    No, my post was edited when and where it borke forum rules. The topical, rule-cmpliant content refuting your position remains.....


                    ...as evidence that proves synergism wrong.
                    Originally posted by TomL
                    Is why I have Calvinists opposing me when I state God does not determine man's sin ?
                    No. Calvinists oppose that because Calvinism teaches God ordains all things from creation without causing violence to human will or secondary causes.


                    You try to prove otherwise by falsely quote-mining Calvinists and then ignoring the evidence when Calvinists post those quotes in their entirety to show everyone the deceptive quote mining.

                    You find the ordaining of God contradictory to a lack of violence to human will but refuse to take up any offers to walk with you through it.



                    That is why Calvinists oppose what we read. We love you, Tom. We oppose the constant misrepresentation of scripture and Calvinism and the failure to practice scripture not just the failure in understanding it.





                    And non sequiturs about the mods and strawmen about Calvinist opposition don't change the fact the evidence proves other than what we read. They serve solely as hypocritical evidence of the protests against rhetoric and ad hominem! How can anyone with one post protest rhetoric and ad hominem and in the very next post write about mods and straw men and think anyone will think there's any integrity in that?


                    Bad form. Really bad form.
                    Last edited by Mod20; 02-16-19, 06:50 PM.
                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      Evidence proves otherwise.
                      tom replies

                      Hardly as the Calvinist opposing my claim God does not determine men's sin clearly shows
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        DELETED
                        Tom replies

                        EDIT two grievance violations
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post

                        No, my post was edited when and where it broke forum rules. The topical, rule-cmpliant content refuting your position remains.....

                        Tom replies

                        Sorry you refuted nothing

                        You denied Calvinism was determinism. Quotes. and Calvinist posters prove you wrong

                        You claimed there was no soteriological content in 2Pe 3:9

                        Context and tons of commentators proved you wrong

                        [QUOTE=Josheb;n5828148]


                        ...as evidence that proves synergism wrong.

                        Tom notes

                        You provided no evidence of that

                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post

                        No. Calvinists oppose that because Calvinism teaches God ordains all things from creation without causing violence to human will or secondary causes.

                        Tom replies

                        Oppose what determination ?

                        You are wrong and even one of your own quotes pointed to determinism

                        Quotes from Calvinists themselves affirmed soft determinism (compatibilism) every bit as determinative as hard determinism

                        John Hendryx, a compatibilistic philosopher from monergism.com, speculates: “In order to understand this better, theologians have come up with the term ‘compatibilism’ to describe the concurrence of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility. Compatibilism is a form of determinism and it should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism. It simply means that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is ‘compatible’ with voluntary choice [choosing according to one’s desire]. Our choices are not coerced ...i.e. we do not choose against what we want or desire, yet we never make choices contrary to God's sovereign decree. What God determines will always come to pass

                        In other words God determines what you will desire and you are powerless to do differently

                        Compatibilism. It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism | Monergism www.monergism.com/topics/free-will/compatibilism

                        Seems you do not even know what noted Calvinists teach

                        second lets us not forget ordain can mean determine. You have objected to the use of determine
                        but it was a dictionary cited meaning

                        Third In soft determinism or compatibilism God determines the outcome by meticulous determination of man's desire, nature and circumstance and man has no option but to act on what god determined

                        It is still determinism

                        Do you not understand that ?


                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        But how


                        You try to prove otherwise by falsely quote-mining Calvinists and then ignoring the evidence when Calvinists post those quotes in their entirety to show everyone the deceptive quote mining.
                        You find the ordaining of God contradictory to a lack of violence to human will but refuse to take up any offers to walk with you through it.
                        Tom replies

                        sorry but you provided no evidence of non determination, no evidence at all of false quotes

                        and you just ignored the quotes where it was freely admitted soft determinism (compatibiliasm) is every bit as deterministic as hard determinism

                        The only deception is that you have deceived yourself by not understanding compatibilism is determinism

                        It is totally irrelevant whether some God determines the outcome by meticulous control of man's desires, will and circumstance or by direct control over man

                        It is still determinism. There is only one possible outcome that which God determined

                        Finally I do not need any such offer when I can read/hear from the lips/pen of Calvin, James White, and other noted Calvinist that it is a mystery how God can determine mans sin and not be culpable for it

                        One even states he does not know anyone who can explain it

                        If noted Calvinists say that why should I believe you

                        especially seeing as you have already demonstrated you have not understood determinism






                        Last edited by Mod8; 02-16-19, 09:11 PM.
                        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post
                          Sorry you refuted nothing
                          Evidence proves otherwise.
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post
                          You denied Calvinism was determinism.
                          No, I denied Calvinism is determinism as you define it and I said Calvinists whoo don't understand that are not representative of what Calvinism teaches, which is that God ordains all things from creation without doing violence to human will or secondary causes. You may say Calvinists teach something else and use quotemines in an attempt to prove that falsehood but that is what it is: quote-mined falsehood.


                          The evidence proves it.
                          Originally posted by TomL
                          Hardly as the Calvinist opposing my claim God does not determine men's sin clearly shows
                          Does it bother you that I agree with you (mostly) on that matter?


                          I've been trading posts with you a lot as a Calvinist and you constantly bring to me what a few other Cals say when you know I am not responsible for others' comments. I explained it to you with a fair amount of scriptural exposition and rational detail. Why do you think comments about others (who you are probably quote mining) impresses me?
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            [QUOTE=Josheb;n5828743]

                            Originally posted by TomL View Post
                            Sorry you refuted nothing

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post



                            Evidence proves otherwise.


                            Originally posted by TomL View Post
                            You denied Calvinism was determinism.

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post



                            No, I denied Calvinism is determinism as you define it and I said Calvinists whoo don't understand that are not representative of what Calvinism teaches, which is that God ordains all things from creation without doing violence to human will or secondary causes. You may say Calvinists teach something else and use quotemines in an attempt to prove that falsehood but that is what it is: quote-mined falsehood.
                            Tom replies

                            Your words

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            . Why is it hard to grasp Calvinism is not determinism?
                            Maybe because Calvinists say it is including some of the most noted of Calvinistsi

                            this is how I replied to it (below)

                            Tom asks

                            Can we not believe what Calvinists themselves say

                            One of the foremost Calvinist today (I am told)

                            Calvinistic Pastor, Dr. John Piper, teaches:



                            “God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child… in John Piper and Justin Taylor (eds.), Suffering and the Sovereignty of God (Wheaton: Crossway, 2006), 31-77 (quote from p. 42).

                            John Hendryx a Calvinist notes (note this is compatibilism)

                            for example states

                            the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism

                            voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise

                            In other words man can only do what God has previously determined

                            Audio transcript


                            How do we know that God always controls everything
                            ? My answer is that we know this because the Bible teaches it. It teaches it by direct statements and by clear and sufficient implication. Desiring God website


                            Calvinist sites affirming even soft determinism is as deterministic as hard determinism

                            Compatibilism. It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures.
                            Compatibilism | Monergism


                            www.monergism.com/topics/free-will/compatibilism


                            ….........................

                            You cannot revise your own claims which are on record

                            I stated Calvinism is determinism

                            You now affirm it

                            That settles the case

                            I was right you were wrong

                            It is that simple

                            The evidence proves it.


                            Originally posted by TomL
                            Hardly as the Calvinist opposing my claim God does not determine men's sin clearly shows



                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            Does it bother you that I agree with you (mostly) on that matter?
                            Tom replies

                            Not at all

                            I write to be believed

                            I wish all would believe

                            Whether I think you can consistently do so while affirming God determines or ordain etc all things is another matter

                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            I've been trading posts with you a lot as a Calvinist and you constantly bring to me what a few other Cals say when you know I am not responsible for others' comments. I explained it to you with a fair amount of scriptural exposition and rational detail. Why do you think comments about others (who you are probably quote mining) impresses me?

                            ?
                            Tom replies

                            Yet I have never stated or thought you were responsible. I simply pass on what I discover

                            and then point out what I believe is the logical conclusion to what is posted prefacing my claim with if this is believed then ..........................

                            Why you would think I hold you responsible I don't know

                            I post to you when addressing something you have stated but

                            do you think I should not attempt to prove what I state through first hand quotes when you claim I am misrepresenting Calvinism ?

                            If I did not do so I would be accused of misrepresenting what is believed (although I am anyway even when providing quotes)









                            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              I have instead countless and repeatedly stating something very, very different from that, beginning with the distinction between conversion and salvation and the scriptural fact conversion takes a moment but salvation takes a lifetime.
                              OK, Let's go with that. So I found this in the dictionary: Conversion: "• Christian Theology repentance and change to a godly life." Is this what you mean? That you repented and then salvation, you say, "takes a lifetime?" Why does salvation take a lifetime?

                              Another definition was "changing one's religious beliefs." Is this more in keeping with what you experienced?

                              Calvinists believe God has ordained all things from creation without causing violence to human will or secondary causes and because Calvinists don't believe anything humans do can ever overrule God...
                              See, it "does violence to the human will" for God to deny man freedom of his own will in any way.

                              I also understand ... you have a fundamental failure in understanding a couple of basic facts about the nature of God,...
                              I don't believe that. I believe that you fail to understand the nature of the Trinity .. how that the God of heaven, Father, is omniscient and had foreordained all that will occur in the earth through His foreknowledge and not because He had to predestine it all to occur. Therefore, you believe He chose you regardless of what He foreknew in you .. and you do NOT believe, therefore, that He chose you "in Christ" -- b/c He knows you will believe and repent in the name of Jesus Christ. If you really believe that God is omniscient, it is really hard for Calvinists to support predestination to salvation for a random few.

                              Salvation is by definition a life-changing experience.

                              Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Arminius, and Wesley may not have understood how profound is that change, but now that we in modern times know how to deconstruct a cell we know salvation is not spiritual alone.
                              Huh? The experience is new life. That doesn't change. 1Pet 1:8-9 says that there will be a definite experience .. "...joy unspeakable and full of glory, Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls." Does Wesley's experience of a "warm heart" even come close? How about Calvin's "sudden conversion?' As the song says, "Is that all there is?" Or the old lady would say, "Where's the beef?"

                              skypair

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by skypair View Post
                                OK, Let's go with that. So I found this in the dictionary: Conversion: "• Christian Theology repentance and change to a godly life." Is this what you mean? That you repented and then salvation, you say, "takes a lifetime?" Why does salvation take a lifetime?
                                No, it is not what I mean. It is not what I mean because as often as possible I try not to use extra-Biblical sources to define my terms, especially when scripture does so. This is a problem here and now because I have provided an explanation of what I mean already, and I have done so here in this very op and in countless other ops in this board. In other words, if you are/were actually paying attention to the posts then you'd already know how scripture speaks of conversion, how I have used the term, and what it means for the case I uniformly present in these Arm/Cal ops. In other words, you have no excuse for the foolishness just posted.


                                So you won't get further response on this matter until you get your act together because I am not trading posts with any poster who is not paying attention and ignoring already-posted content. For the sake of time, rather than send you back to re-read the posts as I would normally do, you let me know when you are ready to pay attention and I'll answer your question.
                                All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                                “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                                Comment

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