Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

    Well, two points:

    1) When Chysostom gets inserted into the Biblical canon, maybe his opinion will be significant.

    2) Nobody believes God draws anyone "by force and violence", so you are simply arguing against a straw-man.



    I've considered it.
    I've considered it about a hundred times.

    You're still wrong.

    What else have you got?
    Under the heading of "Rejection of the Errors"

    Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those . . .Who teach that God in regenerating people does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby God may powerfully and unfailingly bend the human will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for their conversion, they nevertheless can, and in actual fact often do, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate them, that they completely thwart their own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in their own power whether or not to be reborn. --Canons of Dort 1619

    My reading is that the Calvinist Canons of Dort specifically rejects John Chrysostom's statement: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."

    This is not just a strawman.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

      It's not "silence".
      And I will remind you that bearing false witness is a sin.

      I DID answer you.
      You simply answered, "nuh-huh", and continued asking me the same question, pretending I never answered you.
      I'm sorry that you feel so insecure in your beliefs, that you are so bothered that people disagree with you.
      I would never want to live that way.
      Failing to provide book/chapter/verse on false statements like our wills are enslaved by sin is deafening silence, and false personal attacks in place of citations is no way to live.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Conqueror
        That argument is moot for Calvinists
        have added Calvin to the word of God,
        but lacked the courage to make his opinions canonical.
        .

        Um, NOBODY has "added Calvin to the word of God".

        The only group that quotes "Calvin" are ANTI-Calvinists.
        Go figure.

        Calvinists simply quote THE BIBLE.
        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post
          Under the heading of "Rejection of the Errors"

          Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those . . .Who teach that God in regenerating people does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby God may powerfully and unfailingly bend the human will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for their conversion, they nevertheless can, and in actual fact often do, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate them, that they completely thwart their own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in their own power whether or not to be reborn. --Canons of Dort 1619

          My reading is that the Calvinist Canons of Dort specifically rejects John Chrysostom's statement: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."

          This is not just a strawman.
          No mention of "force" or "violence" in that canon.

          What else have you got?

          Care to try again?
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post
            Under the heading of "Rejection of the Errors"


            Having set forth the orthodox teaching, the Synod rejects the errors of those . . .Who teach that God in regenerating people does not bring to bear that power of his omnipotence whereby God may powerfully and unfailingly bend the human will to faith and conversion, but that even when God has accomplished all the works of grace which he uses for their conversion, they nevertheless can, and in actual fact often do, so resist God and the Spirit in their intent and will to regenerate them, that they completely thwart their own rebirth; and, indeed, that it remains in their own power whether or not to be reborn. --Canons of Dort 1619

            My reading is that the Calvinist Canons of Dort specifically rejects John Chrysostom's statement: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."

            This is not just a strawman.

            Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

            No mention of "force" or "violence" in that canon.

            What else have you got?

            Care to try again?

            Please supply the foundational apostolic witness,
            which made the Synod of Dortrecht in history authoritative?

            Do a word check on foundation in Eph 2:20.


            Edit per mod. Off topic.
            (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).


            Last edited by Mod20; 02-23-19, 03:30 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by cadwell
              I said I would stop asking you to back up your false statement ("our wills are enslaved in sin) with scripture.
              It's NOT a "false statement".

              Again more personal attacks without understanding of what words mean.
              Yep... "More personal attacks" by YOU.

              But that's okay.
              God will bless me for them.

              This is false. You made a false statement about free will.
              Wrong again.
              I NEVER made any "false statement".
              But that's okay... God will bless me for your false accusations.

              I asked you to provide what you believe is the scriptural basis of your statement. You never did,
              And I told YOU, that Jesus Christ is my Lord, and you are not my Lord.
              You don't get to tell me what to do. So get over yourself.

              And I DID provide a "Scriptural basis", you simply "nuh-huh'd" it, and then asked me the SAME question yet again.
              Guess what? The answer doesn't change, just because you don't like the answer.
              Asked and answered.
              And I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself ten million times just because you don't like the answer I gave.

              instead choosing to provide me a list of authors who i guess talk about it somewhere in their books.
              You're asking for answers.
              Those authors will give you the answers you CLAIM you're looking for.
              You obviously aren't interested in learning anything.

              I didnt ask if you knew of any good books to read (besides the bible). You remain silent on the question I presented, and never gave a citation.
              Edit per mod


              But God will bless me for your misrepresentations.

              Have a nice day!
              Last edited by Mod20; 02-23-19, 03:27 AM.
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                No mention of "force" or "violence" in that canon.

                What else have you got?

                Care to try again?
                No. The Canon is saying that God compels belief; that is the point. Human will is irrelevant, and to say otherwise is a grave error according to the canons.

                Do you agree with the Canons of Dort?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                  We have a TREMENDOUS understanding of the Bible,
                  Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
                  Calvinists simply quote THE BIBLE.
                  Originally posted by Theo1689;n58***88

                  If you really want to learn the answers (and I really doubt that you do), you can learn them REALLY easily by reading:

                  - Aurelius Augustine;
                  - Martin Luther;
                  - John Calvin;
                  - John Owen;
                  - John Gill;
                  - Jonathan Edwards;
                  - Charles Spurgeon;
                  - George Whitefield;
                  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
                  - Loraine Boettner;
                  - R.C. Sproul;
                  - John MacArthur;
                  - Alistair Begg;
                  - James White;



                  Originally posted by Theo1689

                  ROTFLOL!

                  Since I didn't "quote" any of those other authors, and I ONLY quote the Bible, I have to wonder what your imagination thinks you "caught" me at...


                  You're just too funny!
                  All references to the canon of scripture do not belong on this forum and are deleted.


                  .


                  Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:44 AM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                    No. The Canon is saying that God compels belief;
                    So does the Bible (Luke 14:23).
                    I'm sorry that you obviously hate the Bible.

                    But again, it does NOT say "force" or "violence".
                    Sorry, but there's no way around that.

                    Do you agree with the Canons of Dort?
                    I believe the Bible.
                    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                      And I DID provide a "Scriptural basis", you simply "nuh-huh'd" it, and then asked me the SAME question yet again.
                      Guess what? The answer doesn't change, just because you don't like the answer.
                      Asked and answered.
                      And I'm not going to waste my time repeating myself ten million times just because you don't like the answer I gave.
                      I just went back over the 16 times you responded directly to me after you made that false statement ("wills are enslaved by sin"), and not a single one had a citation in it. You can prove me wrong by going back and pointing to the reply that directly answered the question with at least a citation.

                      It is beyond strange that you refuse to give a book/chapter/verse because you dont want to repeat yourself, but you have repeated the phrase "you simply "nuh-huh'd" it" nearly ten times already.

                      You're asking for answers.
                      Those authors will give you the answers you CLAIM you're looking for.
                      You obviously aren't interested in learning anything.
                      I didnt ask for authors who could tell me what the bible says, I asked what the bible says. You could have just told me by now and stop wasting everyones time.

                      Bearing false witness is a sin.
                      But God will bless me for your misrepresentations.

                      Have a nice day!
                      The truth is in the previous responses, which lack a citation of where you get the idea that our wills arent free because they are enslaved in sin. I am ready to say "sorry I missed it" the moment you can show me which post you provided a citation for that false statement.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                        I just went back over the 16 times you responded directly to me after you made that false statement ("wills are enslaved by sin"), and not a single one had a citation in it.
                        I'm sorry that you couldn't find the post where I answered you, and THAT YOU RESPONDED to with your "nuh-huh".

                        That falls under the category of "NOT my problem".

                        You can prove me wrong
                        <Chuckle>

                        I've got better things to do with my life then letting you goad me into wasting my time in a discussion with you.
                        I really DON'T CARE what you think of me.
                        DON'T CARE at all.
                        That should be obvious by now.

                        Edit per mod.

                        by going back and pointing to the reply that directly answered the question with at least a citation.
                        Jesus Christ is my Lord.
                        You are not my Lord.
                        Get over yourself.

                        It is beyond strange that you refuse to give a book/chapter/verse because you dont want to repeat yourself, but you have repeated the phrase "you simply "nuh-huh'd" it" nearly ten times already.
                        I've answered you.
                        You've "nuh-huh'd" my answer.
                        Now you've DEMANDED I answer your SAME question about twenty times now.
                        Any reasonable person would conclude it's a waste of time trying to have a "discussion" with you.

                        You can believe whatever you want.
                        I. DON'T. CARE.

                        You can proclaim any hollow "victory" you want.
                        I. DON'T. CARE.

                        I guess some of us are simply more mature, and more secure in our beliefs, than others.

                        I didnt ask for authors who could tell me what the bible says, I asked what the bible says.
                        And those "authors" can give you the EXACT SAME answers as you "demand" I give you.
                        So you clearly are NOT actually interested in the answers.

                        You could have just told me by now and stop wasting everyones time.
                        I've already told you about twenty times now that I've ALREADY told you once, and I'm NOT going to waste my time repeating myself to you.
                        It's not my fault if you cannot understand that.
                        It's not my fault if YOU insist on wasting your OWN time by ignoring my responses to you.

                        The truth is in the previous responses, which lack a citation of where you get the idea that our wills arent free because they are enslaved in sin. I am ready to say "sorry I missed it" the moment you can show me which post you provided a citation for that false statement.
                        Edit per mod.

                        I stand with Jesus.
                        If you refuse to accept the truth, that's not my problem.

                        So have a nice day, and please stop harassing me.
                        My answer is NOT going go change, no matter HOW MANY TIMES you continue to harass me.
                        Try acting like a Christian, and showing people courtesy and respect.
                        Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:58 AM.
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Conqueror



                          Therefore go into the highways,
                          and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.
                          (Mt 22:9).

                          That was spoken as a parable to the Pharisees
                          in Matthew's apostolic word of God.

                          Luke presented his own interpretation in his fable
                          about
                          "compelling them to come in" (14:23)
                          as his mind was darkened to the apostolic truth. .

                          Compelling isn't inviting.
                          Salvation isn't forced on anyone.



                          .
                          Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                          Jesus Christ is my Lord.
                          You are not my Lord.
                          Get over yourself.
                          Those who are compelled to accept Jesus as Lord
                          are biblically illiterate.
                          This deserves a thread of its own



                          https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...fore-not-saved
                          .
                          Last edited by Conqueror; 02-22-19, 12:43 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Theo1689

                            Well, I'm not the Bible.
                            You don't seem to understand this.

                            What I don't understand (and I'm not interested in your response to this) is why you CLAIM you're not interested in what "some book" says the Bible says, but you CLAIM you're interested in what *I* say about what the Bible says.

                            It seems like a BLATANT double standard to me.
                            Its not a double standard no matter how bad you want it to be. We all have at one time or another, read a statement from someone else and asked for a bible citation that says what that person did. You did it in this very forum: https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...14#post5836214

                            I already know what you think the bible teaches, I simply asked for a scriptural citation of where you get the idea that the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin". I am not asking for your opinion, we already got that. I am asking for the scripture that form the basis for your opinion. Instead of pointing me to that scripture, you pointed me to random books by 14 different people. The double standard seems to be its ok for you to ask for direct citations, but no one is allowed to ask you for one.

                            I don't feel "obligated" to given a response.

                            I believe your argument has been so impotent on this point, that I have no NEED to give a response.

                            To quote Andy Defresne from Shawshank Redemption:

                            "I believe I have been very clear on this point."
                            Asked and answered.
                            You've rejected my answer.
                            Which is it? You dont feel obligated to give a response, or you've repeatedly given a response. The two seem to be conflicting ideas.

                            Please stop harassing me.
                            False accusation. You now equate responding to you to harassing you, which is a false and serious charge. A reply from you will garner a reply from me, especially if your post requires me to clear up a false accusation. If you dont want me responding to you, dont respond to me.

                            I reject your false teachings.

                            What kind of work is it for YOU to go back and find the post where I wrote to it, and where YOU reponded to it?!

                            It's not my job to do YOUR work for you.
                            If you want me to work for you, you need to PAY me to do YOUR work.

                            Please stop harassing me.
                            Please stop wasting my time.

                            If you disagree with me, I. DON'T. CARE.

                            I'm secure with my beliefs.
                            It's not my fault that you aren't secure with yours.
                            More personal attacks in place of a more substantive response.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                              So does the Bible (Luke 14:23).
                              I'm sorry that you obviously hate the Bible.

                              But again, it does NOT say "force" or "violence".
                              Sorry, but there's no way around that.



                              I believe the Bible.
                              Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. Luke 14:23

                              The context is that this verse is at the end of the parable of the great banquet. Three others were formally invited but they all found excuses for why they could not attend, and they were not forced to attend. "Compel" in the context of this verse logically means that people were convinced to come.

                              2 Corinthians 5 further supports this understanding how God's servants are to bring people to Christ:

                              . . .we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. . .For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. . .We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 1 Cor 5:11-20

                              Scripture says that Christ knocks and we can open the door. It does not say that he breaks down the door.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Tom replies

                                come out of your denial

                                Libertarian free will notes the ability to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

                                God clearly indicated they had the ability to obey and stated if they did not they would be cursed

                                In Israel's history they were often cursed

                                Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (NIV2011)
                                11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
                                12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
                                13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
                                14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
                                15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
                                16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
                                17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
                                18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
                                19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

                                deal with it
                                I ask again. You made a specific claim. God has given you libertarian free will. Where does He tell you that?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X