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  • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

    No. The Canon is saying that God compels belief; that is the point. Human will is irrelevant, and to say otherwise is a grave error according to the canons.

    Do you agree with the Canons of Dort?
    Where does it say the will is irrelevant? Do you wear glasses?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theo1689

      You are mistaken.
      That falls under the category of "not my problem".



      Congratulations!
      You have an amazing grasp of the obvious!



      ??????




      ??????




      I've already explained to you, REPEATEDLY, that (1) I already answered you (and you rejected my answer), and (2) I'm not going to waste my time constantly repeating myself to you over and over again.

      If you can't understand basic English responses, that's NOT my problem.



      Wrong again.

      1) I DID answer you. You simply "nuh-huh'd" it.

      2) I gave you MANY citations of books which provided the Biblical response. But you're NOT INTERESTED in the Biblical response.



      I'm doing you the courtesy of repeating my previous answers.
      I forgiven you for ignoring the last twenty times I've given you the answer.



      So what you're saying is that you're not interested in your own posts.
      I'm not interested in your posts either.
      I'd really appreciate it if you'd stop harassing me.



      Yes, I did.
      You even RESPONDED to it.
      It's not my fault you reject my answer, and continue to pester me to give you the same answer that you ALREADY REJECT.



      I agree.



      Your answer is false.
      You ignored my Biblical citation.
      I'm not going to waste my time repeating it over and over.

      I guess I'm simply more secure in my beliefs that you are in yours, huh?



      You are mistaken.



      Sorry, but I'm not interested in being FORCED in to a discussion that I have NO INTEREST in.

      I'm only interested in discussions with reasonable people who are willing to treat their opponents with courtesy and respect.
      That's my standard.
      If you don't like it, tough.



      <Chuckle>

      In the meantime, you STILL haven't demonstrated ANYWHERE that the Bible allegedly teaches, "men have free will".
      You simply ASSUME it and CLAIM it over and over again, brainwashing yourself.



      Wrong.
      Courtesy and respect would be not haven't shown you the citation, when I have.



      The accusation isn't "false".
      And it's not courteous or respectful to claim my accusations are "false", when they are NOT.



      And you again ASSUME "free will", when you have never PROVEN it with SCRIPTURE.
      hey theo OLD BUDDY nice to see your Edit per mod .. what do you call in the garden? he put Adam and eve there. with specific instructions. leave the tree alone ....did they ? no eve listened to the serpent , she ate of her own free will,,,,yes free we are free moral agents. .Edit insult
      Last edited by Mod20; 02-23-19, 03:45 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

        I ask again. You made a specific claim. God has given you libertarian free will. Where does He tell you that?
        Tom replies

        Read

        Tom replies

        come out of your denial

        Libertarian free will notes the ability to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

        God clearly indicated they had the ability to obey and stated if they did not they would be cursed

        In Israel's history they were often cursed

        Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (NIV2011)
        11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
        12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
        13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
        14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
        15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
        16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
        17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
        18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
        19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

        the ability to chose as seen in this passage is libertarian free will

        Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

        Comment


        • Originally posted by cadwell View Post
          Its not a double standard no matter how bad you want it to be.
          Actually, it is.
          There is no difference between reading the answer from my posts, and reading the answer from books.
          Either way, the answer is "from men" (who quote Scripture).

          I already know what you think the bible teaches, I simply asked for a scriptural citation of where you get the idea that the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin". I am not asking for your opinion, we already got that. I am asking for the scripture that form the basis for your opinion.
          Asked and answered.
          It's not my fault you can't be bothered to pay attention.
          I'm not going to repeat myself for you.

          Besides, I'm not INTERESTED in "convincing" you.
          For that matter, we all know that YOU aren't interested in being convinced.
          Yet you come here with this big "chip" on your shoulder, harassing me by constantly goading me into responding to you.

          In the meantime, YOU seem to want to convince ME (and others) that we have this imaginary thing called "free will".
          Well, YOU haven't provided any BIBLE to demonstrate that.


          Do you understand?
          I'm not the LEAST BIT INTERESTED in "convincing" you of anything.
          But YOU are trying to demand that we accept your imaginary belief in "free will".
          So since YOU are the one who wants to convince US of something, YOU are the one with the burden of proof.

          Instead of pointing me to that scripture, you pointed me to random books by 14 different people.
          They are NOT "random books".
          They are books that answer the question you CLAIM to want answered.

          The double standard seems to be its ok for you to ask for direct citations, but no one is allowed to ask you for one.
          You are trying to "convince" us of something. Therefore YOU are the one with the burden of proof.
          I'm not trying to "convince" anyone of anything. Therefore I do NOT have the burden of proof.
          It's not a difficult concept to understand.

          Which is it? You dont feel obligated to give a response, or you've repeatedly given a response. The two seem to be conflicting ideas.
          Both.
          I've already given a response, and I don't feel obligated to repeat myself simply because you can't be bothered to pay attention.

          False accusation. You now equate responding to you to harassing you, which is a false and serious charge. A reply from you will garner a reply from me, especially if your post requires me to clear up a false accusation. If you dont want me responding to you, dont respond to me.
          I'd really rather not respond to you, but your constant FALSE CLAIMS about me NECESSITATE a response.
          I think you know that.
          I think you INTENTIONALLY make these false claims, simply to ensure that I keep responding to you.
          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Tom replies

            Read

            Tom replies

            come out of your denial

            Libertarian free will notes the ability to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

            God clearly indicated they had the ability to obey and stated if they did not they would be cursed

            In Israel's history they were often cursed

            Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (NIV2011)
            11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.
            12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
            13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”
            14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
            15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.
            16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
            17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,
            18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
            19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

            the ability to chose as seen in this passage is libertarian free will
            Where does God say He gave you libertarian free will? Should be easy to cite the passage. Or is it?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

              Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. Luke 14:23

              The context is that this verse is at the end of the parable of the great banquet. Three others were formally invited but they all found excuses for why they could not attend, and they were not forced to attend.
              Yes, and that's because they were enslaved in sin.

              "Compel" in the context of this verse logically means that people were convinced to come.
              Well, of course.... It doesn't mean that they were dragged kicking and screaming against their will!
              NOBODY believes that.

              But guess what?
              It has the EXACT SAME MEANING in the canon of Dordt.

              2 Corinthians 5 further supports this understanding how God's servants are to bring people to Christ:

              . . .we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade others. . .For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. . .We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 1 Cor 5:11-20
              Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

              Scripture says that Christ knocks and we can open the door. It does not say that he breaks down the door.
              And that verse ISN'T about evangelizing unbelievers
              He was speaking to the CHURCH.
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • Originally posted by reformedguy View Post

                Where does God say He gave you libertarian free will? Should be easy to cite the passage. Or is it?
                Tom replies

                Open your eyes


                Read



                come out of your denial


                Libertarian free will notes the ability to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation


                God clearly indicated they had the ability to obey and stated if they did not they would be cursed


                In Israel's history they were often cursed

                Deuteronomy 30:11-19 (NIV2011)

                11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach.

                12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

                13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?”

                14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

                15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

                16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

                17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them,

                18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

                19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

                the ability to chose as seen in this passage is libertarian free will
                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                  Actually, it is.
                  There is no difference between reading the answer from my posts, and reading the answer from books.
                  Either way, the answer is "from men" (who quote Scripture).
                  The difference is that the random people whose unspecified books you point to, instead of scripture, features false statements and scripture used to justify their false beliefs. We already have your false belief:

                  the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin"

                  ....whats missing is the scripture you base this on.

                  They are NOT "random books".
                  They are books that answer the question you CLAIM to want answered.
                  2) I gave you MANY citations of books which provided the Biblical response. But you're NOT INTERESTED in the Biblical response.
                  These are false statements. You never cited a BOOK, you ran off a list of 14 random people

                  If you really want to learn the answers edit per mod, you can learn them REALLY easily by reading:

                  - Aurelius Augustine;
                  - Martin Luther;
                  - John Calvin;
                  - John Owen;
                  - John Gill;
                  - Jonathan Edwards;
                  - Charles Spurgeon;
                  - George Whitefield;
                  - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
                  - Loraine Boettner;
                  - R.C. Sproul;
                  - John MacArthur;
                  - Alistair Begg;
                  - James White;
                  A biblical citation provides the book of the bible, the chapter, and the verse. We never got that concerning your false statement of mans will being enslaved by sin. A non biblical citation provides the author, title of the book, and page number of where one could find the explanation of your false doctrine. We never got that either.

                  Asked and answered.
                  It's not my fault you can't be bothered to pay attention.
                  I'm not going to repeat myself for you.

                  Besides, I'm not INTERESTED in "convincing" you.
                  For that matter, we all know that YOU aren't interested in being convinced.
                  Yet you come here with this big "chip" on your shoulder, harassing me by constantly goading me into responding to you.
                  That mindset comes from calvins false teaching. You dont think you are responding because you want to, think you are responding because I'm "goading" you, like my posts are IRRESISTIBLE. LOL

                  In the meantime, YOU seem to want to convince ME (and others) that we have this imaginary thing called "free will".
                  Well, YOU haven't provided any BIBLE to demonstrate that.

                  Do you understand?
                  I'm not the LEAST BIT INTERESTED in "convincing" you of anything.
                  But YOU are trying to demand that we accept your imaginary belief in "free will".
                  So since YOU are the one who wants to convince US of something, YOU are the one with the burden of proof.

                  You are trying to "convince" us of something. Therefore YOU are the one with the burden of proof.
                  I'm not trying to "convince" anyone of anything. Therefore I do NOT have the burden of proof.
                  It's not a difficult concept to understand.
                  Its an open forum where people discuss scripture, not a courtroom where people are trying to prove innocence or guilt. The concept of an online forum isnt difficult to understand.

                  I'd really rather not respond to you, but your constant FALSE CLAIMS about me NECESSITATE a response.
                  I think you know that.
                  I think you INTENTIONALLY make these false claims, simply to ensure that I keep responding to you.
                  Again, this mindset is a by product of false doctrine. I cannot make you do anything, you respond because you want to. A false statement is easily proved in a forum like this; if you have actually provided a biblical citation of that false statement you made, you can easily provide the link to where you responded with a citation. The excuses for not doing that are piling up, if my claim is false, and you have responded with a citation, you can prove me false by telling us which post it was. You made that false statement in post 90, I asked for a citation in post 98, and thus far you have not provided one.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                    The term “free will” is nonspecific to what the will is free from, therefore if someone uses it to mean something that the definition doesn’t allow, then that someone is deceiving!
                    The FREE in free will means to be specifically free from any and all coercion that forces the decision to only one option, direction whether by intimidation or lack of details or by removing some options for the choice (ie, by constraint).
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      Where does the Bible teach that mans will is free””?
                      How about in Rev 19:9 Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

                      NO forced marriage is true, that is, unless a marriage was chosen / accepted by both sides by a free will ie without any coercions or constraints, it cannot be called a true marriage. So at some time in our lives we had to have chosen to accept HIS proposal to be HIS bride, by our free will...
                      I champion GOD’s holiness:
                      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                      - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                      I champion Our Free will:
                      - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                        The difference is that the random people whose unspecified books you point to, instead of scripture, features false statements and scripture used to justify their false beliefs. We already have your false belief:
                        They are no more "random" than I am.
                        Your comment is a cop-out.

                        the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin"

                        ....whats missing is the scripture you base this on.
                        Yes, you've pointed that out about ten million times.
                        And I've pointed you to many books that can answer your question.
                        But obviously you're not INTERESTED in the answer to your question.

                        These are false statements. You never cited a BOOK, you ran off a list of 14 random people
                        I see...
                        So what I hear you saying is that you have difficulty finding appropriate books from those authors.
                        No matter, I can help you out. Here is the list of book titles I gave conqueror in another thread:

                        "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" (Boettner; public domain)
                        "Bondage of the Will (Luther; public domain)

                        "The Five Points of Calvinism" (Steele & Thomas)
                        "For Calvinism" (Horton)
                        "In Defense of Calvinism" (Spurgeon)
                        "Chosen By God" (Sproul)
                        "The Potter's Freedom" (White)

                        You can also go to monergism.org and do a search on "free will":
                        https://www.monergism.com/search?key...ill&format=All

                        That mindset comes from calvins false teaching. You dont think you are responding because you want to, think you are responding because I'm "goading" you, like my posts are IRRESISTIBLE. LOL
                        Not at all.
                        I'm willing and eager to share what I believe with anyone who is SINCERELY interested in learning, and not interested in harassing, bullying, and insulting me.

                        It has absolutely nothing to do with doctrine.
                        It has absolutely everything to do with avoiding inappropriate behaviour.

                        Its an open forum where people discuss scripture, not a courtroom where people are trying to prove innocence or guilt. The concept of an online forum isnt difficult to understand.
                        <Chuckle>
                        More double standards by you.
                        I have to "prove" my doctrine to you, but you don't have to prove your doctrine to me?!

                        And if I don't have to "prove" my doctrine (it's "not a courtroom", you said), then what's the matter with me not giving you citations?

                        Again, this mindset is a by product of false doctrine. I cannot make you do anything, you respond because you want to. A false statement is easily proved in a forum like this; if you have actually provided a biblical citation of that false statement you made, you can easily provide the link to where you responded with a citation. The excuses for not doing that are piling up, if my claim is false, and you have responded with a citation, you can prove me false by telling us which post it was. You made that false statement in post 90, I asked for a citation in post 98, and thus far you have not provided one.
                        For someone who CLAIMS this is "not a courtroom", without anything to "prove", you seem to use "prove" and "provide the link/citation" an awful lot.

                        Why the repeated demands to "prove" something if you CLAIM this is "not a courtroom", and if you CLAIM nobody's trying to "prove" anything?

                        Or is it just YOU who doesn't have to prove YOUR false beliefs?
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                          They are no more "random" than I am.
                          Your comment is a cop-out.
                          Yes, you've pointed that out about ten million times.
                          I will point out the fact that you havent properly cited the bible (or even the other books I didnt ask for) as many times is necessary.

                          And I've pointed you to many books that can answer your question.
                          I dont care about "many books", I asked for a citation from the bible alone. You have yet to provide that.

                          But obviously you're not INTERESTED in the answer to your question.
                          You are not an expert on what my interests are. The answer to my question is a proper biblical citation, not a list or random people who have written books.

                          I see...
                          So what I hear you saying is that you have difficulty finding appropriate books from those authors.
                          That is false, I am having difficulty finding your false statement in scripture, and am seeking the verse (or verses) that form the basis of your belief. If you dont know, or feel like one of those 14 dudes you named can say it better, then thats fine. Just know that running a list of names is not a proper citation, so every time you said you cited something, you said so falsely.

                          No matter, I can help you out. Here is the list of book titles I gave conqueror in another thread:
                          Is that what happened, you gave someone else (in another thread) a list of books, and mistakenly thought you gave them to me (in this thread)? Is that why you have been falsely saying you cited them to me, you got confused again? I am genuinely curious as to why you would repeat that falsehood over and over again, and this sounds like a plausible excuse.

                          "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" (Boettner; public domain)
                          "Bondage of the Will (Luther; public domain)

                          "The Five Points of Calvinism" (Steele & Thomas)
                          "For Calvinism" (Horton)
                          "In Defense of Calvinism" (Spurgeon)
                          "Chosen By God" (Sproul)
                          "The Potter's Freedom" (White)

                          You can also go to monergism.org and do a search on "free will":
                          https://www.monergism.com/search?key...ill&format=All
                          Those still arent proper citations, as they dont direct me to the page number of the relevant topic. Great you can at least name the book, but again, I dont care what they say about the bible. I care what the bible says. What does the bible say exactly about mans will being enslaved to sin?

                          Not at all.
                          I'm willing and eager to share what I believe with anyone who is SINCERELY interested in learning, and not interested in harassing, bullying, and insulting me.
                          I have never done any of those things, you seem to believe that asking you about your doctrine amounts to harassment and bullying. It doesnt, but those false accusations are a good way to keep the conversation away scripture.

                          <Chuckle>
                          More double standards by you.
                          I have to "prove" my doctrine to you, but you don't have to prove your doctrine to me?!
                          I didnt say anything about proving doctrine, I said proving guilt or innocence. The online forum is supposed to be a place where people can exchange ideas, but conversations with you often break down into hurling insults which are a direct result of your inflammatory language. Instead of proving the truth of the scripture, I have to waste time proving that asking simple questions doesnt amount to harassment. Instead of proving how much of a false teacher calvin was, I have to waste time proving that "I already gave you the citations" is completely false.

                          And if I don't have to "prove" my doctrine (it's "not a courtroom", you said), then what's the matter with me not giving you citations?
                          Courtrooms are for proving guilt or innocence (among other things), I dont know of any debate over bible doctrine that takes place down at the courthouse. You dont do well with comprehension sometimes, probably because you are thinking of responding without fully taking in what you are reading. I can prove this question is false and misleading:

                          you don't have to prove your doctrine to me?!

                          You asked that, but of course I never said I didnt have to prove anything related to doctrine. I can prove that by linking to this post: https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...45#post5834745 where I made a statement, and backed it up under a section I labeled PROOF

                          For someone who CLAIMS this is "not a courtroom", without anything to "prove", you seem to use "prove" and "provide the link/citation" an awful lot.
                          Again, I shouldnt have to prove your many false statements and accusations are false, its not a courtroom. You make them to take away from me proving your doctrine is false, which is what an online forum is for.

                          Why the repeated demands to "prove" something if you CLAIM this is "not a courtroom", and if you CLAIM nobody's trying to "prove" anything?
                          See above. For someone who doesnt have to repeat themselves, you really like to repeat yourself. In doing so, you again attempt to move the attention away from the fact that this many hours later, you still havent provided a biblical citation of that false statement you made.

                          Or is it just YOU who doesn't have to prove YOUR false beliefs?
                          This has already been proven to be a false and misleading question.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                            How about in Rev 19:9 Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
                            9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. (KJV)

                            Where does "called" suggest "free will"?

                            NO forced marriage is true, that is, unless a marriage was chosen / accepted by both sides by a free will ie without any coercions or constraints,
                            That's a very modern, western, idea.

                            You are simply demonstrating over and over again that you are ASSUMING "free will".

                            Because it is certainly NOT anywhere in the text.

                            In Biblical times, the fathers of the young man and young woman arranged the match.

                            it cannot be called a true marriage.
                            Where does the BIBLE teach that?
                            All I've seen is you ADDING assumptions to the Bible.

                            So at some time in our lives we had to have chosen to accept HIS proposal to be HIS bride, by our free will...
                            Unfortunately for you, the BIBLE doesn't teach that ANYWHERE.
                            "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                            but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                            -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                              The FREE in free will means to be specifically free from any and all coercion that forces the decision to only one option, direction whether by intimidation or lack of details or by removing some options for the choice (ie, by constraint).
                              Man does not just flip-a-coin when making a decision! There is an internal faculty that determines the final option decided upon! The will plays its part in this faculty but it is not independent of this faculty! The will is not free from any coercion at all!

                              Would you say that the will is “free” from the mind, heart, spirit, flesh, or nature of man? Is the will independent from everything?


                              Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                              How about in Rev 19:9 Then the angel told me to write, “Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.”
                              What can we learn about “those who are invited” from this verse? This verse says nothing about man... or his will! It simply says “those who are invited”... that’s it! You assume something about mans will that is not taught in this verse!

                              It does seam that they had a “choice” and the “choice” was “free”... but nothing about mans will though!
                              2 Timothy 2:24-26

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cadwell View Post
                                I will point out the fact that you havent properly cited the bible (or even the other books I didnt ask for) as many times is necessary.
                                I'm not sure why you feel the need.
                                I've already ACKNOWLEDGED that.

                                So how many times is "as many times as necessary"?
                                For most reasonable people, once is enough.
                                So what is the "magic number" for you?
                                5? 10? 100? Twenty million?

                                I dont care about "many books", I asked for a citation from the bible alone. You have yet to provide that.
                                If you don't care about "many books", then there's no reason for you to care about my view, either.

                                You are not an expert on what my interests are. The answer to my question is a proper biblical citation, not a list or random people who have written books.
                                Well, I'm not giving you one.
                                You can harass me all you want, but my answer isn't going to change.

                                That is false, I am having difficulty finding your false statement in scripture, and am seeking the verse (or verses) that form the basis of your belief.
                                What forms "the basis of my belief" is NONE of your business.

                                If you dont know, or feel like one of those 14 dudes you named can say it better, then thats fine.
                                Of course I know.
                                And yes, you will get more understanding if you actually take the time to read a well-presented Biblical argument (something you apparently have no desire to do).

                                Just know that running a list of names is not a proper citation, so every time you said you cited something, you said so falsely.
                                <sigh>
                                I never CLAIMED that a list of names was "a proper citation".
                                I already told you (repeatedly) I'm not GIVING you a "proper citation".

                                Is that what happened, you gave someone else (in another thread) a list of books, and mistakenly thought you gave them to me (in this thread)? Is that why you have been falsely saying you cited them to me, you got confused again? I am genuinely curious as to why you would repeat that falsehood over and over again, and this sounds like a plausible excuse.
                                <sigh>
                                How many times do you feel compelled to use the term "falsely" in regards to me?
                                Is that what being a "Christian" means to you, bad-mouthing other Christians over and over again?

                                Those still arent proper citations,
                                I never said they were.
                                Please try to pay attention, okay?

                                I care what the bible says.
                                Great!
                                Then stop harassing me, and spend your time reading the BIBLE!
                                Problem solved!

                                What does the bible say exactly about mans will being enslaved to sin?
                                Ask your pastor, if you don't know.

                                I have never done any of those things, you seem to believe that asking you about your doctrine amounts to harassment and bullying. It doesnt, but those false accusations are a good way to keep the conversation away scripture.
                                I have told you REPEATEDLY I'm not interested in a discussion with you.
                                I have told you REPEATEDLY that I'm not interested in giving you my "citations".
                                Your constant goading and harassing despite this DOES constitute harassment, and any "Christian" engaged in that activity should be ashamed of themselves.

                                but conversations with you often break down into hurling insults
                                Yes, and that's precisely why I'm not interested in discussion with you, because of your constant INSULTS.
                                Thank you for understanding!

                                Instead of proving the truth of the scripture, I have to waste time proving that asking simple questions doesnt amount to harassment. Instead of proving how much of a false teacher calvin was, I have to waste time proving that "I already gave you the citations" is completely false.
                                No, I GAVE you a citation.
                                You simply tried to twist it to rob it of any meaning.
                                So I'm not going to waste my time further.

                                you don't have to prove your doctrine to me?!

                                You asked that, but of course I never said I didnt have to prove anything related to doctrine.
                                Great!

                                So please PROVE "God has given man a free will by which he can choose to accept or reject Christ" from the Bible.

                                I can prove that by linking to this post: https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...45#post5834745 where I made a statement, and backed it up under a section I labeled PROOF
                                Sorry, not sufficient.
                                Nothing on that page proves, "God gave man a free will".


                                Btw, I love your blatant double standard where I can't direct you to books and websites, but you can direct me to other pages.

                                See above. For someone who doesnt have to repeat themselves, you really like to repeat yourself. In doing so, you again attempt to move the attention away from the fact that this many hours later, you still havent provided a biblical citation of that false statement you made.
                                It WASN'T a "false statement".
                                And I'm not under any OBLIGATION to repeat any "citations" to you.
                                So please stop harassing me.

                                This has already been proven to be a false and misleading question.
                                Just because you make a false claim doesn't make it true.
                                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

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