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Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    The whole point is they were to turn to the lord with all their heart
    Yes... and why is this command not to difficult for those spoken of in vs. 8?

    Where is the “word of faith”, already at, so they can achieve such righteousness without difficulty?


    Is it far off? No!
    Is it in heaven? No!
    Is it in the ocean? No!
    Is it near? Yes!
    How near? In their heart!


    This is why the command “to turn to the lord with all their heart” is not to difficult for those in vs.8!

    You may want it to, but this passage is not teaching how faith originates in the heart! This is why Total inability is irrelevant to this passage!
    2 Timothy 2:24-26

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      Tom replies

      It speaks of turning to the lord

      of which we were previously told was not too difficult for them contrary to Total inability which assumes it to be impossible
      Total inability only refers to those who don’t have “the word of faith” in there heart! Those in vs.8 do not fit this criteria!

      Your error is assuming that the phrase “not to difficult for you” is referring to every individual without distinction! This is error!
      2 Timothy 2:24-26

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sketo View Post

        Total inability only refers to those who don’t have “the word of faith” in there heart! Those in vs.8 do not fit this criteria!

        Your error is assuming that the phrase “not to difficult for you” is referring to every individual without distinction! This is error!
        Total inability only applies to those that do not believe God. After all it was God that promised the Son and God calls us to the Son. You seem to forget that all the prophets that spoke for God in the OT looked forward to God's promise being fulfilled.

        Start where Paul starts, with God Who promised. And all those Jews and Gentiles that sat under OT teaching and listened to the prophets of God------Did God prepare them? Did God already know them? How about those that believed the Scriptures----did God lose them? What about all of those men in Hebrews 11 that believed God----yet the promise of the Messiah had not yet come for them. So study Romans 4 a bit more---Those that believed God were convinced that what God had promised He would also perform. Did God lose those people that knew of God's promise?

        You read Romans as if no one ever believed God until Jesus was sent. Any sinner that turns to God------will accept Christ. God, and the Son of God cannot have two different sets of believers.
        Thine they were, and Thou gavest them to Me.

        There is no salvation without faith in Christ. There is a distinction between believing God and not believing God. Salvation has always been for people (sinners all) that turn to God.

        You misread, or misunderstand what Jesus taught-----He came to the Jews-----those that were supposedly prepared by God for His coming---by what the prophets said.

        "Is He the One or should we look for someone else?" Even John the Baptist did not recognize Christ on His own. So how would an idol worshipper recognize Christ?

        So when was the New Testament written? Did Paul and the disciples go to the New Testament to persuade people that Jesus is the One promised by God?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sketo View Post

          Total inability only refers to those who don’t have “the word of faith” in there heart! Those in vs.8 do not fit this criteria!

          Your error is assuming that the phrase “not to difficult for you” is referring to every individual without distinction! This is error!
          Tom replies

          We already saw it just refer to knowledge it does not mean one has already come into a faith based relationship with God

          Remember what we have seen

          Deuteronomy 30:10 (KJV)
          10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

          Deuteronomy 30:17 (KJV)
          17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

          scripture does not assume they were in such a relationship

          Deuteronomy 30:19 (KJV)
          19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

          and asks that they make a choice which is not too difficult for them to make

          lastly you are ignoring the semantic range of the word lebab as seem in the enhanced Strong's lexicon

          including having knowledge of a thing

          rather than being hidden as verse 11 denies they knew what was the truth
          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Tom replies

            We already saw it just refer to knowledge it does not mean one has already come into a faith based relationship with God
            You brought this passage of scripture up as an answer to the OP questions... correct?

            Instead of wasting time, running in circles, can you just explain how your original reference answers the questions... specifically!

            Originally posted by Sketo View Post
            Where does the Bible teach that “”“mans choice is free”””?

            Where does the Bible teach that “””mans will is free””?”
            2 Timothy 2:24-26

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Sketo View Post

              You brought this passage of scripture up as an answer to the OP questions... correct?

              Instead of wasting time, running in circles, can you just explain how your original reference answers the questions... specifically!
              Tom replies

              Deuteronomy 30:10-19 (KJV)
              10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
              11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
              12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
              13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
              14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
              15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
              16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
              17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
              18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
              19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

              Did God not state to choose ?

              Did God not state it was not too difficult for them to do ?

              Did God not warn of the consequences of a contrary response ? God obviously knew they could respond in a contrary manner to his command

              Do you believe Israel obeyed ?


              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                Where does the Bible teach that “”mans choice is free””?

                Where does the Bible teach that “”mans will is free””?
                Do you know what an oxymoron is?
                The opposite of free choice would be an oxymoron.
                In different words, if it is not free, it is not choice.
                by faith we understand...
                Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by David1701 View Post

                  All over the place! As long as you mean that it's free from external coercion.



                  Nowhere! Man's choices are always said to come from his nature.
                  Based on what would you say that a choice coming from a man's nature was not free? You imply that a man's nature is something outside of himself that limits his choosing ability.
                  by faith we understand...
                  Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                    Based on what would you say that a choice coming from a man's nature was not free?
                    A choice springing from who and what a man is, IS free from external coercion; but is constrained by his nature.

                    You imply that a man's nature is something outside of himself that limits his choosing ability.
                    No, it's who he is; and who he is limits his choosing ability (he can't choose contrary to his own nature; just as God cannot choose contrary to His nature).

                    Would you imply that man's will is something outside himself that is not governed by who the man is?
                    Last edited by David1701; 02-18-19, 05:19 PM.
                    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                      Do you know what an oxymoron is?
                      The opposite of free choice would be an oxymoron.
                      In different words, if it is not free, it is not choice.
                      Do you know what ambiguity is? Do you recognize that ambiguity is the mother of equivocation?
                      The opposite of "free" choice is unknown, since you never defined what you meant by "free". What sort of freedom are you endorsing? Define it please!
                      In different words, if it is not free, then it could be free in a different sense; but you would not know, since you have just assumed an ambiguous, undisclosed idea of what is meant by "free".

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by David1701 View Post
                        No, it's who he is; and who he is limits his choosing ability (he can't choose contrary to his own nature;
                        Says who? By what Biblical authority do you state that God teaches a man cannot choose contrary to his nature?

                        by faith we understand...
                        Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by His clay View Post

                          Do you know what ambiguity is? Do you recognize that ambiguity is the mother of equivocation?
                          The opposite of "free" choice is unknown, since you never defined what you meant by "free". What sort of freedom are you endorsing? Define it please!
                          In different words, if it is not free, then it could be free in a different sense; but you would not know, since you have just assumed an ambiguous, undisclosed idea of what is meant by "free".
                          All this is, is rhetoric to avoid making a clear statement about how a will cannot be free.
                          It is Calvinists who begin all the discussions about free will and then claim they don't know what is meant.
                          by faith we understand...
                          Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                            Do you know what an oxymoron is?
                            The opposite of free choice would be an oxymoron.
                            In different words, if it is not free, it is not choice.
                            Is your choice free from God's providence and sovereignty??

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by His clay View Post

                              Do you know what ambiguity is? Do you recognize that ambiguity is the mother of equivocation?
                              The opposite of "free" choice is unknown, since you never defined what you meant by "free". What sort of freedom are you endorsing? Define it please!
                              In different words, if it is not free, then it could be free in a different sense; but you would not know, since you have just assumed an ambiguous, undisclosed idea of what is meant by "free".
                              Exactly. Well said. He will never define what he means by "free".

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by SethProton View Post
                                All this is, is rhetoric to avoid making a clear statement about how a will cannot be free.
                                It is Calvinists who begin all the discussions about free will and then claim they don't know what is meant.
                                All this is, is rhetoric to avoid making a clear statement about what freedom entails. This allows you to equivocate and make undefined accusations against people without warrant. Free in what sense? You need to define your terms. I will repeat my post, since you completely failed to respond to it.

                                Do you know what ambiguity is? Do you recognize that ambiguity is the mother of equivocation?
                                The opposite of "free" choice is unknown, since you never defined what you meant by "free". What sort of freedom are you endorsing? Define it please!
                                In different words, if it is not free, then it could be free in a different sense; but you would not know, since you have just assumed an ambiguous, undisclosed idea of what is meant by "free".


                                If you are going to try to make points like you tried to make (about oxymorons), then you need to define your terms. Otherwise, your point is not made. You need to shoulder the burden that your accusations entail. Quit trying to pass the buck; it's time to man up and shoulder the burden your own accusations have made.

                                Comment

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