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Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

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  • Originally posted by cadwell;n58***58
    I am asking for the same in return. If the bible says our will are whats enslaved, I would like to know where.
    Sorry, I don't believe you.

    Do you need a day or two to find out?
    Not at all.
    I've made the argument at least ten thousand times.
    I've already answered you.
    You simply reject my answer.
    That falls under the category of "not my problem".

    I don't see the point of WASTING MY TIME giving you the same answer over and over, when you obviously have no desire to accept it, and you want to be insulting in the process.
    Seriously, I've got better things to do with my time.

    You see, unlike you, I'm actually SECURE in my beliefs, even if people disagree with me.
    I really don't care if people disagree with me.
    It doesn't bother me.

    Do you want more time to research that statement, to see what calvin said about it?
    <sigh>

    Thank you for continuing to be so insulting.
    God will bless me for it.

    I couldn't care LESS what "calvin [sic] said about it"/

    I only care what the BIBLE says about it.

    No rush, but I would appreciate the courtesy of a citation to go along with your statements.
    Asked and answered.
    You've already rejected the Biblical answer I gave you.
    So why should I waste my time repeating myself, when you have already made it clear that you're going to reject any answer I give you?

    Ok, well can you provide me the verses that helped you to that conclusion?
    Asked and answered.
    I already gave you the verses, you simply went, "nuh-huh".
    That's YOUR problem, don't try to make it mine.

    Proclaiming yourself the victor doesnt make it so.
    Right back at ya, buttercup!

    Neither does ignoring an entire post due to inability/unwillingness to refute it.
    I didn't "ignore" anything.
    I answered you.
    You simply "nuh-huh'd" my answer.
    You clearly have no interest in "discussion".

    I am a human sinner like you, and I must have missed it. Can you please point to the post where you allegedly showed me?
    Edit per mod.
    If you really want to learn the answers edit per mod, you can learn them REALLY easily by reading:

    - Aurelius Augustine;
    - Martin Luther;
    - John Calvin;
    - John Owen;
    - John Gill;
    - Jonathan Edwards;
    - Charles Spurgeon;
    - George Whitefield;
    - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
    - Loraine Boettner;
    - R.C. Sproul;
    - John MacArthur;
    - Alistair Begg;
    - James White;

    Or if you aren't actually interested in learning, you'll simply ignore all this.
    It's your choice.
    Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:13 AM.
    "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
    but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
    -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Conqueror

      There is no security in Calvinism,
      unless apostolic witness is provided for TULIP


      that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
      (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).

      Roman Catholics are also very secure in their deception,
      for which they cannot provide those ESSENTIAL WITNESSES either.

      So much for the Reformation.


      .


      <Chuckle>

      You should do comedy clubs!
      You're funny!
      "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
      but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
      -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

      Comment



      • Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


        There is no security in Calvinism,
        unless apostolic witness is provided for TULIP


        that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
        (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).


        Originally posted by Theo1689;n58***94

        <Chuckle>

        You should do comedy clubs!
        You're funny!
        Edit all references to the canon of scripture.

        Posts regarding the canon of scripture by your personal statements are off topic in the A/C forum.



        .
        Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:20 AM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Theo1689;n58***67

          <sigh>

          I guess I don't really understand your position.

          You have provided what you seem to think is a compelling argument for your position.
          I consider it somewhat of a bankrupt argument.
          We each have a right to our opinion.

          I offered a response.
          You simply denied it in "Nuh-huh!" fashion,
          No matter.
          Makes no never mind to me.

          Then you asked me AGAIN.
          Guess what, buttercup? The answer HAS NOT CHANGED.
          So why are you asking me to give the same answer, when you have already summarily "Nuh-huh!!" it?
          You're wasting my time.


          I really don't get you.

          You seem to think (I can only assume) that you think you have offered some "compelling" argument.
          I don't think anyone else finds it the least bit compelling, but apparently you do.
          I for one don't.

          I choose to offer no (further) rebuttal, because I don't don't think there was anything significant in your post that NEEDED any "rebuttal".

          I'm perfectly happy to let the "discussion" end there.
          I'm not convinced.
          I've heard the same lame and bankrupt arguments from others, ten million times already, and they are no better now than they were the FIRST time (or the first thousand times) I heard them.

          From your perspective, you seem to think you have offered some "compelling" argument, and I have offered NOTHING in response.

          Why aren't you happy with that?
          I don't understand that.
          The only reason I can think of is that deep down, you KNOW your arguments aren't compelling, and you want to offer more.
          No problem!
          You are FREE to offer as many arguments as you wish.
          Nobody's stopping you.

          I can only conclude that you are simply some insecure "debate junkie" who is never satisfied, until everyone else in the world agrees with you (which will never happen).

          I'm perfectly content with my Biblical beliefs, even if others disagree with me.
          The only think I don't understand, is why are YOU not content?
          Why don't YOU have peace with God, like I do?

          Have a nice day!
          Ok this is getting weird. You made this statement....

          But the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin",

          ....in post #90 of this forum. I asked about it in post #98. In your subsequent responses, you NEVER gave a single citation of why you believe this. No a single one. All this posturing about what my argument is or isnt, and nothing to back up a word you say. I am not asking you to give the SAME answer, I am asking where does the bible teach our wills are enslavedE by sin. I denied the statement on its face, because of what paul says in romans 6. In doing so, I simply asked for the biblical basis of such an apparent falsehood. Edit insults.


          Asked and answered.
          You've already rejected the Biblical answer I gave you.
          So why should I waste my time repeating myself, when you have already made it clear that you're going to reject any answer I give you?
          Edit further insults
          Asked and answered.
          I already gave you the verses, you simply went, "nuh-huh".
          I went back again. You never gave a single verse.

          If you really want to learn the answers edit insult, you can learn them REALLY easily by reading:

          - Aurelius Augustine;
          - Martin Luther;
          - John Calvin;
          - John Owen;
          - John Gill;
          - Jonathan Edwards;
          - Charles Spurgeon;
          - George Whitefield;
          - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
          - Loraine Boettner;
          - R.C. Sproul;
          - John MacArthur;
          - Alistair Begg;
          - James White;
          This doesnt answer my question. I asked for biblical citations, you give me mens words who talk about the bible. I am not interested in what they have to say about the bible, I want the direct place the bible says that our will is enslaved by sin. You continue to dodge the question and carry on as if you answered it.

          Numerous personal attacks. Rule 12,22
          Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:01 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

            Are you fluent in Koine Greek?
            If you are not, I would suggest it is a bad idea to make arguments based on "the Greek", when you don't understand "the Greek".

            And btw, there is NO VERSE "Romans 5:40".
            So you don't seem to have a sufficient understanding of the Bible.



            You are correct.
            The verb, "to will" ("thelo") does appear in that verse.

            But we were talking about "FREE will", not merely the "will".

            NOBODY denies that men (people) have wills.
            What we deny is the Pelagian/Arminian heresy that our wills (which we have) are allegedly "free".



            Since "free will" is unBiblical, then obviously there is NO VERSE that teaches that the Canaanite woman had "free will".

            But the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin", and that we are "unable" to come to Christ, we are "unable" to please God, we are "unable" to understand the things of God.

            "enslaved" is the OPPOSITE of "free" (in case you weren't aware).
            "inability" is the OPPOSITE of "free" (in case you weren't aware).
            Yes, the correct verse is John 5:40:

            . . .you are not willing to come to Me, that you may have life.

            My bad.

            As far as the understanding of the subtleties of Koine Greek, I prefer to defer to the Greek fathers who spoke it as their native language and who understood that God gave humans the gift of free will. That is why Genesis says that humans were created in the image of God. As John Chrysostom said: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."

            As far as other examples from scripture that confirms this understanding consider this passage from Paul's speech to the people of Athens:

            From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:25-26

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post
              As John Chrysostom said: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."
              Well, two points:

              1) When Chysostom gets inserted into the Biblical canon, maybe his opinion will be significant.

              2) Nobody believes God draws anyone "by force and violence", so you are simply arguing against a straw-man.

              From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. Acts 17:25-26
              I've considered it.
              I've considered it about a hundred times.

              You're still wrong.

              What else have you got?
              "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
              but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
              -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

              Comment


              • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                Ok this is getting weird. You made this statement....

                But the Bible DOES teach in GENERAL, that our wills are not "free", but that they are "enslaved in sin",

                ....in post #90 of this forum. I asked about it in post #98. In your subsequent responses, you NEVER gave a single citation of why you believe this. No a single one. All this posturing about what my argument is or isnt, and nothing to back up a word you say. I am not asking you to give the SAME answer, I am asking where does the bible teach our wills are enslaved by sin. I denied the statement on its face, because of what paul says in romans 6. In doing so, I simply asked for the biblical basis of such an apparent falsehood. You havent answered this question, and are doing everything you can to avoid owning up to your false doctrine. If you dont feel you have to, that you can just spout out falsehoods without a lick of evidence, ok then, thats your free will choice to do so. But it crosses over into dishonesty when you falsely accuse me of being an "insecure debate junkie" for asking for the scripture that says our wills are enslaved by sin. In the "thousands" of conversations you have had, you never asked for a citation of something someone said? The honest answer is that yes, you have inquired many times for scripture to back up statements. All of a sudden when you are asked for a citation, we get this display.
                You apparently didn't understand my previous lengthy response to you.
                And if you can't understand that response to you, then further interaction would be pointless.

                Have a nice day.
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • This doesnt answer my question. I asked for biblical citations, you give me mens words who talk about the bible. I am not interested in what they have to say about the bible,
                  But I am also a "man".

                  So if you're not interested in their "men's words",
                  then you are likewise not interested in MY "men's words".

                  So why do you continue to harass me with your blatant double standards?
                  "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                  but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                  -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                    You apparently didn't understand my previous lengthy response to you.
                    And if you can't understand that response to you, then further interaction would be pointless.

                    Have a nice day.
                    You havent provided a response that gives me "book/chapter/verse" showing our wills are enslaved by sin. I gave you romans 6:16 which shows that we yield ourselves servant to sin, and romans 6:19 the shows our members (flesh) is whats actually the servant, not the will. We will our flesh to serve, the will isnt actually the servant. That lines up perfectly with the precept joshua 24:15 provides, where he told them to choose who they would serve, going along the line of ot freewill.

                    Do what I just did.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                      But I am also a "man".

                      So if you're not interested in their "men's words",
                      then you are likewise not interested in MY "men's words".

                      So why do you continue to harass me with your blatant double standards?
                      I already have your words ("mans will is enslaved by sin"), I am asking for the book/chapter/verse that says as much. Thats not a double standard, please follow along.

                      Apologies if you feel harassed by me asking you to back up your false statements. I wont ask anymore, your silence on the matter has said more than you can at this point anyway.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                        You havent provided a response that gives me "book/chapter/verse" showing our wills are enslaved by sin.
                        <sigh>

                        I have.
                        But you simply refuse to admit it.

                        You simply want to "nuh-huh" any answer I give, as if that accomplishes anything.
                        If you are okay with that, then more power to you.

                        I continue to fail to understand why you are apparently not satisfied with me not responding to you.
                        You can claim a hollow "victory"!
                        You can "celebrate".
                        You can claim you "won"!

                        Why does that not satisfy you?
                        (That's a rhetorical question, btw, I'm not the least bit interested in any answer.)

                        I gave you romans 6:16 which shows that we yield ourselves servant to sin, and romans 6:19 the shows our members (flesh) is whats actually the servant, not the will. We will our flesh to serve, the will isnt actually the servant. That lines up perfectly with the precept joshua 24:15 provides, where he told them to choose who they would serve, going along the line of ot freewill.
                        Both passages are twisted hopelessly out of context.
                        You are free to disagree.
                        You have convinced NOBODY.

                        I'm perfectly content to let the discussion end here.
                        If you see yourself as the "victor", then why aren't you?

                        Do what I just did.
                        There are two things in this world that I know:

                        1) Jesus Christ is my Lord. He tells me what to do.
                        2) You are not my Lord. You do not tell me what to do.

                        Get over yourself.
                        "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                        but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                        -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                          I already have your words ("mans will is enslaved by sin"), I am asking for the book/chapter/verse that says as much. Thats not a double standard, please follow along.

                          Apologies if you feel harassed by me asking you to back up your false statements. I wont ask anymore, your silence on the matter has said more than you can at this point anyway.
                          It's not "silence".
                          And I will remind you that bearing false witness is a sin.

                          I DID answer you.
                          You simply answered, "nuh-huh", and continued asking me the same question, pretending I never answered you.
                          I'm sorry that you feel so insecure in your beliefs, that you are so bothered that people disagree with you.
                          I would never want to live that way.
                          "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                          --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                          but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                          -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by cadwell View Post

                            I wont ask anymore,
                            Again, I don't believe you.
                            But time will tell.
                            "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                            "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                            but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                            -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                            Comment



                            • Originally posted by Theophilos View Post

                              As John Chrysostom said: "God never draws anyone to Himself by force and violence. He wishes all men to be saved, but forces no one."
                              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                              Well, two points:

                              1) When Chysostom gets inserted into the Biblical canon, maybe his opinion will be significant.

                              2) Nobody believes God draws anyone "by force and violence", so you are simply arguing against a straw-man.
                              (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1),

                              [/QUOTE]


                              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                              There are two things in this world that I know:

                              1) Jesus Christ is my Lord. He tells me what to do.
                              2) You are not my Lord. You do not tell me what to do.

                              Get over yourself.



                              (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1),

                              All references to the Roman Canon have been deleted. They are off topic for the A/C forum.
                              Last edited by Mod20; 02-22-19, 01:30 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by cadwell View Post
                                But I am also a "man".

                                So if you're not interested in their "men's words",
                                then you are likewise not interested in MY "men's words".

                                So why do you continue to harass me with your blatant double standards?
                                I already have your words ("mans will is enslaved by sin"), I am asking for the book/chapter/verse that says as much. Thats not a double standard, please follow along.
                                And those books can give you the EXACT same answer as I could (and already have) given you, so it IS a blatant double standard.

                                "Please follow along."
                                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                                Comment

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