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Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

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  • Sketo
    started a topic Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

    Calvinists can tell the difference... can you?

    Where does the Bible teach that “”mans choice is free””?

    Where does the Bible teach that “”mans will is free””?

  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post



    Paul clearly states: As it is written:

    There is none righteous, no, not one;
    There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God
    (Ro 3:10-11).

    "NONE seek after God" was written by David,
    who supposedly had a heart for God.
    Paul exposed that self-refuting deception rather well.

    Your argument is with Paul.

    Originally posted by armylngst View Post

    It was Paul who made the final statement that none seek after God.
    Seek and you shall find is wrong in that case.

    Enjoy those opinions.




    Leave a comment:


  • armylngst
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


    Paul clearly states: As it is written:

    There is none righteous, no, not one;
    There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God
    (Ro 3:10-11).

    "NONE seek after God" was written by David,
    who supposedly had a heart for God.
    Paul exposed that self-refuting deception rather well.

    Your argument is with Paul.





    I think that it is funny (hilarious even) that even after I posted what David wrote, you still say that "NONE seek after God" was written by David. This is where Paul got what he wrote, but you will notice what David wrote and what Paul wrote are not exactly the same. David basically said that God looked to see if there was anyone who understood God, if there was anyone who sought after God. He said the all turned aside, and all are corrupt. It was Paul who made the final statement that none seek after God. With David it is the understand that none even know who God is, or understands Him. The only way that can be remedied is if God changes that. I don't understand this war you have against God being the one who stirs the hearts and souls of men so they are no longer corrupt and depraved. Everyone starts that way. (God is quite clear.) It is also clear in scripture that not everyone stays that way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by armylngst View Post

    You may want to get your Bible verses straight. David did not write "NONE seek after God" only Paul wrote that. Paul added that to what David had written, so that idea is solely given by God through Paul.

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt,
    They have done abominable works,
    There is none who does good.
    The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
    To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
    They have all turned aside,
    They have together become corrupt;
    There is none who does good,
    No, not one. (Psalm 53:1–3)

    Where did David write none seek after God? One can see that theme here, but he does not say it directly. Paul did.

    Paul clearly states: As it is written:

    There is none righteous, no, not one;
    There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God
    (Ro 3:10-11).

    "NONE seek after God" was written by David,
    who supposedly had a heart for God.
    Paul exposed that self-refuting deception rather well.

    Your argument is with Paul.






    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by armylngst View Post

    You have it backwards. Any consideration of those passages must include Romans 3:10. If we are left to ourselves, and God never comes, no one can be saved. We are too busy going our own way. That is what Paul is saying. In our natural habitat, and our natural environment, we do not seek after God. No one does. Why? We don't care. We are going our own way. God doesn't make anyone go their own way, because they are perfectly capable of figuring that out all on their own. However, for us to seek after God, God has to come to us. This is understood. There may be many different ways that God affects change in people so they stop going their own way and seek after Him, but without God, they will never seek after Him.

    Romans 3:10 is not a verse of damnation or loss of all hope. It just says that men are degenerate, and on their own do not seek after God because they have all gone their own way. Men are depraved in and of themselves. They cannot conquer sin on their own because sin is their best friend. Their master. Only God can break the hold sin has on man. The sin nature is a real thing. There were consequences to Adam's sin. No one escapes those consequences, unless God has affected their escape.

    Once again, the idea is not that man is totally depraved and cannot be saved, but that on their own, men are totally depraved, but God is the one who makes salvation possible, so when God moves, men who were totally depraved are saved. Why? Because God saved them. How? God's intervention in bringing about the rebirth within the soul's of men. Even Nicodemus understood that men cannot be born again on their own. We can't just go back to the womb and then be born again. It is an act of God. Start with God, and work your way out from there. I understand you believe that we have the ability to bypass God in salvation, but I believe that God is sovereign, and no one can go around Him.
    Tom replies

    Faith/repentance precede rebirth (regeneration)

    Ezekiel 18:30-31 (KJV)
    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
    31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    Regeneration is new life. New life is not had until faith

    John 5:24 (KJV)
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    John 5:40 (KJV)
    40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

    John 20:31 (KJV)
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.



    Leave a comment:


  • armylngst
    replied
    Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Any consideration of Romans 3:10 must include these


    2 Chronicles 14:7 (KJV)
    7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side. So they built and prospered.

    2 Chronicles 15:4 (KJV)
    4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

    2 Chronicles 15:12 (KJV)
    12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

    2 Chronicles 15:15 (KJV)
    15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about.

    2 Chronicles 17:3 (KJV)
    3 And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;

    2 Chronicles 17:4 (KJV)
    4 But sought to the LORD God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

    2 Chronicles 20:3 (KJV)
    3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

    2 Chronicles 20:4 (KJV)
    4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.

    2 Chronicles 26:5 (KJV)
    5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.

    You have it backwards. Any consideration of those passages must include Romans 3:10. If we are left to ourselves, and God never comes, no one can be saved. We are too busy going our own way. That is what Paul is saying. In our natural habitat, and our natural environment, we do not seek after God. No one does. Why? We don't care. We are going our own way. God doesn't make anyone go their own way, because they are perfectly capable of figuring that out all on their own. However, for us to seek after God, God has to come to us. This is understood. There may be many different ways that God affects change in people so they stop going their own way and seek after Him, but without God, they will never seek after Him.

    Romans 3:10 is not a verse of damnation or loss of all hope. It just says that men are degenerate, and on their own do not seek after God because they have all gone their own way. Men are depraved in and of themselves. They cannot conquer sin on their own because sin is their best friend. Their master. Only God can break the hold sin has on man. The sin nature is a real thing. There were consequences to Adam's sin. No one escapes those consequences, unless God has affected their escape.

    Once again, the idea is not that man is totally depraved and cannot be saved, but that on their own, men are totally depraved, but God is the one who makes salvation possible, so when God moves, men who were totally depraved are saved. Why? Because God saved them. How? God's intervention in bringing about the rebirth within the soul's of men. Even Nicodemus understood that men cannot be born again on their own. We can't just go back to the womb and then be born again. It is an act of God. Start with God, and work your way out from there. I understand you believe that we have the ability to bypass God in salvation, but I believe that God is sovereign, and no one can go around Him.

    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by armylngst View Post

    You may want to get your Bible verses straight. David did not write "NONE seek after God" only Paul wrote that. Paul added that to what David had written, so that idea is solely given by God through Paul.

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt,
    They have done abominable works,
    There is none who does good.
    The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
    To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
    They have all turned aside,
    They have together become corrupt;
    There is none who does good,
    No, not one. (Psalm 53:1–3)

    Where did David write none seek after God? One can see that theme here, but he does not say it directly. Paul did.
    Any consideration of Romans 3:10 must include these


    2 Chronicles 14:7 (KJV)
    7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side. So they built and prospered.

    2 Chronicles 15:4 (KJV)
    4 But when they in their trouble did turn unto the LORD God of Israel, and sought him, he was found of them.

    2 Chronicles 15:12 (KJV)
    12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;

    2 Chronicles 15:15 (KJV)
    15 And all Judah rejoiced at the oath: for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about.

    2 Chronicles 17:3 (KJV)
    3 And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;

    2 Chronicles 17:4 (KJV)
    4 But sought to the LORD God of his father, and walked in his commandments, and not after the doings of Israel.

    2 Chronicles 20:3 (KJV)
    3 And Jehoshaphat feared, and set himself to seek the LORD, and proclaimed a fast throughout all Judah.

    2 Chronicles 20:4 (KJV)
    4 And Judah gathered themselves together, to ask help of the LORD: even out of all the cities of Judah they came to seek the LORD.

    2 Chronicles 26:5 (KJV)
    5 And he sought God in the days of Zechariah, who had understanding in the visions of God: and as long as he sought the LORD, God made him to prosper.


    Leave a comment:


  • armylngst
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post



    Quite easy, for there was always a remnant,
    which sought after God by keeping
    the 613 commandments of the Law.

    "NONE seek after God" was written by David,
    who supposedly had a heart for God.

    Paul exposed that self-refuting deception rather well.


    You may want to get your Bible verses straight. David did not write "NONE seek after God" only Paul wrote that. Paul added that to what David had written, so that idea is solely given by God through Paul.

    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.”
    They are corrupt,
    They have done abominable works,
    There is none who does good.
    The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
    To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
    They have all turned aside,
    They have together become corrupt;
    There is none who does good,
    No, not one. (Psalm 53:1–3)

    Where did David write none seek after God? One can see that theme here, but he does not say it directly. Paul did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post
    I never asked you to.
    Well you're on a web site making recommendations which goes out to the general audience. And yes I'm out here.


    I'm frequently not interested in discussing certain topics with individuals who are only going to twist my words and misrepresent me. I am of the opinion that such "discussion" is not productive. That is not anything negative on the Canons of Dort, it speaks more of the individuals. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.
    You're sorry but not enough to have a care about what I believe or don't? As you stated, "I've repeatedly stated that I have no desire to change your beliefs."


    No, I dismiss writers that don't teach Biblical truths.
    And you must know Theo such is why people dismiss the list of writers on your list.

    And as for "insulting people", you have FAR more experience in that than I EVER will.
    Well like I've said repeatedly I'm quite content to allow unbiased readers make their assessments concerning that. Absolutely everything is on record and neither your claim nor mine is a winning argument. What you define as an insult others might define that you were merely being challenged. But we'll never know what all lurkers think.

    I'm certainly not perfect, by any means.
    But since you asked, I'd have to say 95-98% fair and consistent.
    Well that's one opinion. Other opinions may vary.

    I know you disagree, since your only purpose here is to try to discredit me.
    More's the pity.
    Well yes in a sense my only purpose can be said to discredit Calvinistic/Reformed type of thinking. NOT on a great many others things however on the fundamental things of the faith but on the subjects and themes of what this sub-forum is all about. YES. One way of doing that is revealing how many Calvinists are not being consistent or making rational sense and think the examples are many. None of this has t be personal. I've had friends who have been Calvinistic and I view them as dear brothers. Anyways,

    PEACE

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo1689
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post


    (I made bold your line above)


    But then again didn't you say to another poster?? :

    Your words: "I'm not interested in discussing "the Canons of Dort".
    Did you see "Canons of Dort" in that list?
    No, you did not.

    You don't seem to understand what "sola Scriptura" teaches.
    It does NOT teach that when we discuss issues, we are prohibited from answering in any way other than quoting Bible verses without elaboration.

    Why do you guys think it is useful or productive to make claims (not quoted from the Bible), but if I direct you to other books that do the same thing, it's suddenly a "problem"?

    If you think it's productive for people to discuss the Bible without ALWAYS quoting it directly, then you are engaging in double standards when I suggest books which do the same thing.

    So if we take your advice why should I or anyone give you or your Calvinists teachers the time of day?
    I never asked you to.
    I've repeatedly stated that I have no desire to change your beliefs.
    If you don't want to believe in Calvinism, then congratulations!
    Don't believe in Calvinism.

    But I think you should consider anything I say in the same way we should consider anything YOU say.
    And that is this:

    Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    What did you tell that poster again who encouraged you to read the Canons of Dort?You're not interested.
    Yes, that is correct.
    I'm frequently not interested in discussing certain topics with individuals who are only going to twist my words and misrepresent me. I am of the opinion that such "discussion" is not productive. That is not anything negative on the Canons of Dort, it speaks more of the individuals. I'm sorry if you can't understand that.

    You said Christians are "sola Scriptura" So you dismiss every writer which is not of your paradigm and insult people who may not be interested in reading yours.
    No, I dismiss writers that don't teach Biblical truths.
    And as for "insulting people", you have FAR more experience in that than I EVER will.

    So tell me something dear brother. How fair and consistent are your statements?
    I'm certainly not perfect, by any means.
    But since you asked, I'd have to say 95-98% fair and consistent.

    I know you disagree, since your only purpose here is to try to discredit me.
    More's the pity.

    And you're not all over the map on these issues? I'm sorry but it seems you're saying one thing one day and going the opposite direction the next. So obviously I can be interested in learning and still ignore your teachers. They are not a MUST! You said it yourself! Sola Scriptura!!!
    <sigh>

    Thank you for the mockery.
    God will surely bless me for it.

    So perhaps you might want to recant now in suggesting if we ignore them were not interested in learning?
    There's no need for me to "recant".
    What I spoke was truth.

    Sorry but your own words testify against you.
    I respectfully disagree.

    I will not say this though. I have read writings from many of those gentlemen and nope I'm sorry I don't find their arguments compelling.
    That's not my problem.
    At least you read some of them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post



    Edit per mod.
    If you really want to learn the answers edit per mod, you can learn them REALLY easily by reading:

    - Aurelius Augustine;
    - Martin Luther;
    - John Calvin;
    - John Owen;
    - John Gill;
    - Jonathan Edwards;
    - Charles Spurgeon;
    - George Whitefield;
    - D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones;
    - Loraine Boettner;
    - R.C. Sproul;
    - John MacArthur;
    - Alistair Begg;
    - James White;

    Or if you aren't actually interested in learning, you'll simply ignore all this.
    It's your choice.

    (I made bold your line above)

    But then again didn't you say to another poster?? :

    Your words: "I'm not interested in discussing "the Canons of Dort".

    Christians are "sola Scriptura".


    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...67#post5841767

    So if we take your advice why should I or anyone give you or your Calvinists teachers the time of day? What did you tell that poster again who encouraged you to read the Canons of Dort?You're not interested. You said Christians are "sola Scriptura" So you dismiss every writer which is not of your paradigm and insult people who may not be interested in reading yours.

    So tell me something dear brother. How fair and consistent are your statements? And you're not all over the map on these issues? I'm sorry but it seems you're saying one thing one day and going the opposite direction the next. So obviously I can be interested in learning and still ignore your teachers. They are not a MUST! You said it yourself! Sola Scriptura!!!

    So perhaps you might want to recant now in suggesting if we ignore them were not interested in learning? Sorry but your own words testify against you.

    I will not say this though. I have read writings from many of those gentlemen and nope I'm sorry I don't find their arguments compelling.

    Thanks however for the interesting inroad to a discussion.





    Leave a comment:


  • TomL
    replied
    Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

    Yet there is ZERO Biblical evidence for that imaginary idea.

    Go figure.
    Tom replies

    Yeah the bible always talks about things that don't exist

    Leviticus 7:16 (YLT) 16 `And if the sacrifice of his offering is a vow or free-will offering, in the day of his bringing near his sacrifice it is eaten; and on the morrow also the remnant of it is eaten;

    Numbers 15:3 (YLT) 3 then ye have prepared a fire-offering to Jehovah, a burnt-offering, or a sacrifice, at separating a vow or free-will-offering, or in your appointed things, to make a sweet fragrance to Jehovah, out of the herd, or out of the flock.

    Numbers 29:39 (YLT) 39 `These ye prepare to Jehovah in your appointed seasons, apart from your vows, and your free-will offerings, for your burnt-offerings, and for your presents, and for your libations, and for your peace-offerings.'

    Deuteronomy 12:6 (YLT) 6 and hast brought in thither your burnt-offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and the heave-offering of your hand, and your vows, and your free-will offerings, and the firstlings of your herd and of your flock;

    Deuteronomy 12:17 (YLT) 17 thou art not able to eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, and of thy new wine, and thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herd and of thy flock, and any of thy vows which thou vowest, and thy free-will offerings, and heave-offering of thy hand;

    Deuteronomy 16:10 (YLT) 10 and thou hast made the feast of weeks to Jehovah thy God, a tribute of a free-will offering of thy hand, which thou dost give, as Jehovah thy God doth bless thee.

    Deuteronomy 23:23 (YLT) 23 The produce of thy lips thou dost keep, and hast done it, as thou hast vowed to Jehovah thy God; a free-will-offering, which thou hast spoken with thy mouth.

    Ezra 1:4 (YLT) 4 `And every one who is left, of any of the places where he is a sojourner, assist him do the men of his place with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, along with a free-will offering for the house of God, that is in Jerusalem.'

    Ezra 7:16 (YLT) 16 and all the silver and gold that thou findest in all the province of Babylon, with the free-will offerings of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly, for the house of their God that is in Jerusalem,

    Psalm 54:6 (YLT) 6 With a free will-offering I sacrifice to Thee, I thank Thy name, O Jehovah, for it is good,

    Psalm 68:9 (YLT) 9 A shower of free-will gifts thou shakest out, O God. Thine inheritance, when it hath been weary, Thou hast established it.

    Psalm 110:3 (YLT) 3 Thy people are free-will gifts in the day of Thy strength, in the honours of holiness, From the womb, from the morning, Thou hast the dew of thy youth.

    Psalm 119:108 (YLT) 108 Free-will-offerings of my mouth, Accept, I pray Thee, O Jehovah, And Thy judgments teach Thou me.

    Ezekiel 46:12 (YLT) 12 And when the prince maketh a free-will burnt-offering, or free-will peace-offerings, to Jehovah, then he hath opened for himself the gate that is looking eastward, and he hath made his burnt-offering and his peace-offerings as he doth in the day of rest, and he hath gone out, and he hath shut the gate after his going out.

    Philemon 1:14 (NASB) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.

    Philemon 1:14 (HCSB) 14 But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, but of your own free will.

    Deuteronomy 18:6 (NET1) 6 Suppose a Levite comes by his own free will[9] from one of your villages, from any part of Israel where he is living,[10] to the place the LORD chooses

    John 10:18 (NET1) 18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down[45] of my own free will.[46] I have the authority[47] to lay it down, and I have the authority[48] to take it back again. This commandment[49] I received from my Father.”

    Leave a comment:


  • Rockson
    replied
    nil
    Last edited by Rockson; 04-01-19, 02:55 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ttruscott
    replied
    I never offered you my "opinion".
    I only shared THE BIBLE with you.
    Your interpretation of what the bible means IS your opinion.

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo1689
    replied
    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
    I'd say their spirits KNOW young children or babies would be go to Heaven if they died
    Yet there is ZERO Biblical evidence for that imaginary idea.

    Go figure.

    Leave a comment:

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