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Who shall be saved ?

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Josheb View Post
    .
    What is stated above is the evidence Josheb provided in support of his claim

    That Christ drags men in judgment

    No verses are provided stating it

    No evidence that helko means to drag in any passage referencing Christ



    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      What is stated above is the evidence Josheb provided in support of his claim

      That Christ drags men in judgment

      No verses are provided stating it

      No evidence that helko means to drag in any passage referencing Christ
      Never claimed any verses stated it.

      Just one more example of misrepresentation. Plenty of evidence was provided supporting the position Jesus draws all people to him in either judgment or salvation and not solely one or the other. Arguments from silence like the one now being attempted are one more example of fallacy and the failed logic that drives such things. Proving mwhat I posted correct (again and agina and again.....).


      Evidence proves you wrong.
      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by GISMYS View Post
        Yes!! "
        The Gospel is hidden from them that choose to reject it!
        It is not hidden because they reject it, they reject it because it is hidden. Otherwise, how does a person reject something that they don't even know is there (since it is hidden)?

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
          Never claimed any verses stated it.

          Just one more example of misrepresentation. Plenty of evidence was provided supporting the position Jesus draws all people to him in either judgment or salvation and not solely one or the other. Arguments from silence like the one now being attempted are one more example of fallacy and the failed logic that drives such things. Proving mwhat I posted correct (again and agina and again.....).


          Evidence proves you wrong.
          Tom had posted

          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          John 12:32 (KJV)
          32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


          To which Josheb stated




          Yes, some he will draw to him in judgment, and others he will draw to him in salvation.
          Jesus did not say, " I will draw all men to me in salvation ." Note the " all
          ." All will be drawn. In the end there won't be a choice; no one will be able to choose not to be drawn. He will in point of sovereign almighty fact draw all to him.
          And..... if we don't proof-text that verse and continue to read on we learn God has revealed Christ to some and blinded, deafened, and made ignorant others lest they be converted and He heal them
          Tom notes

          You provided no evidence at all that Jn 12:32 speaks of Christ drawing men in judgment

          First of all Calvinists reject the idea of Christ dragging believers. It is contrary to the idea they willingly come

          so drag is not even a Calvinisticly tenable meaning. Helko speaks more of a moral persuasion to come to him

          but Christ does not morally persuade the unrighteous to come for him for judgment

          thus your claim for the verse is untenable

          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #80
            If you never heard the gospel then how could you reject it?
            Yes!! "

            The Gospel is hidden from them that choose to reject it!

            Comment


            • #81
              You imply regeneration in order to believe?
              Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

              Absolutly.
              It's just that regeneration is not found in the verses you provided.
              Post#67
              Eph 2...which is straight from the bible tells us...4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

              Believers were dead....then made alive...through grace

              A few verses later we learn grace and faith are a gift from God. An unearned gift.

              8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

              The verse you quote is in refernce to words in John's book. As we all know the gift of faith can be received this way.....So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
              1Peter 1:18,19 Redeemed ... with the precious blood of Christ

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Sean Stewart View Post

                All that you say is conditioned on a person believing. Of course people are blind that refuse to believe. But you seem to ignore people that believed God's promise a long time before Christ came. Did they learn about God's promise on their own, or did God give people that believed Him that promise. If you study Abraham in the OT, Abraham had faith in God and did things by faith even before the promise was given to Him. Never though was Abraham reckoned as righteous until he believed that promise of an heir that God gave him. And of course any Jew or Gentile that sat under OT teaching knew of God's promise of a coming Messiah-----and looked forward to the day of the Messiah. Of course they were destined to believe the fulfillment of God's promise.

                Turning to God as a sinner is always important because the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. And the Scriptures (breathed by God) give us the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Jesus. Now a person that refuses to believe God will never believe God became man and dwelt amongst us.

                Also you will never find one person that comes to Christ that doesn't believe God. Neither will you find one person that can legitimately say they believe God yet reject the Son (I Jn 5:9ff). The same held true in the OT but in a different way. A person in the OT would never believe God's promise if they first did not believe God. Further no Jew could claim to believe God and yet reject His promise.

                It is those that have both heard from and learned from the Father that come to Christ. "LEARNED FROM" requires believing what God says. We all come because God (in the Scriptures) says there is no other way to be reconciled to Him, except by faith in His Son.



                This is spam !

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                  I'd like you to look at what just happened.

                  1) You posted an op.
                  2) You clarified that op.
                  3) I post a response to the op.
                  4) I receive a post telling me you don't think I understand your point.
                  5) I ask for clarification of that point.
                  6) I then receive "I already clarified it."


                  If you clarified it and I still don't understand then you telling me I still don't get it but you're not gonna help me get it doesn't solve the problem.

                  Either point to the clarification or clarify it further or stop telling me I don't understand it.





                  If the point of this op is, "Calling upon the Name of the Lord is an evidence of the Lord having healed/saved one from the bondage and darkness of sin. That's why Hes our Praise, not anything we have done!" then I fully understand and completely agree and nothing I posted should be construed otherwise. If the point to be made is, "The lost can't do anything. The Gospel is hidden from them!" then I fully understand and completely agree and nothing I posted should be construed to say otherwise. If the point to be made is, "A lost person doesn't have any workings inwardly of the Holy Spirit because they don't have the Spirit and they're lost," then I fully understand and completely agree and nothing I posted should be construed otherwise.


                  So when I post an exegetically sound summary of the op-cited Romans 10 scripture undeniably demonstrating God uniformly doing (all) the work and not the dead sinner doing (any of) the work that could and should be understood as scriptural evidence supporting the point(s) Calling upon the Name of the Lord is an evidence of the Lord having healed/saved one from the bondage and darkness of sin. That's why Hes our Praise, not anything we have done! The lost can't do anything. The Gospel is hidden from them! A lost person doesn't have any workings inwardly of the Holy Spirit because they don't have the Spirit and they're lost, it could and should likewise be understood the point was understood.



                  So either accept I did in fact understand and added to the argument supporting that point

                  or

                  clarify the point,

                  or

                  explain how it is what I posted leads you to believe I don't understand your point.,

                  or post something to the effect of,

                  "Oh, I see now that my point was understood and I appreciate the exposition in support of that point."



                  Dead slaves of sin don't call upon a God they deny, so neither Romans 10:13 nor 2 Cor. 4:3-4 should be construed applicable to dead slaves.
                  Like I said, I made my point in the OP

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                    Never claimed any verses stated it.

                    Just one more example of misrepresentation. Plenty of evidence was provided supporting the position Jesus draws all people to him in either judgment or salvation and not solely one or the other. Arguments from silence like the one now being attempted are one more example of fallacy and the failed logic that drives such things. Proving mwhat I posted correct (again and agina and again.....).


                    Evidence proves you wrong.
                    Tom replies

                    Once again You provided no real evidence

                    and you have no examples of where this word is used in reference to Christ bringing the wicked to judgment

                    The verse under discussion is

                    John 12:32 (KJV)
                    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

                    You claimed in reference to this drawing some are dragged to judgment
                    while others in salvation

                    seeing as Calvinist do not believe Christ drags those who would believe in him for that would be against their will and that the word means to draw by moral persuasion

                    It makes no sense to claim Christ uses moral persuasion to bring the wicked to judgment

                    No misrepresentation just fact you have no evidence this verse refers to and such thing




                    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                      Like I said, I made my point in the OP
                      And then you said i missed it and are now refusing to explain that post despite repeated requests to do so.
                      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by TomL View Post
                        Once again You provided no real evidence
                        The evidence says otherwise.


                        The evidence is there is evidence and that evidence refutes your position. All you have is "There is not evidence" when everyone can read otherwise.
                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post
                          You provided no evidence at all that Jn 12:32 speaks of Christ drawing men in judgment
                          I most certainly did.

                          You may agree with that evidence but to deny the evidence was posted is delusional.
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            And then you said i missed it and are now refusing to explain that post despite repeated requests to do so.
                            If u missed it you missed it.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                              If u missed it you missed it.
                              It has yet to be proven any such condition exists. You certainly have not provided any evidence I missed anything. And you have been asked.


                              Presumably I could not post in support of the point if said point was missed, so let me try this: what is it about my op-reply that leads you to conclude I missed the point of the op?
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                                I most certainly did.

                                You may agree with that evidence but to deny the evidence was posted is delusional.
                                Tom replies

                                fraid not

                                Once again You provided no real evidence

                                and you have no examples of where this word is used in reference to Christ bringing the wicked to judgment

                                The verse under discussion is

                                John 12:32 (KJV)
                                32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all
                                men
                                unto me.

                                You claimed in reference to this drawing some are dragged to judgment
                                while others in salvation

                                seeing as Calvinist do not believe Christ drags those who would believe in him for that would be against their will and that the word means to draw by moral persuasion

                                It makes no sense to claim Christ uses moral persuasion to bring the wicked to judgment

                                No misrepresentation just fact you have no evidence this verse refers to any such thing

                                Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                                Comment

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