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God's Sovereign Will vs Man's will

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  • #61


    Originally posted by TomL View Post
    Tom replies

    You may affirm what you will but

    Genesis 1:1 (KJV)
    1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Says nothing at all about God determining all of man's sin



    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]

    Causation was our subject, not determinism. Review your demand:

    Tom replies

    You were asked below
    Provide scripture which states God is the cause of all of man's sin

    We know Gen 1:1 does not say that though you affirmed

    I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]


    Either you are giving me a Red Herring or you are equating causation with determinism. (In this case, if God ultimately caused all things in existence, then He ultimately determined all things in existence)

    Which is it? Red Herring or Hard Determinism?

    Tom replies

    You have already stated God caused all things

    Show where Gen 1:1 makes God the cause of man's sin

    The bible states his creation was good

    You are on record stating

    I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

    So you affirm God is the cause of man's sin ?

    If you believe that say so
    Tom replies

    Again you may presume but your presumptions prove nothing


    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]


    I disagree. My presumptions prove that I am capable of expressing my thoughts.

    Tom replies

    Nothing we were discussing



    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]
    My presumptions prove things.

    I am aware that my presumption proves nothing critical relative to our discussion. I state some of my presumptions partially for our readers, and partially for you, so that my views may be better understood.

    Tom replies

    If you want to be understood respond to the questions

    Thus far we

    I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

    but you object to the idea God determined all things


    Tom replies

    From his own free will

    It was given by God



    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]


    Thank you for answering. I have established this in my last message.

    God is all power, therefore man's will is driven by God's power. God's power is under God's control, therefore man's will is under God's control.

    Do you not agree with this?

    Tom replies

    everyone agrees God is in control

    That never was the issue.
    And You have as much justification for blaming God for sin as you have for blaming an automobile manufacturer for someone deliberately taking a car and driving it into a crowd of people killing many


    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]


    1.) God is not an automobile manufacturer. God is over the automobile manufacturer and the man in the car. So how is this relevant?

    Tom replies

    It was an analogy and The principle is the same


    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]
    2.) Perhaps the automobile manufacturer is the one driving the car, purposely killing a crowd of evil so that many good can live. In this case, to affirm that the automobile manufacturer decreed this act would be to state the truth and highlight the power of the automobile manufacturer.

    Tom replies

    The auto manufacturer was differentiated from someone driving the car




    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]
    3.) I am not blaming God. He has done no wrong. The only way for God to do wrong by being the author of sin is if He makes a law that says He cannot be the author of sin. Did you already make this law for Him?

    Tom replies

    So you state God is the cause of all things

    but not the blame ?

    Is that right ?


    [QUOTE=Calvert;n5914372]
    Please address my points and explain how your claim is truthful.

    Or concede it.

    Tom replies

    I have to assume you are still talking about foreknowledge

    That has already been addressed

    Foreknowledge is not causation

    No I am not arguing against foreknowledge I am arguing that certainty of knowledge does not equal necessity

    That is a modal fallacy




    I have demonstrated how you are arguing against God's foreknowledge and intelligence. Please further address my demonstration.

    Also, feel free to go further in detail about the certainty of knowledge not equating with necessity. I may be interested in addressing this as well.

    Tom replies

    No you have not

    You assumed foreknow and cause amount to the same thingc

    Tom replies

    Your problem is not with me but scripture

    Jeremiah 19:5 (KJV)
    5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

    The obvious meaning is they did something were not instructed to do


    They did something they were not instructed to do.

    This does not mean God didn't decree it.

    Tom replies

    And how did he get them to accomplish is decree





    God has determined to reveal.

    Revelation is in the resistance.

    God has determined the resistance.

    I notice you state you are not reformed ?

    And you also stated you are not a Calvinist ?

    Well what are you ?


    I am a Christian.

    Tom replies

    You are not a Calvinist

    You are not reformed

    You say you want to be understood

    but it seems you go out of your way to not be understood






    Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Rockson View Post

      Again we're talking about here our repsonse to God....but we were talking about What God Is, as in God is LOVE.

      You do understand however that it was not I which stated, God has not given us a spirit of fear but of love and of power and of a sound mind? 2 Tm 1:7 And you do understand it was God that stated that perfect love casts our fear for fear has torment? 1 John 4:18 Just so you know that you don't say you're wrong because.....nope. As you can see I just quoted the verses. But how do we reconcile the two seemingly contradictory passages of what you shared and what I have? The fear of the Lord in serving him is not an oppressive fear one has about his being of a bad character. The fear of the Lord is not negative at all but is a reverence to God. It just recognized we well all stand before God one day and we have a healthy holy reverence in regard to that reality and live out our lives with that in mind. But it's still a LOVE response.
      Rockson, God did not destroy the first world out of Love. Pharaoh was destoyed to Show God's power and Glory. To the People he Loved, but for Pharaoh their was no Love.


      So do you actually think God has some unique love towards one actual ethnic group over another? The word love in the passage has more to do with showing preference over other nations and that is with a goal in mind that through Israel all the nations would be blessed.
      Yes, as God so Pointed out.



      Why should this be such a foreign incomprehensible thing for you to accept? If a judge's offspring were guilty of crimes worthy of death would the judge still not love his wayward one for the reason even though he had to judge in favor of his execution? Isn't he bound by a higher priority to maintain justice even though it'd break his heart?

      1 John 3:2,12 KJV
      Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [12] Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

      Or do I rather just want to see that verse plus others rightly understood on what it's meaning. When Jesus said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple." So with all due respect when he says this it it your take he's REALLY telling them to HATE is father and mother? Also his wife and children? What about honor your mother and father? Eph 6:2 What about love your wife as Christ loved the church? Eph 5:25 And we can talk about the kids too but please consider you might just need reexamine your position on that matter about what hate in those verses mean.
      Rockson, Here in america, we have a different life style. There are Countries where being a Christian is against the Law and punishable by death. You may have to hate your parents to Love Christ. Your unGodly Parents could turn you in to Authories.
      Knowledge is knowing the word. Understanding is having God's word revealed to you. Wisdom is knowing how to use God's word.

      Comment


      • #63
        Tom, you have ignored many of my questions. This shows that you are not here to talk to me, but for another reason. I presume you want to defend your theology. If we talk, I would appreciate if you answer my questions, at least when I bring them up for a second time.

        Let's continue our conversation:

        Originally posted by TomL View Post
        Tom replies

        You were asked below
        Provide scripture which states God is the cause of all of man's sin

        We know Gen 1:1 does not say that though you affirmed
        Who is we? Not I.

        Tom replies

        You have already stated God caused all things

        Show where Gen 1:1 makes God the cause of man's sin
        Gen 1:1
        In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

        The bolded text is the highlighted area which teaches that our Creator is the cause of all things.

        I presume your belief of free will or some other unscriptural assumption is what apparently blinds you from seeing this. My bolded text is an attempt to show you, but I doubt it will do much for you.

        The bible states his creation was good
        Correct.

        You are on record stating

        I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

        So you affirm God is the cause of man's sin ?

        If you believe that say so
        Tom, please take me at my word. You are clearly aware that I affirm: "God is the cause of everything" Yet you just went in a circle and asked me what I affirm God causes.

        I encourage you to process my messages with deductive logic and quit asking questions that you have the answer to. Do you think man's sin is a thing? If so, why are you asking me when I have already answered? Does my statement not seem to apply to all things, when it says "all things"?

        Also Tom, why haven't you answered my question? Earlier, were you affirming Hard Determinism or giving me a Red Herring? I want to know if you were being fallacious or expressing an affirmation of Hard Determinism.

        Tom replies

        Nothing we were discussing
        I disagree. We were discussing the topic of presumptions and what they prove. I made the presumption, you claimed it proved nothing, and I refuted your claim.

        Tom replies

        If you want to be understood respond to the questions
        What questions?

        Thus far we

        I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

        but you object to the idea God determined all things
        This is a lie. I have not objected to the idea that God determined all things. Where did you see this?

        Tom replies

        everyone agrees God is in control

        That never was the issue.
        Great. Man's will is driven by God's power and is continually under God's control.

        Free will is incompatible with scripture. To say man's will is driven by God's power but free from His control is heresy. If man's will isn't free from God's control then it isn't free from Gods control to choose, and it is not free will relative to God.

        Do you not agree with this?

        Tom replies

        It was an analogy and The principle is the same
        I affirm that it's a flawed analogy and the principle is not the same.

        Tom replies

        The auto manufacturer was differentiated from someone driving the car
        You are helping to prove that the analogy is flawed. However, it doesn't matter, because I have shown in my last message that your analogy was a Strawman Fallacy anyway. As in, your argument had a premise that says I am blaming God, but I have demonstrated that I am not blaming God.

        Tom replies

        So you state God is the cause of all things

        but not the blame ?

        Is that right ?
        Tom, please take me at my word. Yes, that is right.

        Consider my first message to you in this thread:

        "Causation does not equal accountability by necessity. Although God is the ultimate cause of everything, He is not held responsible for anything. There is nothing higher than God to hold Him accountable or responsible."

        Also review the definition of Blame:
        "assign responsibility for a fault or wrong."

        I have stated God does no wrong. He has no faults. He cannot be blamed. This should be enough clear information for you to figure it out.

        Also, please answer my question:

        'Did you already make this law for Him?'

        Tom replies

        I have to assume you are still talking about foreknowledge

        That has already been addressed

        Foreknowledge is not causation
        I was not talking about foreknowledge there. I was talking about your automobile analogy.

        Tom replies

        No you have not

        You assumed foreknow and cause amount to the same thingc
        You misunderstood. How did you get lost there? I am sticking to our game of chess, and you are off playing checkers.

        Where did I speak about a correlation between foreknowledge and causation? How did you conclude that I assumed foreknowledge equals causation? I simply anticipated the flaws in your interpretation.

        I have demonstrated how you are arguing against God's foreknowledge and intelligence. Please further address my demonstration.

        You are on record arguing against God's intelligence. Your interpretation of Jeremiah 7:31 denies that He has the capability of infinite hypothetical thought.

        Why haven't you addressed my demonstration of this?

        Tom replies

        And how did he get them to accomplish is decree
        This 'question' doesn't make much sense to me.

        Define "is decree" or "His decree"

        Then answer all of my questions so that I will answer yours without hesitation.

        God's moral commands are not the same as His decrees.

        Tom replies
        You are not a Calvinist
        You are not reformed
        You say you want to be understood

        but it seems you go out of your way to not be understood
        "It seems" the opposite is true.

        I answer questions truthfully so that I might be understood.

        Comment


        • #64
          [QUOTE=Calvert;n5916173]
          Tom, you have ignored many of my questions. This shows that you are not here to talk to me, but for another reason. I presume you want to defend your theology. If we talk, I would appreciate if you answer my questions, at least when I bring them up for a second time.

          Let's continue our conversation:

          Tom replies

          Actually it looks like you are playing stealth Christian and won't say what you are


          Originally posted by TomL View Post
          Tom replies

          You were asked below
          Provide scripture which states God is the cause of all of man's sin

          We know Gen 1:1 does not say that though you affirmed




          Who is we? Not I.

          Tom replies

          Then you are the only one


          Tom replies

          You have already stated God caused all things

          Show where Gen 1:1 makes God the cause of man's sin



          Gen 1:1
          In the beginning God created
          the heaven and the earth.

          The bolded text is the highlighted area which teaches that our Creator is the cause of all things.

          Tom replies

          No that just shows he created everything



          [QUOTE=Calvert;n5916173]
          I presume your belief of free will or some other unscriptural assumption is what apparently blinds you from seeing this. My bolded text is an attempt to show you, but I doubt it will do much for you.


          The bible states his creation was good



          Correct.


          You are on record stating

          I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

          So you affirm God is the cause of man's sin ?

          If you believe that say so


          [QUOTE=Calvert;n5916173]
          Tom, please take me at my word. You are clearly aware that I affirm: "God is the cause of everything" Yet you just went in a circle and asked me what I affirm God causes.

          Tom replies

          Maybe I just want to see you post

          God is the cause of man's sin

          as stated

          If you believe that say so


          I encourage you to process my messages with deductive logic and quit asking questions that you have the answer to. Do you think man's sin is a thing? If so, why are you asking me when I have already answered? Does my statement not seem to apply to all things, when it says "all things"?

          Also Tom, why haven't you answered my question? Earlier, were you affirming Hard Determinism or giving me a Red Herring? I want to know if you were being fallacious or expressing an affirmation of Hard Determinism.

          Tom replies

          No I do not affirm hard determinism

          I do associate a statement that God is the cause of man's sin with hard determinism



          Tom replies

          If you want to be understood respond to the questions



          What questions?

          Tom replies

          Like what theological framework you are coming from

          You say not Calvinist

          Not reformed

          Arminian ?

          Traditionalist ?

          Molinist ?

          Semi Augustine

          Amyraldean

          you name it

          I don't want to be pulling teeth






          Thus far we

          I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

          but you object to the idea God determined all things



          This is a lie. I have not objected to the idea that God determined all things. Where did you see this?

          Tom replies

          Your words

          Causation was our subject, not determinism. Review your demand:

          So God determines all things Including mans sin

          but you are not calvinist or reformed and won't say what you are

          But seeing as you affirm god determines all things that makes you a theistic determinist

          as is Calvinist , reformed theology


          Tom replies

          everyone agrees God is in control

          That never was the issue.



          Great. Man's will is driven by God's power and is continually under God's control.

          Tom replies

          no that is not what I stated

          I believe God is in control but not controlling

          You appear to affirm meticulous determination



          Free will is incompatible with scripture. To say man's will is driven by God's power but free from His control is heresy. If man's will isn't free from God's control then it isn't free from Gods control to choose, and it is not free will relative to God.

          Do you not agree with this?

          Tom replies

          No I do not agree with that

          and those were your words not mine

          Every one who believes in free will believes it is not absolute

          and that God is sovereign that he does intervene at time to accomplish his will

          but that he does not meticulously control every though action and deed




          Tom replies

          It was an analogy and The principle is the same



          I affirm that it's a flawed analogy and the principle is not the same.

          Tom replies

          And I disagree with your affirmation

          If you say God is the cause of man's sin solely because of creation then it is quite analogous to blame the auto manufacturer for someone misused of a car to kill

          but it does not appear you limited God involvement tocration alone

          for you affirmed determinism


          Tom replies

          The auto manufacturer was differentiated from someone driving the car



          You are helping to prove that the analogy is flawed. However, it doesn't matter, because I have shown in my last message that your analogy was a Strawman Fallacy anyway. As in, your argument had a premise that says I am blaming God, but I have demonstrated that I am not blaming God.

          Tom replies

          No I am showing you posted a spurious objection


          Tom replies

          So you state God is the cause of all things

          but not the blame ?

          Is that right ?



          Tom, please take me at my word. Yes, that is right.

          Tom continues

          So god causes all things

          God determines all things

          but God is not the blame for the evil things he caused or determined

          Calvert states


          "Causation does not equal accountability by necessity. Although God is the ultimate cause of everything, He is not held responsible for anything. There is nothing higher than God to hold Him accountable or responsible."

          Also review the definition of
          Blame:
          "assign responsibility for a fault or wrong."

          I have stated God does no wrong. He has no faults. He cannot be blamed. This should be enough clear information for you to figure it out.

          Also, please answer my question:

          'Did you already make this law for Him?'

          Tom replies

          If God did it God is responsible yes ?

          and if the actions you state God causes were caused by a lower being they would be blame worthy right ?






          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Tom, you have ignored many of my questions. This shows that you are not here to talk to me, but for another reason. I presume you want to defend your theology. If we talk, I would appreciate if you answer my questions, at least when I bring them up for a second time.
            Let's continue our conversation:

            Tom replies

            Actually it looks like you are playing stealth Christian and won't say what you are




            Originally posted by TomL View Post
            Tom replies

            You were asked below
            Provide scripture which states God is the cause of all of man's sin

            We know Gen 1:1 does not say that though you affirmed


            Who is we? Not I.

            Tom replies

            Then you are the only one




            Tom replies

            You have already stated God caused all things

            Show where Gen 1:1 makes God the cause of man's sin

            Gen 1:1


            In the beginning God created
            the heaven and the earth.
            The bolded text is the highlighted area which teaches that our Creator is the cause of all things.

            Tom replies

            No that just shows he created everything




            I presume your belief of free will or some other unscriptural assumption is what apparently blinds you from seeing this. My bolded text is an attempt to show you, but I doubt it will do much for you.




            The bible states his creation was good
            Correct.




            You are on record stating

            I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

            So you affirm God is the cause of man's sin ?

            If you believe that say so


            Tom, please take me at my word. You are clearly aware that I affirm: "God is the cause of everything" Yet you just went in a circle and asked me what I affirm God causes.

            Tom replies

            Maybe I just want to see you post

            God is the cause of man's sin

            as stated
            If you believe that say so


            I encourage you to process my messages with deductive logic and quit asking questions that you have the answer to. Do you think man's sin is a thing? If so, why are you asking me when I have already answered? Does my statement not seem to apply to all things, when it says "all things"?
            Also Tom, why haven't you answered my question? Earlier, were you affirming Hard Determinism or giving me a Red Herring? I want to know if you were being fallacious or expressing an affirmation of Hard Determinism.

            Tom replies

            No I do not affirm hard determinism

            I do associate a statement that God is the cause of man's sin with hard determinism





            Tom replies

            If you want to be understood respond to the questions

            What questions?

            Tom replies

            Like what theological framework you are coming from

            You say not Calvinist

            Not reformed

            Arminian ?

            Traditionalist ?

            Molinist ?

            Semi Augustine

            Amyraldean

            you name it

            I don't want to be pulling teeth








            Thus far we

            I affirm that Genesis 1:1 is clearly sufficient for teaching that God is the cause of everything that has and will ever come to pass.

            but you object to the idea God determined all things

            This is a lie. I have not objected to the idea that God determined all things. Where did you see this?



            Tom replies

            Your words
            Causation was our subject, not determinism. Review your demand:



            So God determines all things Including mans sin

            but you are not calvinist or reformed and won't say what you are

            But seeing as you affirm god determines all things that makes you a theistic determinist

            as is Calvinist , reformed theology


            Tom replies

            everyone agrees God is in control

            That never was the issue.

            Great. Man's will is driven by God's power and is continually under God's control.



            Tom replies

            no that is not what I stated

            I believe God is in control but not controlling

            You appear to affirm meticulous determination

            Free will is incompatible with scripture. To say man's will is driven by God's power but free from His control is heresy. If man's will isn't free from God's control then it isn't free from Gods control to choose, and it is not free will relative to God.
            Do you not agree with this?



            Tom replies

            No I do not agree with that

            and those were your words not mine

            Every one who believes in free will believes it is not absolute

            and that God is sovereign that he does intervene at time to accomplish his will

            but that he does not meticulously control every though action and deed




            Tom replies

            It was an analogy and The principle is the same

            I affirm that it's a flawed analogy and the principle is not the same.

            Tom replies

            And I disagree with your affirmation

            If you say God is the cause of man's sin solely because of creation then it is quite analogous to blame the auto manufacturer for someone misused of a car to kill



            but it does not appear you limited God involvement tocration alone

            for you affirmed determinism


            Tom replies

            The auto manufacturer was differentiated from someone driving the car

            You are helping to prove that the analogy is flawed. However, it doesn't matter, because I have shown in my last message that your analogy was a Strawman Fallacy anyway. As in, your argument had a premise that says I am blaming God, but I have demonstrated that I am not blaming God.

            Tom replies

            No I am showing you posted a spurious objection




            Tom replies

            So you state God is the cause of all things

            but not the blame ?

            Is that right ?

            Tom, please take me at my word. Yes, that is right.



            Tom continues

            So god causes all things

            God determines all things

            but God is not the blame for the evil things he caused or determined

            Calvert states
            "Causation does not equal accountability by necessity. Although God is the ultimate cause of everything, He is not held responsible for anything. There is nothing higher than God to hold Him accountable or responsible."
            Also review the definition of

            Blame:
            "assign responsibility for a fault or wrong."
            I have stated God does no wrong. He has no faults. He cannot be blamed. This should be enough clear information for you to figure it out.
            Also, please answer my question:
            'Did you already make this law for Him?'

            Tom replies

            If God did it God is responsible yes ?

            and if the actions you state God causes were caused by a lower being they would be blame worthy right ?







            Ten screens-full of response, completely unformatted, impossible to follow.
            Is anyone even bothering to READ this anymore?
            "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
            --------------------------------------------------------------------------
            "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
            but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
            -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

              Ten screens-full of response, completely unformatted, impossible to follow.
              Is anyone even bothering to READ this anymore?
              You aren't missing much. It is no longer worth following, especially with the tag issues.

              Comment


              • #67
                My Words: Or do I rather just want to see that verse plus others rightly understood on what it's meaning. When Jesus said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple." So with all due respect when he says this it it your take he's REALLY telling them to HATE is father and mother? Also his wife and children? What about honor your mother and father? Eph 6:2 What about love your wife as Christ loved the church? Eph 5:25 And we can talk about the kids too but please consider you might just need reexamine your position on that matter about what hate in those verses mean.


                Originally posted by DanRansom View Post
                You may have to hate your parents to Love Christ. Your unGodly Parents could turn you in to Authories.
                Well ladies and gentlemen that's something I'd suggest you just let sink in for a moment. What has this Calvinist brother said? You may have to hate your parents! Hate your parents. What about honor your mother and father as it says in Ephesians 6:2? Sure if your parents sought to steer you away from the Christian faith you're to show more preference to God than them ....BUT TO HATE THEM?????

                What about praying for them? They could be enemies he claims? So what did Jesus say about that?

                "I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." Matt 5:44 So where exactly is the instruction to HATE them? So what do we have here folks? We see a Calvinist doing everything possible to marginalize the basic, simple truth of scripture that the word hate doesn't necessarily mean HATE but rather it means to show preference for. I leave you to judge as to whether this dear Calvinist thinking is sound. I truly hope he'd reconsider his position.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Calvert View Post

                  You aren't missing much. It is no longer worth following, especially with the tag issues.
                  I am sorry but I am having difficulties with the tags and links

                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Rockson View Post
                    My Words: Or do I rather just want to see that verse plus others rightly understood on what it's meaning. When Jesus said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple." So with all due respect when he says this it it your take he's REALLY telling them to HATE is father and mother? Also his wife and children? What about honor your mother and father? Eph 6:2 What about love your wife as Christ loved the church? Eph 5:25 And we can talk about the kids too but please consider you might just need reexamine your position on that matter about what hate in those verses mean.




                    Well ladies and gentlemen that's something I'd suggest you just let sink in for a moment. What has this Calvinist brother said? You may have to hate your parents! Hate your parents. What about honor your mother and father as it says in Ephesians 6:2? Sure if your parents sought to steer you away from the Christian faith you're to show more preference to God than them ....BUT TO HATE THEM?????

                    What about praying for them? They could be enemies he claims? So what did Jesus say about that?

                    "I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." Matt 5:44 So where exactly is the instruction to HATE them? So what do we have here folks? We see a Calvinist doing everything possible to marginalize the basic, simple truth of scripture that the word hate doesn't necessarily mean HATE but rather it means to show preference for. I leave you to judge as to whether this dear Calvinist thinking is sound. I truly hope he'd reconsider his position.
                    Of course if someone but something else before God first then it is Idolatry which God hates. That is all Jesus is stating!

                    If one is following Jesus one is following God! If not then it is idolatry.

                    God bless you,

                    SeventhDay

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Rockson View Post
                      My Words: Or do I rather just want to see that verse plus others rightly understood on what it's meaning. When Jesus said “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple." So with all due respect when he says this it it your take he's REALLY telling them to HATE is father and mother? Also his wife and children? What about honor your mother and father? Eph 6:2 What about love your wife as Christ loved the church? Eph 5:25 And we can talk about the kids too but please consider you might just need reexamine your position on that matter about what hate in those verses mean.
                      Lets take a look



                      Matthew 6:24 KJV
                      No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.


                      Matthew 5:29-30 KJV
                      And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. [30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


                      Romans 7:15 KJV
                      For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

                      If anyone in your life is causing you to sin, and not follow God.

                      Well ladies and gentlemen that's something I'd suggest you just let sink in for a moment. What has this Calvinist brother said?
                      Is this why you post here? Is your hate in your posts to me very Christian.
                      Isn't that what trolls do.


                      You may have to hate your parents! Hate your parents. What about honor your mother and father as it says in Ephesians 6:2? Sure if your parents sought to steer you away from the Christian faith you're to show more preference to God than them ....BUT TO HATE THEM?????

                      What about praying for them? They could be enemies he claims? So what did Jesus say about that?

                      "I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." Matt 5:44 So where exactly is the instruction to HATE them? So what do we have here folks? We see a Calvinist doing everything possible to marginalize the basic, simple truth of scripture that the word hate doesn't necessarily mean HATE but rather it means to show preference for. I leave you to judge as to whether this dear Calvinist thinking is sound. I truly hope he'd reconsider his position.
                      Are you going to honor your parents if it sends you to hell. Or will you die for Christ.
                      Knowledge is knowing the word. Understanding is having God's word revealed to you. Wisdom is knowing how to use God's word.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        I am sorry but I am having difficulties with the tags and links
                        That's OK Tom. I quote your entire message and manually add the quote brackets for each passage of text. It can be exhausting.

                        I might still respond to your entire message above if you ask. But one of the main points of our discussion is my affirmation of God being the Author of Sin. I have at least two questions for you.

                        1.) Where did God make a law that says He cannot be the author of sin?

                        - Are you trying to hold Him to your own laws? That is, did you make your own law that says God wouldn't be holy and just if He decreed the fall? Also, would you not praise God if you believed He decreed the fall?

                        2.) Where does scripture teach that causation equals accountability by necessity?

                        - Where does God hold Himself to this law?

                        If these propositions are not taught in Scripture, then they should be discarded as mere assumptions by anyone who wishes to grow in their faith. Without these propositions, there should be no problem with God being the author of sin. Note that scripture teaches that God works all evil for the greater good.

                        Do not think that this is all that can be said about this. I am merely covering what I find is a critical area of our discussion. Your response would be appreciated.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Calvert View Post

                          That's OK Tom. I quote your entire message and manually add the quote brackets for each passage of text. It can be exhausting.

                          I might still respond to your entire message above if you ask. But one of the main points of our discussion is my affirmation of God being the Author of Sin. I have at least two questions for you.

                          1.) Where did God make a law that says He cannot be the author of sin?

                          - Are you trying to hold Him to your own laws? That is, did you make your own law that says God wouldn't be holy and just if He decreed the fall? Also, would you not praise God if you believed He decreed the fall?

                          2.) Where does scripture teach that causation equals accountability by necessity?

                          - Where does God hold Himself to this law?

                          If these propositions are not taught in Scripture, then they should be discarded as mere assumptions by anyone who wishes to grow in their faith. Without these propositions, there should be no problem with God being the author of sin. Note that scripture teaches that God works all evil for the greater good.

                          Do not think that this is all that can be said about this. I am merely covering what I find is a critical area of our discussion. Your response would be appreciated.
                          Tom replies

                          So you do believe God is the author of all of mans sin ?

                          My own laws no.

                          I speak according to standards he himself established

                          your second question I already responded to by asking

                          If those action were done by a lesser being would you not find them blame worthy

                          Everyone knows God is accountable to no one and that was not what I meant

                          The idea of violating his own standards and nature is what I object to (not that I believe he does but the affirmations of some do make him out to do that)i

                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            Tom replies

                            So you do believe God is the author of all of mans sin ?

                            My own laws no.

                            I speak according to standards he himself established

                            your second question I already responded to by asking

                            If those action were done by a lesser being would you not find them blame worthy

                            Everyone knows God is accountable to no one and that was not what I meant

                            The idea of violating his own standards and nature is what I object to (not that I believe he does but the affirmations of some do make him out to do that)i
                            God may not be accountable but God is faithful is a fact.

                            Now, God made us with the nature that we have and works with us according to the nature that we have and God is creating us in his image. All man can do about that is to harmonize with God's will when God makes that possible.

                            God wrote the book from start to finish and we do what we are designed to do!

                            There you go!

                            God bless you,

                            SeventhDay

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by SeventhDay View Post

                              God may not be accountable but God is faithful is a fact.

                              Now, God made us with the nature that we have and works with us according to the nature that we have and God is creating us in his image. All man can do about that is to harmonize with God's will when God makes that possible.

                              God wrote the book from start to finish and we do what we are designed to do!

                              There you go!

                              God bless you,

                              SeventhDay
                              Tom replies

                              Faithful and just to do what ?

                              to be the author of sin ?

                              to violate his own standards and nature ?

                              What ?
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Tom replies

                                Faithful and just to do what ?

                                to be the author of sin ?

                                to violate his own standards and nature ?

                                What ?
                                God is faithful and just to his purposes, promises and his word and his nature.

                                Sin is the missing of the mark and man can only miss the mark if he was made to!

                                Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
                                Got it?

                                God is making us in his image not man!
                                Gen 1:27 And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.
                                Got it?

                                God bless you,

                                SeventhDay

                                Comment

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