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Questioning Libertarian Freewillism!

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  • Questioning Libertarian Freewillism!

    Below is a quote from someone on this forum so that you can be clear about what was “said” and not just “assumed”.

    Libertarian free will holds that man is able to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

    So what I state is consistent with libertarian free will and traditionalism
    First we must set the stage in understanding the difference between the two. Consider the scenario of the fork-in-the-road...

    Those who advocate for libertarian Freewillism (and traditionalism) say that given all the causes and influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice to turn left or right is not determined. The man is free to choose against all influences and causes such that there is no determining or governing reason for his particular choice.

    This is in opposition to...

    Those who advocate compatibilist freedom say that given all the causes and influences on the man’s will, including his own character, personality, and preferences, the man’s choice of whether to turn left or right is absolutely determined. The man’s “self” necessarily determines a particular choice.He necessarily chooses in accordance with his greatest desire, and the desire itself is causally determined.

    Now that we can see the difference we can ask the questions...



    As you can see in the quote below, also from this forum, some say that God has freewill and sense we are created in God’s image they conclude we have this same freewill!

    I've long argued that if God has freewill, His creation, in His image, also must have freewill.
    So...

    Does God have libertarian freedom? If God has liberterian freedom, then God has the freedom to sin by choosing against His own nature and character. If God has libertarian freedom, then there is no determining or governing reason that God is righteous and never sinful. We might expect that at any moment, without any determining reason, God may sin.

    Of course Scripture teaches God does not have libertarian freedom, but that He has a kind of compatibilist freedom. God necessarily chooses in accordance with His own nature and character. Scripture says that God “cannot deny himself” (2 Tim 2:13), and “it is impossible for God to lie” (Heb 6:18). God’s choices are determined by God’s holy nature, and that determination of God’s will is compatible with God’s freedom.

    Does the human nature of Jesus have libertarian freedom? Colossians 1:15 says that “He is the image of the invisible God” and Hebrews 1:3 says He is “the exact imprint of his nature.” Since Jesus is the image of God, then we should look to Jesus for what true freedom means. Did/does Jesus have libertarian freedom to sin? Might the human nature of Christ freely stop praying for us from heaven? Could Jesus freely reverse any of His good promises to us? Could Christ stop trusting the Father? Might Jesus have freely sinned on earth, failing to fulfill biblical prophecy?

    Scripture is clear that God determined the righteous actions of Christ’s human nature. Psalm 22:9-10 says that God caused Jesus to trust Him: “Yet you are he who took me from the womb; you made me trust you at my mother’s breasts. On you was I cast from my birth and from my mother’s womb, you have been my God.” Other passages of Scripture declare that Christ would certainly obey God’s will unto death (Is 50:4-6; 52:13-53:12). The obedience of Christ’s human nature was determined, and it was compatible with His freedom and responsibility. This is what it means to be made in the image of God.



    Could a libertarianly free will ever make a choice? If there is no sufficient or determining reason for a choice, then how could a person’s will ever choose? It would seem that if libertarian freedom were true, the man at the fork-in-the-road would never actually turn left or right. He would simply stand there neutral, since there is never any sufficient reason or cause to choose to turn either left or right. If there is no sufficient cause, then how can there be an effect?

    Can libertarian freedom really be called “free?” It seems to me that libertarian freedom enslaves people to their wills, which often choose against their characters and natures. A person may have an inclination to choose what is good, but his contra-causal free will sometimes arbitrarily changes his desires and causes him to choose the bad. This doesn’t seem like freedom, but slavery to a kind of will that chooses without any determining reason.

    Can a person with libertarian freedom really be held “responsible” for his choices? If libertarian freedom is true, then it would seem that people could never be held responsible for their choices. When they meet God on judgment day, they may object, “But God, I may have wanted to choose Christ, but this libertarian free will that you gave me chose against me. It changed my wants without any sufficient or determining reason and caused me to choose to reject Christ. I am not guilty or responsible.”


    These questions have been slightly altered to fit this forum. If you would like to read the full article in its unaltered state...

    Click Here
    2 Timothy 2:24-26

  • #2
    Originally posted by TomL
    But libertarian free will does not hold there are no sufficient reasons or desires that prompt a decision

    It just rejects the idea that man's will is at all times externally causally determined
    Then what causes the decision?

    Originally posted by TomL
    second he states

    A person may have an inclination to choose what is good, but his contra-causal free will sometimes arbitrarily changes his desires and causes him to choose the bad[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

    Libertarian free will or contra causal free will does not posit a will that arbitrarily changes the mans desire

    What contra causal free will does is allow man to chose between available options
    “Allow” only states that options are avaliable! What causes the final decision among the “available options” in L.F.-ism?

    Originally posted by TomL
    third he states

    When they meet God on judgment day, they may object, “But God, I may have wanted to choose Christ, but this libertarian free will that you gave me chose against me. It changed my wants without any sufficient or determining reason and caused me to choose to reject Christ. I am not guilty or responsible.

    Once again the writer assumes some imaginary force which just changes what the person want to do


    “Imaginary force”... is that the cause of Libertarian Freewillism? If not then please clear up for us what this “imaginary force” is that actually causes the final decision! You know... that way we don’t have to “imagine”!

    Originally posted by TomL
    That is total nonsense and the writers claim bears no relation to what is claimed or believed
    Please clear it up for us... what is the actual cause, in Libertarian Freewillism and Traditionalism?

    Originally posted by TomL
    Once again libertarian free will is the ability to chose between options without being externally determined
    Originally posted by TomL
    What do you mean by ability? Is this the “imaginary force” you referenced above?What is this “imaginary force” you speak of? You say it’s not external... so is it internal?

    What is it that causes?
    2 Timothy 2:24-26

    Comment


    • #3

      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      But libertarian free will does not hold there are no sufficient reasons or desires that prompt a decision

      It just rejects the idea that man's will is at all times externally causally determined


      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
      Then what causes the decision?
      Tom replies

      The chooser’s choice among available options
      The chooser makes a self-caused choice





      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      second he states

      A person may have an inclination to choose what is good, but his contra-causal free will sometimes arbitrarily changes his desires and causes him to choose the bad[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

      Libertarian free will or contra causal free will does not posit a will that arbitrarily changes the man’s desire

      What contra causal free will does is allow man to choose between available options


      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
      “Allow” only states that options are avaliable! What causes the final decision among the “available options” in L.F.-ism?
      Tom replies

      The chooser is cause of the choice
      Libertarian free will is a will that is self-determined


      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      third he states
      When they meet God on judgment day, they may object, “But God, I may have wanted to choose Christ, but this libertarian free will that you gave me chose against me. It changed my wants without any sufficient or determining reason and caused me to choose to reject Christ. I am not guilty or responsible.

      Once again the writer assumes some imaginary force which just changes what the person want to do

      There is nothing that comes and chooses against you. You the chooser make your own choice


      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
      “Imaginary force”... is that the cause of Libertarian Freewillism? If not then please clear up for us what this “imaginary force” is that actually causes the final decision! You know... that way we don’t have to “imagine”!
      Tom replies

      That is the impression your non knowledgeable source created

      It is the writer not the doctrine that spoke of something coming along and changing what you willed. It was his imaginary force

      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      That is total nonsense and the writers claim bears no relation to what is claimed or believed
      Please clear it up for us... what is the actual cause, in Libertarian Freewillism and Traditionalism? [/QUOTE]

      Originally posted by TomL View Post
      Once again libertarian free will is the ability to choose between options without being externally determined
      The chooser is the cause of the choice in libertarian free will


      Originally posted by TomL View Post

      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
      What do you mean by ability? Is this the “imaginary force” you referenced above?What is this “imaginary force” you speak of? You say it’s not external... so is it internal?

      What is it that causes?
      Tom replies

      Once again the writer of the article makes it seem like some imaginary source comes along and changes what we willed
      That is not part of the doctrine

      Ability the power that God gives man to make a decision




      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • #4
        TomL quote

        Libertarian free will holds that man is able to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

        So what I state is consistent with libertarian free will and traditionalism
        This quote above is your quote from this forum but it is a direct quote from Mr. Flowers so would you also agree with Mr. Flowers when he rewrites the description of Libertarian Freewillism above to read...

        Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice to turn left or right is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or against any or all influences such that there is no determining factor for his particular choice outside the own function of his will, which is mysterious and beyond full comprehension.
        The system itself creates an “imaginary force”, called a mystery, not the original writer!

        The doctrine itself excludes everything outside of self as a cause!
        It doesn’t stop there it even excludes everything inside of self (character, personality, and preferences) as a cause!
        And it doesn’t stop there the mechanism of the will is called a mystery!

        This excludes everything outside of the will! EVERYTHING! The “will alone” excludes the very things that make self... “SELF”!

        “Will alone” is not “self”! “Self” also includes the character, personality, preferences, and desires outside of the “will”!

        Therefore when you say “will alone” you are speaking of a “will” that mysteriously determines at the exclusion of everything outside of the “will”! This excludes all the things that make “self”...self!

        Originally posted by TomL View Post
        Tom replies

        Libertarian free will is a will that is self-determined
        “a will that is self-determined” is a will that excludes parts of self!

        It seems to me that libertarian freedom enslaves people to their wills, which may or may not choose against their character, personality, preferences, desires, and natures. A person may have an inclination to choose what is good, but the mysterious will may or may not arbitrarily choose against his desires and causes him to choose the bad. This doesn’t seem like freedom, but slavery to a kind of will that chooses without any determining reason... oh except for mystery!

        Sounds like “imaginary force” to me!
        2 Timothy 2:24-26

        Comment


        • #5
          • TomL quote

            Libertarian free will holds that man is able to refrain or not refrain in a given moral situation

            So what I state is consistent with libertarian free will and traditionalism


            Originally posted by Sketo View Post

            This quote above is your quote from this forum but it is a direct quote from Mr. Flowers
            Tom replies

            That quote I stand on



            Originally posted by Sketo View Post
            so would you also agree with Mr. Flowers when he rewrites the description of Libertarian Freewillism above to read...



            Proponents of libertarian freedom say that given all the influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice to turn left or right is determined by his will alone. The will is free to choose for or against any or all influences such that there is no determining factor for his particular choice outside the own function of his will, which is mysterious and beyond full comprehension.
            Tom replies

            Because I agree with one quote does not mean I would agree with another quote
            or that I would explain it in the manner that was chosen

            I would have to first consider the comment and interpret its meaning

            but lets see what your objection is




            Originally posted by Sketo View Post

            The system itself creates an “imaginary force”, called a mystery, not the original writer!
            Tom replies

            False the mystery is how the will works. Not many people deny man has a will

            The writer on the other hand mentioned something called free will coming along and changing what you had wanted

            That was absurd. In his writing he has a man's free will working in contradiction to what the man wanted. In other words he has a force called free will opposing the man's will

            In the belief system what the man wants is a product of his free will not a force opposing what the man wanted. Free will is not a force to be differentiated from the man will. Rather it simply notes that the will is free from being externally determined

            Lets first clear this up before going further

          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Sketo View Post
            Those who advocate for libertarian Freewillism (and traditionalism) say that given all the causes and influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice to turn left or right is not determined. The man is free to choose against all influences and causes such that there is no determining or governing reason for his particular choice.

            This is in opposition to...

            Those who advocate compatibilist freedom say that given all the causes and influences on the man’s will, including his own character, personality, and preferences, the man’s choice of whether to turn left or right is absolutely determined. The man’s “self” necessarily determines a particular choice.He necessarily chooses in accordance with his greatest desire, and the desire itself is causally determined.
            Man always chooses what he perceives to be in his best interests .. and sometimes that is why he chooses to do good .. or desire to be saved.

            Take a look at Adam, Gen 3:22. If his is the fallen state of us all, then notice that God said that Adam might choose to eat from the tree of life if We don't kick him out of the Garden. If Adam had got to the tree before God booted him out of the Garden, he would have had eternal life.

            Well, it's the same with us. If we get to that "tree" before we die, we, too, can have eternal life!

            There's no difference between fallen Adam and fallen us. It was in Adam's fallen nature to get to the tree .. and it is ours also! This "libertarian freedom" is a non sequitur! There is no reason to even be debating it!

            skypair

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Sketo View Post
              Below is a quote from someone on this forum so that you can be clear about what was “said” and not just “assumed”.



              First we must set the stage in understanding the difference between the two. Consider the scenario of the fork-in-the-road...

              Those who advocate for libertarian Freewillism (and traditionalism) say that given all the causes and influences involved, including the man’s own character, personality, and preferences, his choice to turn left or right is not determined. The man is free to choose against all influences and causes such that there is no determining or governing reason for his particular choice.
              If you're quoting TomL, this week he has said he does not believe in Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; which is what you describe when you say "The man is free to choose against all influences and causes such that there is no determining or governing reason for his particular choice". I usually don't argue with someone who has a view of Free Will which is lower than %100 Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; unless after they deny CCLFW, they still argue as if it were true...
              New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

              I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                Tom replies

                the mystery is how the will works. Not many people deny man has a will
                If it’s a mystery then how do you know that the man’s own desire, character, personality, and preferences is not more than just an influence?

                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                The writer on the other hand mentioned something called free will coming along and changing what you had wanted
                The problem your system creates is within man! L.F. says that will has the freedom to oppose everything else inside of man! That is what your system states!

                This creates a will that sits back considering all other parts of man and may mysteriously arbitrarily choose against those other parts of man that are deemed [b]mere influences!

                So yes the writer rightly concludes that L.F. states that everything in man can be for a particular response and the “mysterious will” can come in and say “otherwise”!

                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                In his writing he has a man's free will working in contradiction to what the man wanted.
                The system states that the will is free from [b]all influences[b]... this includes mans “preferences”, and “desires” such that it can choose otherwise!

                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                In other words he has a force called free will opposing the man's will
                As absurd as it sounds this is how Libertarian Freewill describes the “will”!

                You could rewrite it to say “In other words he has a force called free will opposing the man's preferences and desires”

                Your system describes a “Will” that opposes everything else that makes up man... unless all the other parts of man just happen to be in align with “Will” in the first place!

                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                In the belief system what the man wants is a product of his free will not a force opposing what the man wanted.
                Yes the man may have “desired”, “preferred”, “wanted” option A but the “mysterious will” is free to oppose those “desires”, “preferences”, and “wants” and produce the “want” for option B now!

                I know how ridiculous L.F. sounds when you think about it!

                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                it simply notes that the will is free from being externally determined
                “the will is free from being externally determined”

                What is considered external to the “will”???

                The system, that you support, says that nature, desire, preference, character are all external!

                It also claims that it’s a “mystery” as to how the “will” chooses one option over the other!


                Originally posted by TomL View Post
                Free will is not a force to be differentiated from the man will.
                Then stop supporting a system that advocates this very idea!
                2 Timothy 2:24-26

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bruisermiller View Post

                  If you're quoting TomL, this week he has said he does not believe in Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; which is what you describe when you say "The man is free to choose against all influences and causes such that there is no determining or governing reason for his particular choice". I usually don't argue with someone who has a view of Free Will which is lower than %100 Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will; unless after they deny CCLFW, they still argue as if it were true...
                  I posted that last one before reading this. Thank you for the clarification although I’m not sure how to differentiate the two. I’m not sure how to extract the “contra causal” part from the “libertarian” part!
                  2 Timothy 2:24-26

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sketo View Post

                    I posted that last one before reading this. Thank you for the clarification although I’m not sure how to differentiate the two. I’m not sure how to extract the “contra causal” part from the “libertarian” part!
                    I'm not sure if TomL knows either. I told him that if you're a family man you don't have Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will because you want to sleep late but your kids won't let you. After that, he said our Will's are not %100 Free. Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will is %100 Free Will. But after he admits this, and still argues as if we have %100 Free Will; then it's time to start debating with him all over...
                    New-Protestant Reformation ~ Dec 2009 - ____

                    I'm a Christian. An Evangelical, Reformed, Independent Fundamental Baptist; a New Calvinist...

                    Comment


                    • #11


                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      Tom replies

                      the mystery is how the will works. Not many people deny man has a will

                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post



                      If it’s a mystery then how do you know that the man’s own desire, character, personality, and preferences is not more than just an influence?
                      Tom replies

                      Quite simply men do act at times outside of their normal character or normal desires or personality

                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      The writer on the other hand mentioned something called free will coming along and changing what you had wanted


                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post

                      The problem your system creates is within man! L.F. says that will has the freedom to oppose everything else inside of man! That is what your system states!
                      Tom replies

                      But free will is not something external to man It is not something which opposes man's will. It is man's will

                      To suggest as the writer did that free will came along and opposed the will of a man to believe was just nonsense




                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      This creates a will that sits back considering all other parts of man and may mysteriously arbitrarily choose against those other parts of man that are deemed [b]mere influences!
                      Tom replies

                      This is another misrepresentation No one stated it was arbitrary The mystery was we don't know how it works


                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      So yes the writer rightly concludes that L.F. states that everything in man can be for a particular response and the “mysterious will” can come in and say “otherwise”!
                      Tom replies

                      No that is simply false

                      No one who believes in free will states that everything in man can be for a particular response and free will comes along and changes what he wanted

                      Rather free will weights those desires within man and come to a choise

                      If the option ultimately taken was not one of those desires in man the option would not be taken

                      Your argument is absurd



                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      In his writing he has a man's free will working in contradiction to what the man wanted.




                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      The system states that the will is free from [b]all influences[b]... this includes mans “preferences”, and “desires” such that it can choose otherwise!

                      Tom replies

                      Free means he is not determined by a particular desire but can make a choise between a number of desires

                      To suggest that all your desires point one way but then free will comes along and an unwanted option is performed

                      is complete absurd and nonsense

                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      In other words he has a force called free will opposing the man's will


                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      As absurd as it sounds this is how Libertarian Freewill describes the “will”!

                      You could rewrite it to say “In other words he has a force called free will opposing the man's preferences and desires”

                      Your system describes a “Will” that opposes everything else that makes up man... unless all the other parts of man just happen to be in align with “Will” in the first place!
                      Tom replies

                      Only if you wish to misrepresent what is believed

                      No it does not oppose everything else that makes up man. It would be one of those desires already within the man that would be ultimately chosen

                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      In the belief system what the man wants is a product of his free will not a force opposing what the man wanted.

                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post

                      Yes the man may have “desired”, “preferred”, “wanted” option A but the “mysterious will” is free to oppose those “desires”, “preferences”, and “wants” and produce the “want” for option B now!


                      Tom replies

                      Sorry but that is completely false. Option B would be another desire competing against desire A

                      It is not one will opposing another will



                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post

                      I know how ridiculous L.F. sounds when you think about it!
                      Tom replies

                      The only thing ridiculous is the way the writer distorts what is believed

                      And I guess you also now


                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      it simply notes that the will is free from being externally determined

                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                      “the will is free from being externally determined”

                      What is considered external to the “will”???
                      Tom replies

                      External to the man
                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post


                      The system, that you support, says that nature, desire, preference, character are all external!

                      It also claims that it’s a “mystery” as to how the “will” chooses one option over the other!

                      Tom replies

                      No it does not hold your nature and character are external to you . That is just absurd

                      Seriously where do you come up with such ridiculous claims


                      Originally posted by TomL View Post
                      Free will is not a force to be differentiated from the man's will.

                      Originally posted by Sketo View Post

                      Then stop supporting a system that advocates this very idea!
                      Tom notes

                      As already stated it does not. Try to accurately portray what is believed



                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sketo View Post
                        Does God have libertarian freedom? If God has liberterian freedom, then God has the freedom to sin by choosing against His own nature and character. If God has libertarian freedom, then there is no determining or governing reason that God is righteous and never sinful. We might expect that at any moment, without any determining reason, God may sin.
                        Libertarian Freedom does not mean that God or anyone goes against his own nature. God's nature is that He cannot sin. So He won't. But it does not limit the number of other options that God can freely make. But our nature includes that we can freely sin, among other options.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TomL View Post

                          Originally posted by TomL View Post
                          Tom replies

                          the mystery is how the will works. Not many people deny man has a will



                          Tom replies

                          Quite simply men do act at times outside of their normal character or normal desires or personality



                          But free will is not something external to man It is not something which opposes man's will. It is man's will

                          Paul explains this very well in Romans 7. He refers to himself as a "wretched man" and says the things he "wills to do" he does not do. In other words he sins against his will in the present tense.

                          He says his spirit fights against his flesh. Therefore he doe not have 2 wills, he has a "regenerate" will which fights against his flesh. This doesn't describe a will which chooses to sin, in fact it describes a will which desires to do good, but he can not do it because he is still "in the flesh."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nebekednezzar View Post

                            Paul explains this very well in Romans 7. He refers to himself as a "wretched man" and says the things he "wills to do" he does not do. In other words he sins against his will in the present tense.

                            He says his spirit fights against his flesh. Therefore he doe not have 2 wills, he has a "regenerate" will which fights against his flesh. This doesn't describe a will which chooses to sin, in fact it describes a will which desires to do good, but he can not do it because he is still "in the flesh."
                            Tom replies

                            I am unsure as to what your point is here

                            Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TomL View Post

                              Tom replies

                              I am unsure as to what your point is here
                              It's correct that men do act outside of their normal character, desires and personality, in fact they (we) sin regularly. You're correct about that.

                              But this does not mean we "willed" it. In other words it doesn't mean we can "will" to choose good or evil, it means a regenerate person's will fights with their flesh. A libertarian free will claims to be able to choose good or evil, which is a completely different "will" than Paul describes in Romans 7.

                              Comment

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