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Was the fall necessary

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  • Originally posted by TomL View Post

    Nothing is stated concerning the world being created for a salvation purpose

    You are just reading that into scripture

    Rather we read God's creation was very good

    Genesis 1:31 (KJV)
    31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
    Again, you are clueless to the fact that this World was Created to save sinners from their sins. It was Created by Jesus Christ and for Jesus Christ Col 1:16

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    When it says all things were created for Him, who is that speaking of ?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

      Again, you are clueless to the fact that this World was Created to save sinners from their sins. It was Created by Jesus Christ and for Jesus Christ Col 1:16

      16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

      When it says all things were created for Him, who is that speaking of ?
      How did you address


      Genesis 1:31 (KJV)
      31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold,
      it was
      very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

      that's right you did not

      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

        How did you address


        Genesis 1:31 (KJV)
        31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold,
        it was
        very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

        that's right you did not
        Everything was made very Good for Christ Salvation Purpose for Himself! Col 1:16

        Comment


        • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

          Everything was made very Good for Christ Salvation Purpose for Himself! Col 1:16
          Sorry but if the world was made needing redemption it was not very good

          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Sorry but if the world was made needing redemption it was not very good
            Do Calvinist think this way? For me this is a new doctrine, that the world had to be created flawed so that Jesus, who was already coming as a Savior, would have something to die for.
            by faith we understand...
            Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Simpletruther View Post
              A mathematical theorem exists that says whatever can happen, Given enough time, will happen.

              This not only can be shown mathematically, it seems intuitive logically.

              The non calvinists say that Adam’s sin was not necessary. That he could have done otherwise .

              Assuming this non calvinist view is true, logic tells us that the fall was still necessary and basically determined to happen any way(eventually) .
              Adam was compelled to sin (eventually) by his nature of being able to. It was absolutely baked into the cake from the beginning, mathematically and logically.

              So this idea fails to really resolve a big difficulty that some non calvinists have (that God determines evil) with Calvinism Because this still ends up being the case simply by the nature of how he created Adam, capable of sin.

              THoughts?
              No, the fall was not necessary. Man did choose to fall. God, the Holy Trinity, created man so that they may share themselves with us and put us on a path of Theosis which requires freewill to be like Him by grace (energies/light/power, etc of God). God put a before man, a simple fast, the first fast and the first step towards Theosis. Along came the serpent who deceived Adam, convinced Adam to follows the serpents path to the goal of theosis. It was a lie, the lie of all lies, that leads to death and non-being, and nothing like the Holy Trinity. In a moment, instead of being under the headship of God, man choose to follow the Serpent, and sin and death took over the whole of creation. Christ Jesus came to undo what Adam did, He played the serpents game, in which the Serpent took a virgin, a tree and death to destroy us, and He took it upon Himself to come from a virgin, to hang from a tree and to enter death and to defeat death by death. Of course, all of this could of been avoided.
              In accordance with the Apostolic faith delivered to us by tradition from the Fathers, I have delivered the tradition, without inventing anything extraneous to it. What I have learned, that I inscribed, comfortably with the Holy Scriptures

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Iakobos View Post

                No, the fall was not necessary. Man did choose to fall. God, the Holy Trinity, created man so that they may share themselves with us and put us on a path of Theosis which requires freewill to be like Him by grace (energies/light/power, etc of God). God put a before man, a simple fast, the first fast and the first step towards Theosis. Along came the serpent who deceived Adam, convinced Adam to follows the serpents path to the goal of theosis. It was a lie, the lie of all lies, that leads to death and non-being, and nothing like the Holy Trinity. In a moment, instead of being under the headship of God, man choose to follow the Serpent, and sin and death took over the whole of creation. Christ Jesus came to undo what Adam did, He played the serpents game, in which the Serpent took a virgin, a tree and death to destroy us, and He took it upon Himself to come from a virgin, to hang from a tree and to enter death and to defeat death by death. Of course, all of this could of been avoided.
                Sounds like my cosmic chance.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by SethProton View Post
                  Do Calvinist think this way? For me this is a new doctrine, that the world had to be created flawed so that Jesus, who was already coming as a Savior, would have something to die for.
                  That idea I believe is an oddity rather than a regular feature of Calvinism.

                  It probably is more at home with hyper Calvinist supralapsarianism which makes the fall a necessity

                  1) Supra-lapsarianism: The damnation of the [alleged] “non-elect” is according to the secret purpose of God, without regard to their sin. Creation, the Fall, and sin must all be the manifestation of the secret counsel of God, having created the [alleged] “non-elect” by necessity. This is also known as Double Predestination or Unconditional Reprobation. Its logical order is:

                  1. Election and Reprobation

                  2. Creation

                  3. Fall


                  Last edited by TomL; 09-10-19, 07:18 PM.
                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                    That idea I believe is an oddity rather than a regular feature of Calvinism.

                    It probably is more at home with hyper Calvinist supralapsarianism which makes the fall a necessity

                    1) Supra-lapsarianism: The damnation of the [alleged] “non-elect” is according to the secret purpose of God, without regard to their sin. Creation, the Fall, and sin must all be the manifestation of the secret counsel of God, having created the [alleged] “non-elect” by necessity. This is also known as Double Predestination or Unconditional Reprobation. Its logical order is:

                    1. Election and Reprobation

                    2. Creation

                    3. Fall

                    Thanks
                    by faith we understand...
                    Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                      Thanks
                      You are welcome

                      In the supralapsarian view God determined to reprobate some save some and the fall becomes the means he
                      accomplishes that/

                      It is a horrible theology which makes God a curse on most of his creation
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        Sorry but if the world was made needing redemption it was not very good
                        Thats your statement not based on scripture. Who made the world for their own purpose ? Col 1:16

                        16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                        Jn 1:1-3


                        In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

                        2 The same was in the beginning with God.

                        3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                          Thats your statement not based on scripture. Who made the world for their own purpose ? Col 1:16

                          16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                          Jn 1:1-3


                          In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

                          2 The same was in the beginning with God.

                          3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
                          Sorry you just ignore scripture which states the creation was very good.

                          Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

                          31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was
                          very good.

                          Jn 1:1-3 has little to do with this
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            Sorry you just ignore scripture which states the creation was very good.

                            Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

                            31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was
                            very good.

                            Jn 1:1-3 has little to do with this
                            False statement and misrepresentation. The world was very good for Christs Saving Purpose for thats why He created it for Himself Col 1:16

                            Col 1:16

                            16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                            According to Jn 1:1-3 all things were made through Him and for His Sake. Of course you wouldn't understand that !

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

                              False statement and misrepresentation. The world was very good for Christs Saving Purpose for thats why He created it for Himself Col 1:16

                              Col 1:16

                              16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

                              According to Jn 1:1-3 all things were made through Him and for His Sake. Of course you wouldn't understand that !
                              Sorry you add to scripture

                              The words for Christ's saving purpose was not found in the verse

                              Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

                              31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold,
                              it was
                              very good.
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Sorry you add to scripture

                                The words for Christ's saving purpose was not found in the verse

                                Genesis 1:31 (KJV)

                                31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold,
                                it was
                                very good.
                                Who Created the World ? Was it Jesus Christ ? Do you believe Jesus Christ is God ?

                                Comment

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