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How does God foreknow our choices after salvation?

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  • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

    Yes he was a sinner at creation, he sinned to prove it. Where did i read it ? It was demonstrated in Gen 3
    Your use of words may be the issue bewteen us.
    If I say a man was a govenor because the following year he was elected, for me that statement is inaccurate,
    or to say a man is a painter before he paints anything.
    A sinner means one who has sinned, yet you call Adam a sinner before he sins

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

      this conversation baffles me a bit, but I assume it shows what I call a stronghold: the inability to see something clearly because of being held captive by some overriding doctrine.For you and me and others, delegated authotity is a simple real life event. For them it is an impossibility
      Seth who had the authority to make the decision to write your post?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

        Your use of words may be the issue bewteen us.
        If I say a man was a govenor because the following year he was elected, for me that statement is inaccurate,
        or to say a man is a painter before he paints anything.
        A sinner means one who has sinned, yet you call Adam a sinner before he sins
        A sinner is also one who will sin because its their nature to.

        Its like a newborn sinner baby. Its a sinner before it sins.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Nebekednezzar View Post

          Seth who had the authority to make the decision to write your post?
          I did.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post

            A sinner is also one who will sin because its their nature to.

            Its like a newborn sinner baby. Its a sinner before it sins.
            Then your use of language is different than mine.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
              No it doesnt. It proved he was in the flesh, a natural man. Let me ask you this Was Adam a natural man or spiritual man ?
              Adam was a natural man of flesh and blood. I have posted this numerous times.

              The problem with your position is still that of context.

              The pre-disobedient natural man Adam was good.

              The post-disobedient natural man Adam was not-good.

              The line of demarcation is his act of disobedience. The man was good before he disobeyed God. The man was not-good after he disobeyed God. The flesh and blood with God created Adam was good in Genesis 1:31 but at Genesis 3:7 that same good flesh and blood became not-good - because Adam disobeyed God and brounght sin and death into the world. At Genesis 1:31 the natural man was good. At Genesis 3:7 that natural man was not good. All of nature was good prior to Genesis 3:7. God plainly and explicitly stated all that His hands had made was good. Romans 5:12 tells us that it was Genesis 3:7 - Adam's act of disobedience - that brought sin into the world and with it came death. What had previously been good became not-good. God called Adam good but Jesus tells us no man is good. Is Jesus mistaken? Is Jesus lying? Has Jesus never read Genesis 1:31? No! No! No! Adam was good but after is act of disobedience no man is good.

              When the NT writers write of the "natural man" and of the "flesh," They are writing as post-fall writers to a post-fall audience about post-fall condition. It is completely inappropriate to apply post-fall conditions to the world prior to Adam's fall.

              I didn't include a single fraction of a sliver of a hint of eisegesis. Just plainly written scripture plainly read as stated with the few inferences being the consequence of logical necessity, not more inference.

              You, however, post individual verses that don't actually state what you say they say and when challenged about that failure the response is "That's what it stands for!" No, what it states is what it stands for. If something written isn't to be taken as written there will be other verses supporting the interpretation.... but when asked for other verses supporting the interpretation of what the first verse supposedly means when it is made to say something it doesn't anywhere state the response if one verse is enough! and then another verse is posted with even more eisegetic interpretation. And then another. And another....

              Not a single fraction of a sliver of a hint of exegesis. Just plainly written scripture eisegetically read with piles of ideologically driven inferences being the consequence of eisegetic inference.


              For example:

              Acts 2:23 is quoted. In the KJV it reads, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"

              Now what that actually states is, Jesus was delievered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God AND he was crucified by wicked hands.

              What that verse does not state is "God controlled the minds and wills of those who crucified Jesus to make the crucify him."

              And as Post #51 clearly, undeniably irrefutably shows, what the verse was made to say was,
              Originally posted by beloved57 in Post #51
              Gods Eternal Purpose is the cause they acted that way, and they couldnt have acted otherwise. Yes God determined they act that way, thats consistent with His determinate counsel. Acts 2:23

              23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

              All the choices and decisions made in the minds of men that led to and culminated in the death of Christ were determined by God. Thats a fact
              The verse was made to say, "Yes God determined they act that way, thats consistent with His determinate counsel. All the choices and decisions made in the minds of men that led to and culminated in the death of Christ were determined by God. That's a fact," when that is observably not what the verse actually states.

              The verse does not state, "God determined all the choices, decisions, and minds of the men who crucified Jesus."

              It is simply not there.

              Neither is that consistent with the WCF which explicitly states God's ordaining does no violence to human will. So the interpretation of Acts 2:23 isn't Calvinist!




              God determined Jesus would be crucified without offering violence to human will AND the very real choices made by those who crucified Jesus all conspired to see that what God had previously determined would come to pass. That is Calvinism.


              And no matter how many times the dissent is repeated there is no proof to the contrary. Just a pile of eisegetically interpreted verses that in the endmake this entire conversation a matter of God controlling your mind to write what you write and God controlling my mind to write what I write. Yes, God determined we act that way, that's consistent with his determinate counsel. All the choices beloved57 and Josheb made in their individual minds were determined by God.





              Now I have a question for you: When WCF states what God ordained at eternity offers no violence to the creature's will, what do think that means?
              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                Now I have a question for you: When WCF states what God ordained at eternity offers no violence to the creature's will, what do think that means?
                I will be surprised if you get an answer, but it seems starnge to me to read the word "will" here. Maybe you can as briefly as possible define the difference between "will" and "free will" as it applies to Biblical thought, citing any specific scriptures you might know on the topic.

                Comment


                • josheb

                  Adam was a natural man of flesh and blood. I have posted this numerous times.
                  Bingo, then he was a sinner in need of redemption and being made Spiritual. He wasnt fit for the heavenly kingdom of God as a natural man 1 Cor 15:50
                  50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                  This kingdom was prepared before Adam was Created Matt 25:33


                  33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

                  Comment


                  • josheb

                    The verse was made to say, "Yes God determined they act that way, thats consistent with His determinate counsel. All the choices and decisions made in the minds of men that led to and culminated in the death of Christ were determined by God. That's a fact," when that is observably not what the verse actually states.

                    The verse does not state, "God determined all the choices, decisions, and minds of the men who crucified Jesus."

                    It is simply not there.

                    Neither is that consistent with the WCF which explicitly states God's ordaining does no violence to human will. So the interpretation of Acts 2:23 isn't Calvinist!
                    Im not interested in the wcf, thats merely traditions of men. Yes all the choices and decisions made in the minds of men were determined by God, the verses Illustrate that point and it states they did what Gods counsel determined they do Acts 4:27,28


                    27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

                    28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

                    Verse 27 says they were gathered together, They were passive in this. Passive means:


                    The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action.

                    They were acting and deciding and doing in accordance with Gods active will. They werent forced, they just did what God had already determined they do.


                    When Pilate gave the people a choice on who to relase according to jewish custom, the people chose to let Barabbas go instead of Jesus Matt 27:16-21

                    The choice and decisions they made was already determined by God that Christ was to be crucified at a specific time in history and so their choice conformed to what God had determined.

                    Lk 22:22


                    And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

                    So Im not advocating any violence to mans will, dont have to, mans will is under Gods active control and only serves His Purpose. Even when men believe they are only doing their will, they are doing Gods will

                    Paul writes that God works all things according to the counsel of His will Eph 1:11

                    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

                    All things includes mens minds and wills !


                    Comment


                    • josheb

                      The pre-disobedient natural man Adam was good.

                      The post-disobedient natural man Adam was not-good.
                      Thats false. The Natural man is a sinner either way. Naturally pre fall Adam was a carnal man not subject to Gods Law neither could be. They which are in the flesh Cant please God Rom 8:7-8 and Adam proved that. Do you believe that Adam and Eve pre fall Loved God with all their heart like here Matt 22:36-38

                      6 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

                      37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

                      38 This is the first and great commandment.

                      Answer that with a simple yes or no

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                        josheb



                        Bingo, then he was a sinner in need of redemption and being made Spiritual. He wasnt fit for the heavenly kingdom of God as a natural man 1 Cor 15:50
                        50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                        This kingdom was prepared before Adam was Created Matt 25:33


                        33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
                        You evidence what we commonly see here, the calvinist denial of God's foreknowledge.
                        In this case, God foreknew who would be His and prepared for them. This verse does not mean they were His from the foundation, only that He knew would be His.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SethProton View Post

                          You evidence what we commonly see here, the calvinist denial of God's foreknowledge.
                          In this case, God foreknew who would be His and prepared for them. This verse does not mean they were His from the foundation, only that He knew would be His.
                          False accusation, where have I denied Gods foreknowldge ?

                          I dont think you understand the point Im making. Adam was a natural man a sinner at his Creation, he wasnt fit for Gods Eternal Kingdom. As a Natural man he was merely flesh and blood which is excluded from Gods eternal kingdom 1 Cor 15:50

                          50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                          Adam at his best at creation before the fall wasnt fit for Gods eternal presence, sorry to dash your fantasy !

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                            Thats false. The Natural man is a sinner either way.
                            You have yet to prove that claim.
                            Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                            Naturally pre fall Adam was a carnal man not subject to Gods Law neither could be.
                            Not only is that incorrect, bit you have yet to prove that claim.

                            Adam was under the law; the law of the first two commands: 1) Be fruitful, multiply, subdue and rule, and 2) Don't eat... All that is posted about God's law applies to those two commands.

                            Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                            They which are in the flesh Cant please God Rom 8:7-8 and Adam proved that. Do you believe that Adam and Eve pre fall Loved God with all their heart like here Matt 22:36-38

                            36Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

                            37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

                            38 This is the first and great commandment.

                            Answer that with a simple yes or no
                            Yes, loving God in entirety is the greatest command, and it is a command that applies both pre-fal and post-fall.

                            But both Jesus' and Paul's words are post-fall scripture spoken/written in a post-fall world to post-fall people about post-fall conditions. You are still ignoring and neglecting the contexts.

                            Furthermore, the word "carnal" in the KJV is simply and solely the Greek word "sarx." Look it up. The word "sarx" means "flesh." Look it up. When anyone says, "The flesh was carnal" what they are saying is "The flesh was flesh." It is a meaningless redundancy. This is another reason why the KJV is not a helpful translation in this topic. The KJV was treating "sarkos" and "sarkinos" connotatively, and any reader properly understanding the context of the post-fall world, post-fall writer, and post-fall original readership understands these things. So writing as if these aren't the facts of scripture will never prove any case scripturally or logically. This is now the third or fourth time the KJV has failed you, the third or fourth time you've demonstrably failed to examine the verse exegetically when it comes to word usage. This is now the third or fourth time I've been given an undeniable and irrefutable opportunity to show the eisegesis.


                            The post hoc ergo proctor hoc argument is fallacious.

                            You've got a plan for redemption where God has to make sinful people so the plan can have a reason to exist.

                            Adam's mind of flesh was good. If all pre-disobedient Adam had was his good mind of flesh and he was made sinful and could not be other than sinful then even obedience would be sinful.

                            And now there's a contradiction within the argument. It cannot be stated Adam was not subject to God's Law and then reported he is supposed to live up to the greatest commandment.


                            So you keep explaining your position, beloved57 because now the errors in logic, not just the errors in eisegesis, are coming out. I don't know where you got this idea Adam was made already-sinful but you should have been as critical of it as you are of the dissent.
                            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                              Bingo, then he was a sinner in need of redemption and being made Spiritual.
                              No, he was originally a god man in need of resurrection, and became a sinner in need of redemption.


                              Adam was once king over creation, not the serpent.



                              Until you come to terms with Genesis 1:31 and the changes that occurred consequent to Genesis 3:7 (and Romans 5:12) you'll have a huge gaping error in your argument. Adam was good, unashamed, and sinless at Genesis 1:31. At Genesis 3:7 he became not-good, ashamed, and sinful.
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                                Adam was under the law; the law of the first two commands: 1) Be fruitful, multiply, subdue and rule, and 2) Don't eat... All that is posted about God's law applies to those two commands.
                                Adam was under more than this.....

                                Where there is no law, sin is not imputed. Adam died. The LAW, that was from the beginning condemned Adam to death. Which is why he died.

                                Comment

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