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Draw, what does it mean in where it appears?

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  • Draw, what does it mean in where it appears?

    Many of the Calvinists on this board have been instructed about this activity of the "Father." to the Son. They know already that this is in a Jewish context. Jesus Christ is not sent to the world at his first coming and in his incarnation. That is easily seen by the geography of the gospels and the places where Jesus ministered.He said he was not sent but to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel. Now, that is what he said whether any of you will believe it or not. He said that to a gentile woman seeker in Matt 15. Read it. He also said in John 1 that he came unto his own and his own received him not. His own is Israel and Paul lamented later in Romans 10 that Israel was not saved because of this rejection and because they attempted to become righteous by keeping the law of Moses after Jesus had died, rose again, and sent his Spirit to give life and righteousness to those who would believe in him.

    The gentiles did not enter into the equation until Acts 10, which was 10 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. None of them could have been born again because the Spirit had not been given to them before the Cornelius affair, when it is said in Acts 14 that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles. This is just a bible fact. God had prepared a special apostle just to the gentiles, Paul, and had commissioned him as the apostle to the gentiles, and here in his own words he tells us what his duties toward us are. Read it.



    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (of Israel)

    9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

    10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.His people are the Jews.

    11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.(the people = Jews)

    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.






    Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

    19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

    21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

    23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

    24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

    29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

    The key to John 6 is that God sent Christ Jesus to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Those who were drawn were the Israelites to whom he was sent. God drew them through his word, the kingdom miracles, the testimony of John the Baptist, and a voice from heaven.None of these things ever drew a gentile because they did not generally know the OT or much at all about God. They certainly never had any promises of salvation or covenants they could call God to account on. It was just pure grace that he included us with his people and because he had promised Abraham that he would bless the whole world though his offspring.

    Now, Paul, after what he said in Rom 15 and that I quoted, never one time used the word "draw" in all his 13 letters to gentiles. God is not drawing gentiles, then or now. That is just a fact. He is inviting gentiles to partake of his salvation through Christ by faith and it is to whosoever of you gentiles will come.

    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    It is a "whosoever will" invitation and you Calvinists are being deceived by your teachers.
    I once asked this of a Calvinist evangelist;
    Is it possible for an elect person ever to die lost and is it possible for a non elect person ever to be saved and he answered "no" to both questions.

  • #2
    Originally posted by JDS View Post
    Many of the Calvinists on this board have been instructed about this activity of the "Father." to the Son. They know already that this is in a Jewish context. Jesus Christ is not sent to the world at his first coming and in his incarnation. That is easily seen by the geography of the gospels and the places where Jesus ministered.He said he was not sent but to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel. Now, that is what he said whether any of you will believe it or not. He said that to a gentile woman seeker in Matt 15. Read it. He also said in John 1 that he came unto his own and his own received him not. His own is Israel and Paul lamented later in Romans 10 that Israel was not saved because of this rejection and because they attempted to become righteous by keeping the law of Moses after Jesus had died, rose again, and sent his Spirit to give life and righteousness to those who would believe in him.

    The gentiles did not enter into the equation until Acts 10, which was 10 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. None of them could have been born again because the Spirit had not been given to them before the Cornelius affair, when it is said in Acts 14 that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles. This is just a bible fact. God had prepared a special apostle just to the gentiles, Paul, and had commissioned him as the apostle to the gentiles, and here in his own words he tells us what his duties toward us are. Read it.



    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (of Israel)

    9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

    10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.His people are the Jews.

    11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.(the people = Jews)

    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

    14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.






    Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

    19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

    20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

    21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

    23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

    24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

    28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

    29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

    The key to John 6 is that God sent Christ Jesus to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Those who were drawn were the Israelites to whom he was sent. God drew them through his word, the kingdom miracles, the testimony of John the Baptist, and a voice from heaven.None of these things ever drew a gentile because they did not generally know the OT or much at all about God. They certainly never had any promises of salvation or covenants they could call God to account on. It was just pure grace that he included us with his people and because he had promised Abraham that he would bless the whole world though his offspring.

    Now, Paul, after what he said in Rom 15 and that I quoted, never one time used the word "draw" in all his 13 letters to gentiles. God is not drawing gentiles, then or now. That is just a fact. He is inviting gentiles to partake of his salvation through Christ by faith and it is to whosoever of you gentiles will come.

    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    It is a "whosoever will" invitation and you Calvinists are being deceived by your teachers.
    Are you saying Calvinist aren't saved?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

      Are you saying Calvinist aren't saved?
      SIMPLE!!! SOME "Calvinists" are Born Again Christians, and SOME "Calvinists" are nothing but "Calvinists".

      "Calvinism", after all, isn't the "Word of God". It's nothing more than just another flawed "Systematic Theology".

      "Theology" saves NOBODY
      Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 08-15-19, 02:50 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

        SIMPLE!!! SOME "Calvinists" are Born Again Christians, and SOME "Calvinists" are nothing but "Calvinists".

        "Calvinism", after all, isn't the "Word of God". It's nothing more than just another flawed "Systematic Theology".

        "Theology" saves NOBODY
        I was asking because some posters here say if you're a Calvinist you arn't saved.

        I don't disagree. Even some Arminians are saved. I use to have Arminean beliefs. like you...unto I learned the "T". Then I learned about the ULIP.

        Evangelist: If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, stand up, come up front. Don't worry what the person next to you thinks!

        Event Director: Nobody's coming forward.

        Evangelist: Play some soft music to tug at their hearts....that always works.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

          I was asking because some posters here say if you're a Calvinist you arn't saved.

          I don't disagree. Even some Arminians are saved. I use to have Arminean beliefs. like you...unto I learned the "T". Then I learned about the ULIP.

          Evangelist: If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, stand up, come up front. Don't worry what the person next to you thinks!

          Event Director: Nobody's coming forward.

          Evangelist: Play some soft music to tug at their hearts....that always works.
          But then, in "alter calls", the Holy Spirit's power to CONVICT OF SIN, and of JUDGEMENT comes into play, and the person so convicted CAN AND DOES surrender, and find REAL Repentance, which leads to being Born Again right then and there. The "Sinner's prayer" either means NOTHING, or it can be the REAL start of a new life in Christ.

          It could be that 100 people go forward, and I wouldn't be AT ALL surprised if 95 of 'em go home with NOTHING, but 5 are "cut to the heart" (as the bible puts it) and really do become Christians.

          God's sense of humor being what it is, The fellow (Pete) that led me to salvation had NEVER cracked a bible in his life, but he had JUST been led the night before into Salvation by the neighbor across the hall in our apartment building.

          I, on the other hand was completely familiar with the bible (Learned to read in the KJV when I was 6 or so with Mom's help), and could EASILY have cut him to ribbons intellectually - But With the Holy Spirit's conviction of SIN all over me, I could only listen, and I KNEW that I HAD TO HAVE WHAT HE HAD, or it was over for me. And God accepted my repentance, sent the FAITH, and everything changed completely, and I was new and clean. That was 1963 in my bedroom in Houston.

          Since Pete had been led to salvation by a Baptist Seminarian, he took me to his church, and I was Baptized the following Sunday at Greenwood Baptist in Pasadena, TX. Naturally, my life after that was "Baptist flavored" ("Arminian" to a 5-pointer) even after I jumped to the Assemblies of God in '64, where I've been for most of the last 55 years with a side trip into the Charismatic outpouring during the '70s that effectively "Un-Denominalized" me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

            Are you saying Calvinist aren't saved?
            The criteria for bible salvation is believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is defined as "good news" or "glad tidings. The comprehensive message concerning his person and works is often summarized as "the faith."

            Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

            Now, there are things that would not be considered part of the death,burial, and resurrection, but they are things that are essential to believe. Things such as the divinity of Christ, that he is the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh. That he is sinless, pure, and is the only way to God. One must believe in his humanity, that he is every bit man and that he identifies with us in our weakness. One must believe in the goodness, the kindness, and the patience of God, that he is a just God and that he is faithful and that he cannot lie.These are a few examples of the faith. There are more.

            Therefore, I conclude that no one can be saved by believing Calvinism. That is not to say that no Calvinists are saved. Those who are saved did not get saved by believing the doctrines of Calvinism. They got saved by believing the truth and then, because of deception and ignorance or ____________ fill in the blank, was convinced of the Calvinistic system. The large number of people who have converted to Calvinism does not prove that Calvinism is true but it does show the effectiveness of teaching a systemized theology. The Mormons does it, the Russellites does it, and a host of other cults does it. Once the system is established in the mind no light can enter in. This certainly is not to say systemized theology is always wrong but it must be the right system that accepts words for what they say and does not twist passages to conform to the system.

            Calvinism does not teach "the faith." Those who are saved and are trapped by this system needs to come out of it. They will lose any rewards they might have and are in disobedience to God on several commands he has given his children.

            You sir, have not addressed any of my pertinent points I made in my op. You are more interested in what I think of Calvinists than you are in understanding the scriptures I gave. Does anything I said in the op make any sense to you?

            I once asked this of a Calvinist evangelist;
            Is it possible for an elect person ever to die lost and is it possible for a non elect person ever to be saved and he answered "no" to both questions.

            Comment


            • #7
              jds

              Many of the Calvinists on this board have been instructed about this activity of the "Father." to the Son. They know already that this is in a Jewish context. Jesus Christ is not sent to the world at his first coming and in his incarnation.
              Oh yeah, what about Jn 3:17

              For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by JDS View Post
                Therefore, I conclude that no one can be saved by believing Calvinism.
                You seem confused.
                No Calvinist believes we are "saved by believing Calvinism".
                We are saved by the atoning blood of Christ.
                "We are not to understand the other side; we are to discuss to expound the truth." -- A misguided apologist
                --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                "The Law is a storm which wrecks your hopes of self-salvation,
                but washes you upon the Rock of Ages."
                -- Charles Haddon Spurgeon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by JDS View Post

                  The criteria for bible salvation is believing the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is defined as "good news" or "glad tidings. The comprehensive message concerning his person and works is often summarized as "the faith."

                  Titus 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

                  Now, there are things that would not be considered part of the death,burial, and resurrection, but they are things that are essential to believe. Things such as the divinity of Christ, that he is the Son of God, God manifest in the flesh. That he is sinless, pure, and is the only way to God. One must believe in his humanity, that he is every bit man and that he identifies with us in our weakness. One must believe in the goodness, the kindness, and the patience of God, that he is a just God and that he is faithful and that he cannot lie.These are a few examples of the faith. There are more.

                  Therefore, I conclude that no one can be saved by believing Calvinism. That is not to say that no Calvinists are saved. Those who are saved did not get saved by believing the doctrines of Calvinism. They got saved by believing the truth and then, because of deception and ignorance or ____________ fill in the blank, was convinced of the Calvinistic system. The large number of people who have converted to Calvinism does not prove that Calvinism is true but it does show the effectiveness of teaching a systemized theology. The Mormons does it, the Russellites does it, and a host of other cults does it. Once the system is established in the mind no light can enter in. This certainly is not to say systemized theology is always wrong but it must be the right system that accepts words for what they say and does not twist passages to conform to the system.

                  Calvinism does not teach "the faith." Those who are saved and are trapped by this system needs to come out of it. They will lose any rewards they might have and are in disobedience to God on several commands he has given his children.

                  You sir, have not addressed any of my pertinent points I made in my op. You are more interested in what I think of Calvinists than you are in understanding the scriptures I gave. Does anything I said in the op make any sense to you?
                  Believing in Calvinism would be like me saying you believe in Arminianism. All Calvinism does is explain the theology...Calvinism saves no one.

                  Calvinism most certainly does teach the faith. Those who's theology lines up with Calvinism preach Jesus is God, born of a virgin, lived a perfect obedient life, died on the cross and rose again on day 3. Man is a sinner and needs Jesus as their savior.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JDS View Post
                    Many of the Calvinists on this board have been instructed about this activity of the "Father." to the Son. They know already that this is in a Jewish context. Jesus Christ is not sent to the world at his first coming and in his incarnation. That is easily seen by the geography of the gospels and the places where Jesus ministered.He said he was not sent but to the "lost sheep" of the house of Israel. Now, that is what he said whether any of you will believe it or not. He said that to a gentile woman seeker in Matt 15. Read it. He also said in John 1 that he came unto his own and his own received him not. His own is Israel and Paul lamented later in Romans 10 that Israel was not saved because of this rejection and because they attempted to become righteous by keeping the law of Moses after Jesus had died, rose again, and sent his Spirit to give life and righteousness to those who would believe in him.

                    The gentiles did not enter into the equation until Acts 10, which was 10 years after the resurrection of Jesus Christ. None of them could have been born again because the Spirit had not been given to them before the Cornelius affair, when it is said in Acts 14 that the door of faith was opened to the gentiles. This is just a bible fact. God had prepared a special apostle just to the gentiles, Paul, and had commissioned him as the apostle to the gentiles, and here in his own words he tells us what his duties toward us are. Read it.



                    Rom 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: (of Israel)

                    9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

                    10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.His people are the Jews.

                    11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.(the people = Jews)

                    12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

                    13 Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

                    14 And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.






                    Rom 15:15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,

                    16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

                    17 I have therefore whereof I may glory through Jesus Christ in those things which pertain to God.

                    18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed,

                    19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

                    20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

                    21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

                    22 For which cause also I have been much hindered from coming to you.

                    23 But now having no more place in these parts, and having a great desire these many years to come unto you;

                    24 Whensoever I take my journey into Spain, I will come to you: for I trust to see you in my journey, and to be brought on my way thitherward by you, if first I be somewhat filled with your company.

                    25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

                    26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

                    27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

                    28 When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit, I will come by you into Spain.

                    29 And I am sure that, when I come unto you, I shall come in the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Christ.

                    The key to John 6 is that God sent Christ Jesus to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Those who were drawn were the Israelites to whom he was sent. God drew them through his word, the kingdom miracles, the testimony of John the Baptist, and a voice from heaven.None of these things ever drew a gentile because they did not generally know the OT or much at all about God. They certainly never had any promises of salvation or covenants they could call God to account on. It was just pure grace that he included us with his people and because he had promised Abraham that he would bless the whole world though his offspring.

                    Now, Paul, after what he said in Rom 15 and that I quoted, never one time used the word "draw" in all his 13 letters to gentiles. God is not drawing gentiles, then or now. That is just a fact. He is inviting gentiles to partake of his salvation through Christ by faith and it is to whosoever of you gentiles will come.

                    Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

                    It is a "whosoever will" invitation and you Calvinists are being deceived by your teachers.
                    It is better for me to follow the way of Jesus Christ to get information directly from the Father of it all than it is to follow Paul for second hand information and his opinions that sometimes is not what Jesus taught at all. especially in the areas of sin. Paul as a sinner and Jesus who was without sin has a stark contrast.
                    The human side is to claim the promises of God. The divine side is to receive them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by GaryMac View Post

                      It is better for me to follow the way of Jesus Christ to get information directly from the Father of it all than it is to follow Paul for second hand information and his opinions that sometimes is not what Jesus taught at all. especially in the areas of sin. Paul as a sinner and Jesus who was without sin has a stark contrast.
                      Oh I see where you're coming from now. So you're one who rejects the NT that is after the gospels. Sorry my friend but you're way, way, way out of line.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The drawing of Jn 6:44 and 12:32 means Being born and led of the Spirit.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by beloved57 View Post
                          The drawing of Jn 6:44 and 12:32 means Being born and led of the Spirit.
                          according to scripture the drawing consists of

                          John 6:45 (KJV)
                          45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CrowCross View Post

                            Believing in Calvinism would be like me saying you believe in Arminianism. All Calvinism does is explain the theology...Calvinism saves no one.

                            Calvinism most certainly does teach the faith. Those who's theology lines up with Calvinism preach Jesus is God, born of a virgin, lived a perfect obedient life, died on the cross and rose again on day 3. Man is a sinner and needs Jesus as their savior.
                            This is just not true. Calvinism teaches a version of God and Jesus that is foreign to the scriptures and the applications and reasons are taught wrong. If you would have worded your description of Calvinism as follows then you would have been more correct in what you actually teach. Calvinism teaches that Jesus is God, born of a virgin, lived an obedient life, died on the cross and rose again on day 3 and even though God has given a blanket condemnation of all those born of Adam no matter their earthly status and said plainly that there is no difference in men because they are all sinners, it was never the intention of God to save any but just a few pre-selected ones and this death and resurrection was not effacacious for any but those few. Man is a sinner and needs Jesus as their savior but Jesus is not that savior unless you happen to be among the few pre-selected elect to whom God has granted the will to believe as a gift making it the Father who receives Jesus Christ for certain sinners and not the sinner himself.. He cannot and will not fill the needs of a savior for any others.

                            What you state above is only part of Calvinistic theology and does not tell the whole story of what you really believe about God and Jesus. It is deception.

                            Calvinism also ignores the context of scriptures as you have illustrated on this ver op. I gave some very clear statements of Jesus in a historical setting from the scriptures and asked for an explanation how they fit into Calvinism and you have ignored the points. Why didn't Paul the apostle to the gentiles, who explained the mercy of God to us in his thirteen letters fail to even use the word "draw" as he explained God's purpose in gentiles inclusion into God's wonderful redemption plan? Why would Paul say that Christ died for all in 2 Cor 5 and then in the same chapter define the term all as the whole world to whom he was sent as an ambassador?

                            Calvinism cannot stand in the light of scriptural truth without wresting the scriptures. That is a fact.


                            2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
                            15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


                            2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
                            19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
                            20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
                            21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.



                            I once asked this of a Calvinist evangelist;
                            Is it possible for an elect person ever to die lost and is it possible for a non elect person ever to be saved and he answered "no" to both questions.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Theo1689 View Post

                              You seem confused.
                              No Calvinist believes we are "saved by believing Calvinism".
                              We are saved by the atoning blood of Christ.
                              you are such a clever guy. You love to take people's words and feed them back with a twist.
                              It is obvious when you do it here, like you did with this poster, maybe more subtle when you do it with the Bible?
                              by faith we understand...
                              Didn't I tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?

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