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BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_

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  • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    Well I don’t think God wants me consulting men who deny the deity of his son.......seeking counsel fron the ungodly.



    I don’t believe Baptist scholars either after my findings many of them are ungodly too.

    Anyway this is just where I’m at and wanted to comment on it...you take care.
    Quote snipped.

    You get your beliefs from Calvinists, can you explain that?

    It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flatů

    Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Theo Book View Post
      STRONG'S #907 baptizw {bap-tid'-zo}
      Meaning:
      1)to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
      2)to cleanse by dipping or submerging,
      to wash, to make clean with water,
      to wash one's self, bathe
      3)to overwhelm

      5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794) Count - 40

      SPRINKLING - POURING- IMMERSION ALL IN ONE REFERENCE SHOWING USE.
      [1][epixeei (epixew) vifa3s][POURING]
      [2][bayei (baptw) vifa3s] IMMERSING]
      [3][ranei (rainw) vifa3s][SPRINKLING]
      Leviticus 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and (1)pour it into the palm of his own left hand:16 And the priest shall (2)dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall (3)sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

      (1)epixeei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]epixew = pour on [epixeei (epixew) vifa3s]

      (2)bapsei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. pass. be,bammai) dip ( beba┼ ai[mati covered with blood Re 19.13) [bayei (baptw) vifa3s]

      (3)ranei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]rainw = sprinkle (Re 19.13) [ranei (rainw) vifa3s]

      [baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s]
      Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be (4)baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
      baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s
      [4]baptistheetw = imperative aorist passive 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptizw = immerse; wash;dip;

      {907 bapti,zw baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
      Meaning: 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

      5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794)}

      Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture (4)dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

      (5)bebammenon = perf pass acc neut sing participle form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. passive bebammai) dip ( bebaaimati covered with blood Re 19.13)
      [bebammenon (baptw) vprpan-s]

      CONCLUSION: SPRINKLING AND POURING IS NOT IMMERSIOIN = BAPTISM
      What does it matter? I chose full immersion, but I'd be just as baptized being sprinkled.

      Is there nothing that Christians will not argue about?

      What kind of witness are we showing unbelieving lurkers about Christianity?
      It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flatů

      Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Beloved Daughter View Post

        What does it matter? I chose full immersion, but I'd be just as baptized being sprinkled.

        Is there nothing that Christians will not argue about?

        What kind of witness are we showing unbelieving lurkers about Christianity?
        Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
        greatdivide46
        It is honorable for a man to resolve a dispute; but any fool can get himself into a quarrel. -- (Proverbs 20:3).

        Comment


        • Greatdivide = Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...62#post5884462
          Post a Bible example of your claim......The Bible certainly defines baptism as sprinkling.

          Your Lexicon disagrees with the Bible why do you trust the Lexicon and Not the Bible ?
          No conviction,No conversion
          John 16:8
          And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

            Post a Bible example of your claim......The Bible certainly defines baptism as sprinkling.

            Your Lexicon disagrees with the Bible why do you trust the Lexicon and Not the Bible ?
            Unlike some people I actually trust both giving preeminence to the Bible. I find nowhere in Scripture where baptism is defined as sprinkling. If an author meant sprinkling he said sprinkling. If he meant baptism he said baptism, which, unlike sprinkling (or pouring), requires much water (John 3:23) and both the baptizer and the one being baptized going down into the water (Acts 8:38) and coming up out of the water (Acts 8:39).
            greatdivide46
            It is honorable for a man to resolve a dispute; but any fool can get himself into a quarrel. -- (Proverbs 20:3).

            Comment


            • Greatdivide =. I find nowhere in Scripture where baptism is defined as sprinkling.
              1 Corinthians 10:2
              2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

              The word baptism is defined as sprinkling in this verse .


              Exodus 14:22

              And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

              From clouds come rain, and from Godĺs Glory Cloud comes his special baptismal rain. Psalm 77:14-20 tells us that as Israel walked through the Red Sea dryshod, between the walls of water, it was raining on them.

              Psalm 77:14-20

              14 You are the God who does wonders; you have declared Your strength among the peoples.

              15 You have with Your arm redeemed Your people, the sons of Jacob and Joseph. Selah

              16 The waters saw You, O God; the waters saw You, they were afraid; the depths also trembled.

              17 The clouds poured out water; the skies sent out a sound; your arrows also flashed about.

              18 The voice of Your thunder was in the whirlwind; the lightnings lit up the world; the earth trembled and shook.

              19 Your way was in the sea, your path in the great waters, and Your footsteps were not known.

              20 You led Your people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

              No Dipping or momentary immersion here.......But a sprinkling .

              The Bible defines baptism in the verse as sprinkling.

              Now tell me how your lexicon defines baptism as meaning in the verse.


              No conviction,No conversion
              John 16:8
              And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

              Comment


              • Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

                Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
                Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I do believe that baptism is an act of obedience for a Christian. However most of this thread has been taken up with minutia that only serves to divide us further. Jesus Christ is our loving Savior. I personally don't think the method matters. Christians have been arguing about it for millenia.

                Romans 8:28-39

                28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

                31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He did not even spare his own Son but offered him up for us all. How will he not also with him grant us everything? 33 Who can bring an accusation against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies. 34 Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is the one who died, but even more, has been raised; he also is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us. 35 Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
                Because of you
                we are being put to death all day long;
                we are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.




                37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


                God Bless
                It is fundamentally necessary and healthy for Christians to acknowledge that God foreknows nothing uncertainly, but that He foresees, purposes, and does all things according to His own immutable, eternal and infallible will. This bombshell knocks "free-will" flatů

                Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will

                Comment


                • Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

                  Unlike some people I actually trust both giving preeminence to the Bible. I find nowhere in Scripture where baptism is defined as sprinkling. If an author meant sprinkling he said sprinkling. If he meant baptism he said baptism, which, unlike sprinkling (or pouring), requires much water (John 3:23) and both the baptizer and the one being baptized going down into the water (Acts 8:38) and coming up out of the water (Acts 8:39).
                  Greatdivide, did you miss this or are you studying it ?

                  https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566
                  No conviction,No conversion
                  John 16:8
                  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                  Comment


                  • No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.
                    greatdivide46
                    It is honorable for a man to resolve a dispute; but any fool can get himself into a quarrel. -- (Proverbs 20:3).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

                      No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.
                      The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

                      Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

                      I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?
                      No conviction,No conversion
                      John 16:8
                      And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

                        The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

                        Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

                        I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?
                        See my post #118.
                        greatdivide46
                        It is honorable for a man to resolve a dispute; but any fool can get himself into a quarrel. -- (Proverbs 20:3).

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

                          See my post #118.
                          I showed you Scripture defining scripture. Surely you can read and understand those verses ?
                          No conviction,No conversion
                          John 16:8
                          And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post

                            Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [bapt] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

                            John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

                            Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [bapt] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

                            As you can see from the above bapt is translated to "dip".
                            There is no Greek word "bapt." that is an abbreviation, used in many places in Lexicons, for several different Greek references to Baptism, when the Greek word is expressed elsewhere in the sentence.

                            How the Greek applies in the reference verses you are questioning.
                            Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [baptw] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

                            John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapwt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

                            Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [baptw] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

                            As you can see from the above baptw is translated to "dip".

                            And you may be confused over the fact that in the translations, the translators like to differentiate between the washing of sins, in baptism; and the immersing of a garment in blood, as a dipping; because to completely dip is to immerse.

                            Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
                            Now where baptizo is translated, it is translated to "wash":
                            There is no Greek word "baptizo" Do you mean to reference "baptizw" which ends in omega and has the same sound as long "O?

                            Mark 7:4 - And when they come from the market, except they wash [baptizw], they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing [baptizw] of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables

                            Luke 11:38 - And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [baptizw] before dinner.

                            Hebrews 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings [baptizw], and carnal ordinances,imposed on them until the time of reformation.

                            Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
                            In any case bapt and baptizo do not mean the same thing as you insist.
                            Once more, I will tell you, there is no GREEK word "bapt." And there is no
                            Greek word Baptizo.

                            There is Baptizw Mt 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:26
                            There is Baptw

                            Do you have any idea how many Greek word-forms reference baptism, baptize, baptized, baptizing? Do you have any idea how many of those greek word-forms are translated "wash" or "dip" in any of their forms?


                            Some of this material has been posted by me on other websites.
                            By law, I cannot plagiarize my own work. The burden of proof is on the accuser.
                            If you accuse me of plagiarism, you will face it again at the judgment

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

                              Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
                              The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

                              I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Ruk View Post

                                The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

                                I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?
                                The Bible doesn't have to describe baptism as immersion. Immersion is in the definition of the word baptism. It means immersion.

                                As for you assertion that pouring is more reasonable for handwashing, that's strictly your opinion. Maybe my practice is aberrant but I always fill the sink with water and wash my hands in standing water.

                                As for the Didache, that's a first-century document, not the Word of God. All it demonstrates is how quickly people strayed from the true meaning of baptism. As for the failure to make the case that baptism means immersion, I don't see that a case needs to be made. Baptism etymologically means immersion. There's just no getting around that fact. And whether or not baptism should be "redone" is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would never tell someone who had been sprinkled on or poured on with water that their baptism had to be redone (despite the fact that I don't believe either one of those is actually baptism).

                                I do think baptism is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's the first thing that Jesus told His disciples to do to make new disciples (Matt. 28:18-20), even before teaching them.
                                greatdivide46
                                It is honorable for a man to resolve a dispute; but any fool can get himself into a quarrel. -- (Proverbs 20:3).

                                Comment

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