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BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_

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  • Theo Book
    started a topic BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_

    BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_


    STRONG'S #907 baptizw {bap-tid'-zo}
    Meaning:
    1)to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2)to cleanse by dipping or submerging,
    to wash, to make clean with water,
    to wash one's self, bathe
    3)to overwhelm

    5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794) Count - 40

    SPRINKLING - POURING- IMMERSION ALL IN ONE REFERENCE SHOWING USE.
    [1][epixeei (epixew) vifa3s][POURING]
    [2][bayei (baptw) vifa3s] IMMERSING]
    [3][ranei (rainw) vifa3s][SPRINKLING]
    Leviticus 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and (1)pour it into the palm of his own left hand:16 And the priest shall (2)dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall (3)sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

    (1)epixeei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]epixew = pour on [epixeei (epixew) vifa3s]

    (2)bapsei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. pass. be,bammai) dip ( bebaĆ ai[mati covered with blood Re 19.13) [bayei (baptw) vifa3s]

    (3)ranei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]rainw = sprinkle (Re 19.13) [ranei (rainw) vifa3s]

    [baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s]
    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be (4)baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s
    [4]baptistheetw = imperative aorist passive 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptizw = immerse; wash;dip;

    {907 bapti,zw baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
    Meaning: 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

    5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794)}

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture (4)dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    (5)bebammenon = perf pass acc neut sing participle form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. passive bebammai) dip ( bebaaimati covered with blood Re 19.13)
    [bebammenon (baptw) vprpan-s]

    CONCLUSION: SPRINKLING AND POURING IS NOT IMMERSIOIN = BAPTISM


  • Theo Book
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruk View Post

    The Bible often provides enough context to define words.
    Correct!

    And Baptism is "Defined" by exclusion, in that we know it is NOT pouring or sprinkling, because those two are eliminated in the OP.

    The scripture reference in the OP -
    Leviticus 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and pour it into the palm of his own left hand:16 And the priest shall dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

    "Dipping" is shown to be "IMMERSION" when it is declared "THere is much water there" -

    MUCH WATER
    John 3:23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

    AND

    Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    AND
    BAPTISM IS A BURIAL, A COVERING OVER OF ONE DEAD TO SIN;
    A "TYPE" OF THE DEATH AND BURIAL OF JESUS;
    Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    That should suffice to demonstrate by exclusion, that sprinkling and pouring are eliminated. what took place is enough for demonstration as to the meaning of those three words.

    And I think it should be sufficient to identify for everyone, that baptism is in sufficient quantity of water, so that one can go down into it for proper immersion, covering over of the body inclusively.
    Last edited by Theo Book; 04-27-19, 11:30 AM.

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  • Dropkick
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigboy

    edit.
    lol
    Last edited by 4Him; 04-29-19, 04:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruk View Post

    The Bible often provides enough context to define words. For example, the lying Satanists claim "at hand", eggys, means 2000+ years but Jesus defined "at hand" with an illustration of when trees start to leaf then summer is at hand (i.e. "at hand" means "at hand", who would have guessed?).
    When determining the meaning of a phrase such as "at hand" one is interpreting, not defining.

    Originally posted by Ruk View Post
    The Bible doesn't describes baptism, but it does use the word for handwashing, which suggests pouring constitutes baptism. However, "Fundamentalists" dismiss this as just my opinion because handwashing by immersion in dirty water is what they do, just like they drink spoiled grape juice at their weddings (ignoring the many verses that define wine as alcoholic).
    I agree that the Greek word for baptism is translated "washing" on a few occasions. However, to extrapolate from that that the Greek word really means "pouring" is an opinion. Just like assuming that handwashing by immersion must take place in dirty water.

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  • Ruk
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    No, the Bible is not a dictionary or a lexicon. Therefore, it doesn't have a definition for baptism. Just because the word may be used figuratively when speaking of sprinkling or pouring does not mean that the definition of the word has changed.
    The Bible often provides enough context to define words. For example, the lying Satanists claim "at hand", eggys, means 2000+ years but Jesus defined "at hand" with an illustration of when trees start to leaf then summer is at hand (i.e. "at hand" means "at hand", who would have guessed?).

    The Bible doesn't describes baptism, but it does use the word for handwashing, which suggests pouring constitutes baptism. However, "Fundamentalists" dismiss this as just my opinion because handwashing by immersion in dirty water is what they do, just like they drink spoiled grape juice at their weddings (ignoring the many verses that define wine as alcoholic).

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    Did you ever find your definition of baptism in the Bibles definition of Baptism ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...66#post5884566
    No, the Bible is not a dictionary or a lexicon. Therefore, it doesn't have a definition for baptism. Just because the word may be used figuratively when speaking of sprinkling or pouring does not mean that the definition of the word has changed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    The Bible doesn't have to describe baptism as immersion. Immersion is in the definition of the word baptism. It means immersion.

    As for you assertion that pouring is more reasonable for handwashing, that's strictly your opinion. Maybe my practice is aberrant but I always fill the sink with water and wash my hands in standing water.

    As for the Didache, that's a first-century document, not the Word of God. All it demonstrates is how quickly people strayed from the true meaning of baptism. As for the failure to make the case that baptism means immersion, I don't see that a case needs to be made. Baptism etymologically means immersion. There's just no getting around that fact. And whether or not baptism should be "redone" is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would never tell someone who had been sprinkled on or poured on with water that their baptism had to be redone (despite the fact that I don't believe either one of those is actually baptism).

    I do think baptism is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's the first thing that Jesus told His disciples to do to make new disciples (Matt. 28:18-20), even before teaching them.
    Did you ever find your definition of baptism in the Bibles definition of Baptism ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...66#post5884566

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruk View Post

    The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

    I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?
    The Bible doesn't have to describe baptism as immersion. Immersion is in the definition of the word baptism. It means immersion.

    As for you assertion that pouring is more reasonable for handwashing, that's strictly your opinion. Maybe my practice is aberrant but I always fill the sink with water and wash my hands in standing water.

    As for the Didache, that's a first-century document, not the Word of God. All it demonstrates is how quickly people strayed from the true meaning of baptism. As for the failure to make the case that baptism means immersion, I don't see that a case needs to be made. Baptism etymologically means immersion. There's just no getting around that fact. And whether or not baptism should be "redone" is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would never tell someone who had been sprinkled on or poured on with water that their baptism had to be redone (despite the fact that I don't believe either one of those is actually baptism).

    I do think baptism is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's the first thing that Jesus told His disciples to do to make new disciples (Matt. 28:18-20), even before teaching them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruk
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
    The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

    I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo Book
    replied
    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post

    Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [bapt] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

    John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

    Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [bapt] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    As you can see from the above bapt is translated to "dip".
    There is no Greek word "bapt." that is an abbreviation, used in many places in Lexicons, for several different Greek references to Baptism, when the Greek word is expressed elsewhere in the sentence.

    How the Greek applies in the reference verses you are questioning.
    Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [baptw] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

    John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapwt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

    Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [baptw] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    As you can see from the above baptw is translated to "dip".

    And you may be confused over the fact that in the translations, the translators like to differentiate between the washing of sins, in baptism; and the immersing of a garment in blood, as a dipping; because to completely dip is to immerse.

    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
    Now where baptizo is translated, it is translated to "wash":
    There is no Greek word "baptizo" Do you mean to reference "baptizw" which ends in omega and has the same sound as long "O?

    Mark 7:4 - And when they come from the market, except they wash [baptizw], they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing [baptizw] of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables

    Luke 11:38 - And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [baptizw] before dinner.

    Hebrews 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings [baptizw], and carnal ordinances,imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
    In any case bapt and baptizo do not mean the same thing as you insist.
    Once more, I will tell you, there is no GREEK word "bapt." And there is no
    Greek word Baptizo.

    There is Baptizw Mt 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:26
    There is Baptw

    Do you have any idea how many Greek word-forms reference baptism, baptize, baptized, baptizing? Do you have any idea how many of those greek word-forms are translated "wash" or "dip" in any of their forms?


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  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    See my post #118.
    I showed you Scripture defining scripture. Surely you can read and understand those verses ?

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  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

    Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

    I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?
    See my post #118.

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  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.
    The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

    Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

    I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    Unlike some people I actually trust both giving preeminence to the Bible. I find nowhere in Scripture where baptism is defined as sprinkling. If an author meant sprinkling he said sprinkling. If he meant baptism he said baptism, which, unlike sprinkling (or pouring), requires much water (John 3:23) and both the baptizer and the one being baptized going down into the water (Acts 8:38) and coming up out of the water (Acts 8:39).
    Greatdivide, did you miss this or are you studying it ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566

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