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BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_

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  • Theo Book
    started a topic BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_

    BAPTISM_IS IT_POUR-SPRINKLE-IMMERSE_WHICH_&_WHY_


    STRONG'S #907 baptizw {bap-tid'-zo}
    Meaning:
    1)to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
    2)to cleanse by dipping or submerging,
    to wash, to make clean with water,
    to wash one's self, bathe
    3)to overwhelm

    5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794) Count - 40

    SPRINKLING - POURING- IMMERSION ALL IN ONE REFERENCE SHOWING USE.
    [1][epixeei (epixew) vifa3s][POURING]
    [2][bayei (baptw) vifa3s] IMMERSING]
    [3][ranei (rainw) vifa3s][SPRINKLING]
    Leviticus 14:15 And the priest shall take some of the log of oil, and (1)pour it into the palm of his own left hand:16 And the priest shall (2)dip his right finger in the oil that is in his left hand, and shall (3)sprinkle of the oil with his finger seven times before the LORD:

    (1)epixeei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]epixew = pour on [epixeei (epixew) vifa3s]

    (2)bapsei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. pass. be,bammai) dip ( bebaĆ ai[mati covered with blood Re 19.13) [bayei (baptw) vifa3s]

    (3)ranei = indicative future active 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]rainw = sprinkle (Re 19.13) [ranei (rainw) vifa3s]

    [baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s]
    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be (4)baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    baptistheetw (baptizw) vmap--3s
    [4]baptistheetw = imperative aorist passive 3rd person singular form of verb [UBS]baptizw = immerse; wash;dip;

    {907 bapti,zw baptizo {bap-tid'-zo}
    Meaning: 1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) 2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe 3) to overwhelm

    5682 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Imperative (See 5794)}

    Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture (4)dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    (5)bebammenon = perf pass acc neut sing participle form of verb [UBS]baptw = (pf. passive bebammai) dip ( bebaaimati covered with blood Re 19.13)
    [bebammenon (baptw) vprpan-s]

    CONCLUSION: SPRINKLING AND POURING IS NOT IMMERSIOIN = BAPTISM


  • Ruk
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post
    When determining the meaning of a phrase such as "at hand" one is interpreting, not defining.
    If you're going to respond to me, at least do me the courtesy of writing something that shows you know what I said.

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruk View Post

    The Bible often provides enough context to define words. For example, the lying Satanists claim "at hand", eggys, means 2000+ years but Jesus defined "at hand" with an illustration of when trees start to leaf then summer is at hand (i.e. "at hand" means "at hand", who would have guessed?).
    When determining the meaning of a phrase such as "at hand" one is interpreting, not defining.

    Originally posted by Ruk View Post
    The Bible doesn't describes baptism, but it does use the word for handwashing, which suggests pouring constitutes baptism. However, "Fundamentalists" dismiss this as just my opinion because handwashing by immersion in dirty water is what they do, just like they drink spoiled grape juice at their weddings (ignoring the many verses that define wine as alcoholic).
    I agree that the Greek word for baptism is translated "washing" on a few occasions. However, to extrapolate from that that the Greek word really means "pouring" is an opinion. Just like assuming that handwashing by immersion must take place in dirty water.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruk
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    No, the Bible is not a dictionary or a lexicon. Therefore, it doesn't have a definition for baptism. Just because the word may be used figuratively when speaking of sprinkling or pouring does not mean that the definition of the word has changed.
    The Bible often provides enough context to define words. For example, the lying Satanists claim "at hand", eggys, means 2000+ years but Jesus defined "at hand" with an illustration of when trees start to leaf then summer is at hand (i.e. "at hand" means "at hand", who would have guessed?).

    The Bible doesn't describes baptism, but it does use the word for handwashing, which suggests pouring constitutes baptism. However, "Fundamentalists" dismiss this as just my opinion because handwashing by immersion in dirty water is what they do, just like they drink spoiled grape juice at their weddings (ignoring the many verses that define wine as alcoholic).

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    Did you ever find your definition of baptism in the Bibles definition of Baptism ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...66#post5884566
    No, the Bible is not a dictionary or a lexicon. Therefore, it doesn't have a definition for baptism. Just because the word may be used figuratively when speaking of sprinkling or pouring does not mean that the definition of the word has changed.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    The Bible doesn't have to describe baptism as immersion. Immersion is in the definition of the word baptism. It means immersion.

    As for you assertion that pouring is more reasonable for handwashing, that's strictly your opinion. Maybe my practice is aberrant but I always fill the sink with water and wash my hands in standing water.

    As for the Didache, that's a first-century document, not the Word of God. All it demonstrates is how quickly people strayed from the true meaning of baptism. As for the failure to make the case that baptism means immersion, I don't see that a case needs to be made. Baptism etymologically means immersion. There's just no getting around that fact. And whether or not baptism should be "redone" is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would never tell someone who had been sprinkled on or poured on with water that their baptism had to be redone (despite the fact that I don't believe either one of those is actually baptism).

    I do think baptism is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's the first thing that Jesus told His disciples to do to make new disciples (Matt. 28:18-20), even before teaching them.
    Did you ever find your definition of baptism in the Bibles definition of Baptism ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...66#post5884566

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Ruk View Post

    The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

    I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?
    The Bible doesn't have to describe baptism as immersion. Immersion is in the definition of the word baptism. It means immersion.

    As for you assertion that pouring is more reasonable for handwashing, that's strictly your opinion. Maybe my practice is aberrant but I always fill the sink with water and wash my hands in standing water.

    As for the Didache, that's a first-century document, not the Word of God. All it demonstrates is how quickly people strayed from the true meaning of baptism. As for the failure to make the case that baptism means immersion, I don't see that a case needs to be made. Baptism etymologically means immersion. There's just no getting around that fact. And whether or not baptism should be "redone" is completely up to the individual. Personally, I would never tell someone who had been sprinkled on or poured on with water that their baptism had to be redone (despite the fact that I don't believe either one of those is actually baptism).

    I do think baptism is important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it's the first thing that Jesus told His disciples to do to make new disciples (Matt. 28:18-20), even before teaching them.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ruk
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
    The Bible doesn't describe baptism as immersion. The Bible uses baptism for handwashing which is for more reasonably done by pouring than by immersion. A first century church document, the Didache, describes baptism by pouring (light pouring approaches sprinkling). I've asked the self-righteous legalists in this forum to make their case that baptism means immersion, but they've spectacularly failed (let alone making the case for why non-immersion baptisms have to be redone, even if baptism does mean immersion).

    I think the other poster was questing why Christians make such a big deal about it, especially in the light of how our fighting appears to lurkers. "Fundamentalists" make it a practice of finding unbiblical things to believe and fight about. When Jesus said he came drinking, what do you think he was drinking?

    Leave a comment:


  • Theo Book
    replied
    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post

    Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [bapt] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

    John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

    Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [bapt] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    As you can see from the above bapt is translated to "dip".
    There is no Greek word "bapt." that is an abbreviation, used in many places in Lexicons, for several different Greek references to Baptism, when the Greek word is expressed elsewhere in the sentence.

    How the Greek applies in the reference verses you are questioning.
    Luke 16:24 - And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip [baptw] the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame

    John 13:26 - Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped [bapwt] it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

    Revelations 19:13 - And he was clothed with a vesture dipped [baptw] in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    As you can see from the above baptw is translated to "dip".

    And you may be confused over the fact that in the translations, the translators like to differentiate between the washing of sins, in baptism; and the immersing of a garment in blood, as a dipping; because to completely dip is to immerse.

    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
    Now where baptizo is translated, it is translated to "wash":
    There is no Greek word "baptizo" Do you mean to reference "baptizw" which ends in omega and has the same sound as long "O?

    Mark 7:4 - And when they come from the market, except they wash [baptizw], they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing [baptizw] of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables

    Luke 11:38 - And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed [baptizw] before dinner.

    Hebrews 9:10 - Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings [baptizw], and carnal ordinances,imposed on them until the time of reformation.

    Originally posted by uncleanlips View Post
    In any case bapt and baptizo do not mean the same thing as you insist.
    Once more, I will tell you, there is no GREEK word "bapt." And there is no
    Greek word Baptizo.

    There is Baptizw Mt 3:11; Luke 3:16; John 1:26
    There is Baptw

    Do you have any idea how many Greek word-forms reference baptism, baptize, baptized, baptizing? Do you have any idea how many of those greek word-forms are translated "wash" or "dip" in any of their forms?


    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    See my post #118.
    I showed you Scripture defining scripture. Surely you can read and understand those verses ?

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    Originally posted by Bigboy View Post

    The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

    Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

    I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?
    See my post #118.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.
    The scripture in Exodus and in Psalms defined what happened in 1Cor.10:2 .

    Did the scripture define Baptism as a Dipping or a momentary submersion ..............Or does scripture ( Not A Lexicon ) say they were sprinkled on by the clouds ?

    I choose to belive the Scriptures.....not a Lexicon .......how about you ?

    Leave a comment:


  • greatdivide46
    replied
    No, I didn't miss it. Since I see nothing in the passages you cited that refers to baptism as sprinkling, I didn't see any need to respond. Obviously you see something in these passages that I don't see. And there will be no convincing you that I don't see what you see. So any response I make will be futile.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bigboy
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    Unlike some people I actually trust both giving preeminence to the Bible. I find nowhere in Scripture where baptism is defined as sprinkling. If an author meant sprinkling he said sprinkling. If he meant baptism he said baptism, which, unlike sprinkling (or pouring), requires much water (John 3:23) and both the baptizer and the one being baptized going down into the water (Acts 8:38) and coming up out of the water (Acts 8:39).
    Greatdivide, did you miss this or are you studying it ?

    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/theology/general-christian-topics/baptism/5802439-baptism_is-it_pour-sprinkle-immerse_which_-_why_?p=5884566#post5884566

    Leave a comment:


  • Beloved Daughter
    replied
    Originally posted by greatdivide46 View Post

    Sprinkled = baptism only in our day. Certainly not in the first century. What it meant in the first century should be what it means to us. Unfortunately, that's not the case. I agree with you that baptism ultimately may not be that important. Still God gave us His Word for a reason and if we are unwilling to follow His Word, I'm not sure how that's going to effect us in eternity. It may be that because God is a God of grace and mercy that even if we don't follow His instructions concerning baptism, it won't really matter. Personally, though, I think I'd rather not take that chance.
    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I do believe that baptism is an act of obedience for a Christian. However most of this thread has been taken up with minutia that only serves to divide us further. Jesus Christ is our loving Savior. I personally don't think the method matters. Christians have been arguing about it for millenia.

    Romans 8:28-39

    28 We know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified.

    31 What then are we to say about these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He did not even spare his own Son but offered him up for us all. How will he not also with him grant us everything? 33 Who can bring an accusation against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies. 34 Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is the one who died, but even more, has been raised; he also is at the right hand of God and intercedes for us. 35 Who can separate us from the love of Christ? Can affliction or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:
    Because of you
    we are being put to death all day long;
    we are counted as sheep to be slaughtered.




    37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    God Bless

    Leave a comment:

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