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The TRUTH about the eschatological events...

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  • #16
    Once again, Amen, Hemi
    http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/cms/CROSSCARDS/17211-05272015-luke-1-46-47-mary-glorifies-lord-spirit-social-800x400.jpg

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    • #17
      No one has ever shown me where in the Bible a new man made temple would ever be built and actually be the Temple of God. The plain language of the scriptures pointed to Christ and His Church and Not to people who reject Him.
      2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

      How can the Anti-Christ/Beast sit in the Temple and call himself God if there IS NO TEMPLE? It is not possible so that means Israel has to REBUILD THE TEMPLE. Its called logical deduction. Daniel 9:27 says the same thing. Re. 13 says the same thing. But here its called Gods Temple. The Anti-Christ is not standing in Christ Jesus calling himself God.

      No the Temple of God IS important and there will never be another one. And no one gets a second chance., The gospel is the power of God to salvation. Those who don't believe it are lost. those who believe and obey it are saved.
      Gods Temple is in Heaven. We are shown that in Rev. Also we are sown an earthly temple in Rev. 11, the Anti-Christ has control for 42 months. Its not impoertant to God AS PER THE SACRIFICES was my point. Jesus is the Sacrifice.


      No one is blinded who can't allow the gospel to open their eyes. As Paul said when Moses is read a veil is over their eyes. But when they turn to the Lord the veil is lifted. The fact that the Church began with converted Jews should have already proven to you what opens the unbelieving eyes. All the earth has a Temple to go before and it's not in the middle east. All believers are not waiting and watching for some weird guy claiming to be god sitting on a throne in a man made temple.

      I don't believe any of you have ever read the letter to the Galatians or the Ephesians or Hebrews and only a couple of verses out of Romans. There's no way this carnal Christianity will ever make any sense as long as people look to carnal things to save them.
      Paul says they are Blinded IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, so was he lying? DID YOU MISS THE IN PART !! IN PART means that not all Jews are Blinded, just most.

      It doesn't really matter what you believe about me in reality does it. You don't know me. I have probably been a preacher longer than you have been a Christian.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

        2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

        4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

        How can the Anti-Christ/Beast sit in the Temple and call himself God if there IS NO TEMPLE? It is not possible so that means Israel has to REBUILD THE TEMPLE. Its called logical deduction. Daniel 9:27 says the same thing. Re. 13 says the same thing. But here its called Gods Temple. The Anti-Christ is not standing in Christ Jesus calling himself God.
        You misunderstood. It was Christ Jesus who have rebuilt the temple!

        The New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church, is considered by God as His Holy Temple. Remember when Jesus told the Jews to destroy the Temple and in three days He will rebuilt it.

        John 2:18-21
        [18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
        [19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
        [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
        [21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

        What the Jews and many Christians today don't understand that the "temple of his body" represents the congregation of Israel started with the old.The old Testament congregation did fall at the Cross as her representation of the Kingdom was taken from them but Christ REBUILT the temple as new testament congregation which is the church. This is a spiritual temple - made without hand! Therefore the Church has been representing the Kingdom of God on earth since the Cross! THIS is where Satan wants to sit (rule) in prior to Christ's return! Not a physical temple in Jerusalem!

        Also we are sown an earthly temple in Rev. 11, the Anti-Christ has control for 42 months.
        Revelation 11:7-8
        [7] And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
        [8] And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

        This is not a physical temple or city! The Two Witnesses are the Elect of God where He empowered them with the power to bring Gospel to the world for 2,000 years until all Elect has been sealed. After this, their testimony for this purpose is finished and the beast (Satan) along with an army of false prophets and christs (locusts) will be loosened from bottomless pit to deceive those IN THE CHURCH who do not have the seal of God. Read about it in Revelation 9. The false prophets and christs will have the power to overcome the truthful testimony of the Elect because the unfaithful do not love the truth and coming after the lying signs and wonders (false gospel). This is how they have silenced (killed) the truthful testimony of two Witnesses (Elect) IN THE CHURCH where she has BECOME SPIRITUALLY what is called Sodom and Egypt. In other words, the church once ruled by Elects for the past 2,000 years, is NOW APOSTASY with false prophets and christs running it. This is HOW Satan sit (rule) in the Holy Temple (Church) through these false prophets and christs.

        Spiritual discerned!

        Paul says they are Blinded IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in.
        You misunderstood. The Old Testament Congregation has fallen and will never be representative of God's kingdom ever again, but God was clear that not ALL Jews will be blind. There would be some Jews during the New testament that will be saved along with the Gentiles by the testimony of Gospel until FULLNESS of the Gentiles is coming in. Once the last Gentile is saved (sealed), ALL Israel shall be saved. In other words, everyone in Covenant Israel has been saved! It is done! There won't be a national redemption in the middle east with Salvation return to Jews!

        The ministry of Two Witnesses for the purpose of bringing salvation to Covenant Israel will be FINISHED! Then the time of the end comes with the loosened of Satan and the fall of new testament congregation of Israel, the Church, just like the old, prior to Second Coming.

        It doesn't really matter what you believe about me, in reality, does it. You don't know me. I have probably been a preacher longer than you have been a Christian.
        You do sound a lot like Quasar.
        http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/cms/CROSSCARDS/17211-05272015-luke-1-46-47-mary-glorifies-lord-spirit-social-800x400.jpg

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post

          2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

          4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

          How can the Anti-Christ/Beast sit in the Temple and call himself God if there IS NO TEMPLE? It is not possible so that means Israel has to REBUILD THE TEMPLE. Its called logical deduction. Daniel 9:27 says the same thing. Re. 13 says the same thing. But here its called Gods Temple. The Anti-Christ is not standing in Christ Jesus calling himself God.
          Well for one thing it doesn't say anything about the Anti Christ. Another thing the Temple that was in Jerusalem wasn't destroyed yet, this was written before 70 AD. And so NO it doesn't mean there has to be a nation state called Israel to rebuild a temple where that one used to stand. And that's another thing, you're adding things to it that it does not say. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. So when you claim "Anti Christ" is referred to, that isn't coming by faith but by some doctrine that someone else has thought up. John said the Anti Christ came during his time. So you claiming it has to be at a future time like now is not by faith either.

          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
          Gods Temple is in Heaven. We are shown that in Rev. Also we are sown an earthly temple in Rev. 11, the Anti-Christ has control for 42 months. Its not impoertant to God AS PER THE SACRIFICES was my point. Jesus is the Sacrifice.
          So you're going to completely ignore the Apostles and Jesus Himself saying Christ and His body is the Temple of God. Ad go back to Revelation, a metaphorical book of visions given to John, and claim the Temple of God on earth will be made with hands by men. See, that's not by Faith because it doesn't come from the world of God.
          1 Corinthians 3;17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
          2nd Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[fn] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

          “I will dwell in them
          And walk among
          them.
          I will be their God,
          And they shall be My people.”


          So the Spiritual Kingdom means nothing and we must wait on a man made temple built by people who reject Christ. No, not me I believe on Faith not by what some man made doctrine says.
          Originally posted by Revelation Man View Post
          Paul says they are Blinded IN PART until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, so was he lying? DID YOU MISS THE IN PART !! IN PART means that not all Jews are Blinded, just most.

          It doesn't really matter what you believe about me in reality does it. You don't know me. I have probably been a preacher longer than you have been a Christian.
          And you ignore that Paul reminded them that he too was a Jew and the gospel of Christ is the way to remove the veil. 2nd Corinthians 3:16 clearly tell all Jews how to remove the blindness, and that is turn to the Lord. The gospel is how the Jews who are blinded receive their sight. Again, you are not using all of God's word. The Faith comes by hearing it and ignoring how the blindness is removed, 2nd Cor 3:16, is not by faith but is a man made doctrine..

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Hemi
            Well for one thing it doesn't say anything about the Anti Christ. Another thing the Temple that was in Jerusalem wasn't destroyed yet, this was written before 70 AD. And so NO it doesn't mean there has to be a nation state called Israel to rebuild a temple where that one used to stand. And that's another thing, you're adding things to it that it does not say. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. So when you claim "Anti Christ" is referred to, that isn't coming by faith but by some doctrine that someone else has thought up. John said the Anti Christ came during his time. So you claiming it has to be at a future time like now is not by faith either.
            Well said.

            So much for believing the scriptures as literally as possible. It must mean antichrist because that's what I copy and paste into the text that otherwise nowhere mentions "antichrist" and it's obvious to me so it must be obvious to everyone else. It can't possibly mean the Israel that was then existent because that Israel doesn't exist and since an Israel does now exist - even though it bears absolutely no resemblance whatsoever to the Israel of scripture - it must be the Israel about which the original 1st century Christian readers would have understood the author to be referring.

            Literally.

            Because that's what scripture tells us scripture must mean. It must mean an Israel in the far distant future the first readers would have had no idea about (especially for those who date the NT prophesies after the 70 a.d. destruction) that bears absolutely no resemblance to the original.

            Yeah, that's what God meant.

            Yeah, that's what scripture tells us scripture means.

            History confirms it.

            Literally.
            Last edited by Josheb; 07-17-17, 07:37 PM.
            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #21
              As I said in the OP, this is Comedy Hour for us who believe the Bible, believing God said what He meant & meant what He said, thru Himself, His Son Jesus, various of His angels, or by His servants the prophets. It'd be more-hilarious if the subject weren't so serious, and the farcical, clumsy attempts to make Scripture fit certain agendas couldn't lead some people astray.

              The jews fully intend to build a new temple in jerusalem. Don't believe it? Just ASK ANY JEW! It won't REALLY be a "temple of God", as JESUS will be left outta rgw equation, but mosta the world will view it as such. And the Jews also fully intend to revive the old system of animal sacrifice and all the Old Testament rites & observances of worship.

              No, the "man of sin, that Wicked, the beast, the antichrist" has NOT yet come.While the SPIRIT of antichrist has been around since Christ came, that ONE MAN, the most-evil man who will ever live, has NOT yet come. While some like to say he was Nero or some other Roman ruler, none of them met all the Scriptural criteria for the 'beast'; none has had a miracle-working false prophet as a deputy, noneentered the old temple in Jerusalem & declared himself to be God, none issued any 'marka the mbeast', and none was ever cast alive into gehenna, with his army destroyed en masse by Jesus' spoken word.

              And the Revelation was given during Domitian's reign, in the 90s AD. Preterists try to convince us it was given before 70 AD, as the later date makes their doctrine null-n-void(which it is anyway) so they try to twist history and make its giving before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

              As I said earlier, I readily admit there's some symbolism and metaphors in Scripture, but their meanings should be clear to all from an overview of all Scripture and world history.. For example, it's easy to see the sharp sword from Jesus' mouth is His spoken word. A dragon almost always refers to Satan. And empires are often called 'beasts' But again, those symbols & metaphors always refer to something LITERAL. For example, the head of gold on Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue represented his empire, which was governed by law & reached great heights of beauty and nobility. The Medo-Persian empire had one 'horn' (the Medes) greater than the other. The Greek empire, under Alexander The Great, struck swiftly, like a leopard. And the Roman empire was unstoppable for awhile.

              Later empires? there have been several greater than either the Roman or Holy Roman empires. "For instances" include the Ottoman empire, and the greatest empire of all, the British empire - not to mention the short-lived ones of Austria-Hungary, and the terrible Third Reich or the Soviet Union. But the antichrist/beast's empire will be the greatest there's ever been, and the MOST-EVIL!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                As I said in the OP, this is Comedy Hour for us who believe the Bible, believing God said what He meant & meant what He said, thru Himself, His Son Jesus, various of His angels, or by His servants the prophets. It'd be more-hilarious if the subject weren't so serious, and the farcical, clumsy attempts to make Scripture fit certain agendas couldn't lead some people astray.
                You're the one who rejects and ignores Jesus saying He is the Temple. You're the one who claimed you take it LITERALLY when you obviously don't.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                The jews fully intend to build a new temple in jerusalem. Don't believe it? Just ASK ANY JEW!
                I don't care what the Jews intend to do or what they actually do. The Temple of God has already been built and I know that without asking the Jews, I simple read the scriptures and I now that Jesus built it I three days just as prophesied and as Paul said we are the Temple of God who dwells in us.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                It won't REALLY be a "temple of God",
                That's what I've been saying. There will never be a temple of God made with human hands.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                as JESUS will be left outta rgw equation, but mosta the world will view it as such. And the Jews also fully intend to revive the old system of animal sacrifice and all the Old Testament rites & observances of worship.
                Again I don't care what the Jews do or intend to do. The Temple is built and is always being built upon and it doesn't matter what most of the world thinks about a man made structure, the Temple Of God was prophesied to be His dwelling place with men and that's exactly what we have. I choose to believe the Bible and not ask Jews what they intend to do.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                No, the "man of sin, that Wicked, the beast, the antichrist" has NOT yet come.
                John said the Antichrist had come and I believe him regardless of you saying "No".
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                While the SPIRIT of antichrist has been around since Christ came, that ONE MAN, the most-evil man who will ever live, has NOT yet come. While some like to say he was Nero or some other Roman ruler, none of them met all the Scriptural criteria for the 'beast'; none has had a miracle-working false prophet as a deputy, noneentered the old temple in Jerusalem & declared himself to be God, none issued any 'marka the mbeast', and none was ever cast alive into gehenna, with his army destroyed en masse by Jesus' spoken word.
                John said the Antichrist had come and reminded them they had heard it was coming and was already in the world. He never said the Antichrist was a person, never said only "his" Spirit had come. That's man made doctrine telling you that. Nero and all that other irrelevant man invented doctrine of "Antichrist" being ONE MAN or the most evil man to ever live, or Nero or a Antichrist deputy...ALL of that is extra Biblical nonsense and does not come by faith because it does not come from the word of God.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                And the Revelation was given during Domitian's reign, in the 90s AD. Preterists try to convince us it was given before 70 AD, as the later date makes their doctrine null-n-void(which it is anyway) so they try to twist history and make its giving before 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.
                Again, the Temple was rebuilt just as Jesus said it would. Domitian wasn't mentioned, YOU mentioned him. Jesus said Himself He was the Temple and He gave His Spirit to the writers of the scriptures to tell His Church we are His Temple, the dwelling place of God. That's all scriptural, and comes by faith Your doctrine comes by something else.
                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                As I said earlier, I readily admit there's some symbolism and metaphors in Scripture, but their meanings should be clear to all from an overview of all Scripture and world history.. For example, it's easy to see the sharp sword from Jesus' mouth is His spoken word. A dragon almost always refers to Satan. And empires are often called 'beasts' But again, those symbols & metaphors always refer to something LITERAL. For example, the head of gold on Nebuchadnezzar's dream statue represented his empire, which was governed by law & reached great heights of beauty and nobility. The Medo-Persian empire had one 'horn' (the Medes) greater than the other. The Greek empire, under Alexander The Great, struck swiftly, like a leopard. And the Roman empire was unstoppable for awhile.

                Later empires? there have been several greater than either the Roman or Holy Roman empires. "For instances" include the Ottoman empire, and the greatest empire of all, the British empire - not to mention the short-lived ones of Austria-Hungary, and the terrible Third Reich or the Soviet Union. But the antichrist/beast's empire will be the greatest there's ever been, and the MOST-EVIL!
                See, 99% of what you just wrote is meaningless and did not come from the word of God. The Holy Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, Meaningless to doctrine and the Faith. The overview of scripture proves to me the Temple was rebuilt in three days and no other temple of God will ever be built by human hands. The overview of history proves Daniel was correct and all of these man made doctrine have become so ridiculous they run people away from the faith rather than bring them in. Daniel said the last and eternal Kingdom would rise out of the fourth Kingdom and sure enough that's exactly what happened. We don't have to adjust or claim Daniel actually meant a "Revived" Roman Empire, or Daniel gave us a gap of a few thousand years, NO, we see Daniel was inspired by God and got it right the first time and anything that requires a "Revision" or a gap in what He said is false.

                The antichrist beast empire claim is nonsense and does not agree with Daniel and did not come by Faith. . There was a prophesied 4 Kingdoms and out of the fourth would come the eternal Kingdom. Those of us in the Kingdom see it, Know it happened and we know no man made false doctrine can ever take that away. Deceivers try to claim there is something better coming down the pike, just after these four blood moons, or just before the last of "this generation" or the countdown from 1948 or 1967, or the next Passover, or Shemitah, but it's just right around the corner...NO! All of that foolishness denies the Kingdom, the Temple is fulfilled. The Messiah has come already and the Jews have the gospel just like we do and the sacrifice of bulls and goats is done away.

                The simple gospel plan which God had ordained before the foundation of the world is so easy to understand and doesn't have to rely on gimmicks, false prophesies, guesses on how long is a generation is or was 9-11 a Harbinger for a "shaking"...I find all of that so ridiculous. And talking statues, and the idea that a man made temple with cutting the throats of animals will cause Jews to realize "Hey Jesus was the Messiah after all" when the word of God has already said "The gospel of Christ is the power of God to salvation", It went to the Jews first, as God commanded, and then to the rest of us. Those who are still blinded are blind by their own choice. God's word told them exactly how to remove the blinders. Just as the first sermon in Jerusalem preached to the Jews said..."Repent and be baptized everyone of you for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." And as verse 48 said, God added to the church daily those who were being saved. Paul also tells the Jews how to remove the blindness. Turn to the Lord! But man made doctrines tell them to wait, rebuild a temple, allow a denier of Christ to sit in it, sacrifice animals then you will realize Jesus as the Messiah after all. NONSENSE!

                Comment


                • #23
                  You misunderstood. It was Christ Jesus who have rebuilt the temple!

                  The New Testament congregation of Israel, the Church, is considered by God as His Holy Temple. Remember when Jesus told the Jews to destroy the Temple and in three days He will rebuilt it.


                  Tribulationsigns :

                  - - - No, TS, it is you who misunderstands.

                  The church - the body of Christ is not going to be around on this earth forever. . . . The day is coming when it is going to be removed to heaven and then God will allow the Jews to build another Temple in Jerusalem.

                  You would have a point if the church was going to be here indefinitely, but it is NOT. . . And if you have eyes to see, it is obvious that most of the Christian church has apostasized and that will cause God to wind things up and bring the entire body of Christ to the Judgment Seat of Christ.

                  The proof of this is Acts 15:16,17 -
                  " 16 After this - [ after the church age ] - I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

                  This verse is very plain, TS. What's your excuse for not believing it ?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by roby3
                    As I said in the OP, this is Comedy Hour for us who believe the Bible, believing God said what He meant & meant what He said, thru Himself, His Son Jesus, various of His angels, or by His servants the prophets.
                    The problem is that's it is you who doesn't believe what He said as He said it. You do not believe the Bible as literally as possible.

                    And you are going to demonstrate it in a few lines.
                    Originally posted by roby3
                    It'd be more-hilarious if the subject weren't so serious, and the farcical, clumsy attempts to make Scripture fit certain agendas couldn't lead some people astray.
                    The only one's leading people astray are the PDers because 1) believers believe the false predictions and when they don't come true they become skeptical, cynical, impotent, or leave the church, and 2) when outsiders see these things they take the hypocrisy to say Christ, Christianity, and Christians are full of dross.

                    Eschatology isn't required for salvation. Comparatively speaking, it is not a "serious" subject. And as PDers preach it is unnecessary because all the while PDers are spreading fear and anxiety and doom the rest of Christendom is working to transform lives on all levels with the gospel so if there is ever a rapture that takes Christians from the planet we'll be right there standing before God with arms raised in worship... without having believed a single word of PDism. It is an unnecessary eschatology.

                    The one trying to force scripture say something it doesn't say is you, roby. Here it is:
                    Originally posted by roby3
                    The Jews fully intend to build a new temple in Jerusalem.
                    And there it is! That statement is nowhere found in scripture. Whether the Jews intend to rebuild the temple or not has nothing to do with prophesy. The facts of scripture are that nowhere does the Bible say there will be a third temple of stone.

                    Show me a verse that states, "The Jews will build a third temple of stone," roby.

                    When you don't find such a statement anywhere in scripture admit that you are not believing the scriptures as literally as possible and that you aren't using scripture to render scripture.






                    I have posted this a dozen times and it remains ignored: pre-tribulational Premillennial Dispensationalism...


                    > ...isn't a literal hermeneutic. Not even close. No one can actually practice it so it forces the PDer to live hypocritically by claiming with one breath to read the Bible literally and with the next to impose a pile of inferences onto the text.

                    > ...is the only eschatology wherein its adherents make repeated false predictions and no one hold any of them accountable (and have been doing so since its inception in the mid-1800s),

                    > ...forces its adherent into a life of dissociated or double-minded living because they preach gospel change in society, culture, and politics but with the next breath declare that none of it will matter because the world is going to go to hell in a hand basket any day now.

                    > ...requires the adherent to ignore 1800 years of well=established church doctrine.

                    > ...compromises core doctrines like Christology, soteriology, and ecclesiology.

                    > ...leads to a hypocritical witness because no one actually lives as if they believe it's true. Adherents of PDism go on about their lives as if everything is going to be fine for their life and the life of their child all while the preach imminent destruction.


                    Six reasons why no one should be believe pretribulational Premillennial Dispensationalist eschatology.




                    You, roby, claimed to believe scripture as literally as possible and the facts are in: you don't.

                    You, roby, claimed to use scripture to gain the meaning of scripture and the facts are in: you don't.

                    You, roby, claimed hindsight and history were appropriate to know the meaning of scripture. Neither is more important that first principles of sound exegesis and sound exegesis begins by understanding that whatever was written first had meaning to the first century church. And since the first century church would have understood they were the temple of God they would have read scripture much, much, much differently than you, roby.


                    You do not believe scripture as literally as possible and you do not use scripture to render scripture. You comments about the temple prove it.


                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #25






                      I have posted this a dozen times and it remains ignored: pre-tribulational Premillennial Dispensationalism
                      Josheb :
                      Lets dispose of this assertion once and for all, shall we . . . . .





                      > ...isn't a literal hermeneutic. Not even close. No one can actually practice it so it forces the PDer to live hypocritically by claiming with one breath to read the Bible literally and with the next to impose a pile of inferences onto the text.
                      Who is trying to practise it. It is a belief about future events. What is to practise in addition to the law of Christ ?





                      > ...is the only eschatology wherein its adherents make repeated false predictions and no one hold any of them accountable (and have been doing so since its inception in the mid-1800s),
                      Men do a lot of things that are not scriptural or anti-scriptural. Christians are not perfect . . . let alone PTDers.



                      > ...forces its adherent into a life of dissociated or double-minded living because they preach gospel change in society, culture, and politics but with the next breath declare that none of it will matter because the world is going to go to hell in a hand basket any day now.
                      How so ? I profess to be a PTDer but I am not preaching change in society, culture and politics. I preach the gospel of the grace of God. Leave the societal and cultural change to the religious liberals.






                      > ...requires the adherent to ignore 1800 years of well=established church doctrine.
                      Yes, it requires us to ignore 1800 years of anti-Bible Roman Catholicism and liberal church doctrines. The end time doctrines of future things had its skeletal beginnings even in the early church.






                      > ...compromises core doctrines like Christology, soteriology, and ecclesiology.
                      News to me, my doctrine is orthodox to the core.





                      > ...leads to a hypocritical witness because no one actually lives as if they believe it's true. Adherents of PDism go on about their lives as if everything is going to be fine for their life and the life of their child all while the preach imminent destruction.
                      Do you expect PTDers to go to a mountain top and divest themselves of all earthly belongings ? Why should we not preach imminent destruction. You might just as well ask us why we preach that physical death is coming and beyond that - the Lake of Fire. This is the commandment of Christ Himself and of Peter to "save yourselves from this untoward generation " - Acts 2:40

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Chtek, you're comments and inquries are all off-topic and you appear to have missed the point of the op. You actually wrote, "Who is trying to practice it. It is a belief about future events. What is to practise in addition to the law of Christ?," when the clear, plain, obvious, undeniable, unassailable, irrefutable point of the op is that the author of the op is trying to practice it!!!!!

                        So before you and I trade posts let's agree to a couple of things:

                        1) This op is not a moratorium or comparative discourse on competing eschatologies. This has already been noted. Such conversation belong in another op.

                        2) This op claims to believe scripture as literally as possible but the evidence submitted in support of that claim contradicts that claim. That is what this discussion is about. That is what I and a number of other respondents have brought to this op. You are welcome and invited to have that discussion, but anything else is irrelevant and will be ignored accordingly.

                        3) This op claims to use scripture to render scripture but again the evidence submitted in support of that position contradicts the claim. That is what this discussion is about. That is what I and a number of other respondents have brought to this op. You are welcome and invited to have that discussion, but anything else is irrelevant and will be ignored accordingly.

                        4) If memory serves me correctly you're a Historicist, not a Dispensationalist and therefore comments I've made about PDism don't apply to Historicists. If you're not a Hstoricists then please do clarify your position so that I can better address your posts but don't post about things not relevant to the op's claim he believes scripture as literally as possible and uses scripture to render scripture.

                        And let's try to have a different conversation than the non-conversation we usually have.
                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by chtek View Post
                          The church - the body of Christ is not going to be around on this earth forever. . . . The day is coming when it is going to be removed to heaven and then God will allow the Jews to build another Temple in Jerusalem.
                          No where in Scripture that predicted a physical rebuilt temple upon temple mount in Jerusalem. No where. That is just one of many premillennial lies.

                          You would have a point if the church was going to be here indefinitely, but it is NOT. . . And if you have eyes to see, it is obvious that most of the Christian church has apostasized and that will cause God to wind things up and bring the entire body of Christ to the Judgment Seat of Christ.
                          You do not understand how the congregation of Israel works. The body of Christ makes up of two groups of people: The Elect (True Church) and the Professed (Corporate Church). The True is only a part of the congregation.

                          The proof of this is Acts 15:16,17 -16 After this [ after the church age ] -I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
                          You need to read verse 16 above again... have not the residue of men and all the Gentiles have already went into the tabernacle which is body of Christ after the Cross? This is where Christ as a chief cornerstone has established in! This is a spiritual house, not physical temple, where Christ is a chief cornerstone.

                          1 Peter 2:5-6
                          [5] Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
                          [6] Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

                          The rebuilt spiritual house started after three days when Christ resurrected. Didn't you read the Scripture?

                          John 2:19-21
                          [19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
                          [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
                          [21] But he spake of the temple of his body.

                          http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/cms/CROSSCARDS/17211-05272015-luke-1-46-47-mary-glorifies-lord-spirit-social-800x400.jpg

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TribulationSigns View Post

                            No where in Scripture that predicted a physical rebuilt temple upon temple mount in Jerusalem. No where. That is just one of many premillennial lies.



                            You do not understand how the congregation of Israel works. The body of Christ makes up of two groups of people: The Elect (True Church) and the Professed (Corporate Church). The True is only a part of the congregation.



                            You need to read verse 16 above again... have not the residue of men and all the Gentiles have already went into the tabernacle which is body of Christ after the Cross? This is where Christ as a chief cornerstone has established in! This is a spiritual house, not physical temple, where Christ is a chief cornerstone.


                            Tribulationsigns :

                            - - - Yeah, yeah. As usual, you allegorize what is clearly literal, and visible and physical. Acts is perfectly clear that the Temple will be rebuilt again. . . . and even now in 2017, the Israelis are making plans for it. You will have to eat your words, but if you really are one of Christ's own, then you won't be around to see it.




                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hemi View Post

                              Jesus said No one goes to the Father except through Him. So what exactly is the point of a new man made Temple and the sacrifice of animals? Does the sacrifice of bull and goats have more meaning than Jesus' once for all sacrifice?

                              For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

                              That's from Hebrews 10:4 and in a place where the writer is explaining to the early jewish converts that the old law is done and they were living under a new and better covenant. So why do you not accept it Literally but you DO accept the metaphorical language of Revelation Literally?
                              The book of Revelation is one part literal and one part symbolic When John says "looked" or he "saw", He physically measured things in the futue We have no reason to doubt that he was literally, physically present with these events unfolding on his eyes in real time. This is how he describes the experience. Are you saying the whole of Revelation is abstract? There's no justification for such a view.
                              Evolutionary thinkers communicate via strawmen. Shadow-boxing without the gloves. If you can get past the strawman, there awaits a fifty-foot layer of invective, then another fifty foot layer of unreasonable responses, then they start another thread...

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by roby3 View Post
                                There's a comical "war of words" going on here between several people who are making the mistake of not believing Scripture LITERALLY AS POSSIBLE. While I know there's some symbolism in Scripture, it's easy to know its meaninga thru other Scriptures and the hindsight of our overview of ALL Scripture, plus world history, which is shaped by Scripture.

                                We see LITERAL fulfillment of prophecy in history and in events right before our eyes now. There's war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians with decapitations, and the trampling underfoot of Jerusalem by gentiles even as we type. This was all prophesied by Jesus. We also see Egypt in fear of the land of Judah as prophesied in Isaiah 19, and the unmistakable events of the rebirth of the nation of Judah(modern Israel) with Jerusalem as its capital. And we see Jerusalem is a burdensome stone to the rest of the world as per Zech. 12:3. And there's right now a great "falling-away" from the true worship of God, with ACCEPTANCE OF SIN in society, such as fornication and homosexuality, with many churches having "services" that are more of a party than anything else! There are many other Biblical prophecies that have LITERALLY cometa pass, some in ancient times, some in recent times, and there's simply NO legitimate reason to believe the rest of Biblical prophecy won't cometa pass JUST-AS-LITERALLY!

                                So, here's how it appears the rest of Biblical prophecy will be fulfilled:

                                The Jews will build a new temple in Jerusalem. They already have the building materials and the "blueprints", and are now breeding the animals to be used in temple ceremonies. They're in the process of determining the exact site on which to build it. It may or may not be in the place now occupied by the Dome of the Rock.

                                There will be a great ruler who will build an empire from many of the peoples and nations that were once part of Rome. This man will be of Roman descent, whether that's apparent to the world or not. He may come to power before or after the new Jewish temple is built, but both events will be close together. This man will continue to add peoples & nations to his empire or confederation, whatever it'll be called, and will broker some kind of deal to cause Israel & her current enemies to disarm. But the old hatred will still be there, and these enemies will use their petro$$ to make an alliance with Russia, who's cash-starved right now, but who still has a mighty military force & plenty of weapons, to attack Israel, which will then be "a land of unwalled villages", that is, disarmed. But GOD shall act in Israel's behalf, destroying 5/6 of the invading armies. Exactly HOW He will do this, I dunno. But israel will then realize who Messiah is!

                                The world ruler will have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy, whose signs & wonders will deceive all but the Christians. With their power secure, with his military and police forces in place, the ruler & his deputy will enter the temple in Jerusalem & set up the ruler's statue, which the FP will supernaturally cause to speak & move. And the ruler will declare himself to be God. This will be the "abomination of desolation". The FP will then demand that everyone worship his boss & his statue. At that time, he will issue the "mark of the beast", replacing all cash and plastic money. This will likely be some sorta embedded microchip.

                                The rapture may occur at this time, or shortly before. to pave the way for the "mark of the beast", And shortly after that, the great trib will begin.There will be trib saints, as Scripture plainly mentions them.

                                The great trib will be cut short, as Jesus prophesied, lest all life on earth perish.

                                Immediately after the trib is ended, there'll be a great cosmological disturbance, with the obscuring of much of the natural light, during which Jesus shall return in great power and glory.

                                This is just an overview, with many "nutz-n-boltz" left out. But it'll all cometa pass LITERALLY!
                                Olkay you've laid all this out but no references to go with it. "The Jews will build a temple" - this is not specifically stated but derived from other references It is important when making these asserting conclusions that you show the line of reasoning leading up to it

                                For example, Jesus used a wide range of earthly examples to teach heavenly principles, but when it came to describing his return, he used wedding imagery. This imagery repeats in Revelation. Many scholars ignore this, but the mechanics of a Jewish wedding provide deep insights to how all this will fall out. You should expand on these things rather than making them a bullet item
                                Evolutionary thinkers communicate via strawmen. Shadow-boxing without the gloves. If you can get past the strawman, there awaits a fifty-foot layer of invective, then another fifty foot layer of unreasonable responses, then they start another thread...

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