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As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post
    Originally posted by yosef View Post
    My enthusiasm for CARM has been tempered by the realization that very few are actually interested in reasoned discussion/debate. Most seem only interested in defending the belief system they inherited from a corrupt world. C'est la vie, indeed.
    How 'bout you, yosef?

    Do you have any questions regarding the Sabbath resurrection that has been hidden from mainstream Christianity for almost 2000 years?

    It appears there are few takers to my challenge.....for what reasons I'm not sure........
    You ignored my requests and questions.
    Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Trucker View Post

      You ignored my requests and questions.
      To be courteous I'll just say......I don't like dealing with rude people. You can go ahead and try to convince yourself there is another reason I ignore you.....but it's really just because you're rude.

      You probably won't hear from me again..............
      The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post

        I am not Yosef, but I do have something to add to the debate and that is I really do not care when Jesus arose, only that He did. I serve a risen Savior.

        I will say the debate is interesting and you brought up some good debating, I shall call it fire power for the use of a better term. We are fortunate beyond belief to have the Holy Writ even if it has a few errors. The Plan of Salvation is there intact.

        The fact that evening does start at noon brings up the question as to when the Israelite Sabbath originally began. Noon would be more accurate that sunset especially in mountainous areas and North and South pole regions.
        I think it's good to try and figure things out that just don't seem square to scripture and the resurrection story has always had some differing opinions regarding its chronology. You are correct in saying that the fact that our Savior rose is the only important thing.....but I don't think the Great God of the universe minds us attempting to nail down the chronology [Proverbs 25:2].

        I'm pretty sure that the new day (Biblically) starts at sundown. The confusion regarding "Evening" or the Hebrew, "ereb"....stems from the fact that by the time the King James folks started translating the scriptures.....the English word "evening" meant something else entirely different from the Hebrew definition of "ereb"....hence the confusion in the chronology.
        The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by e v e View Post

          What you explained about resurrection and sabbath made sense... and has to be... since the day of rest is the only day reserved for Him... when to remember and hold to our promise - and hope for - Shiloh which is His Return and our restoration... and will be our own resurrection from the dead... (His defacto undoing of the fall when Man entered death) .... this being the Change.

          and that is what He showed us at His resurrection... that it was on the sabbath is important... thank you.

          and the mistranslation of scripture is a given, and intentional.
          I think it's important to remember just where this "fairy tale" that Sunday has some kind of religious importance came from. It's not called the day of the "Sun" for nothing and the infant Catholic Church wished to assign it some reverence in their new interpretation of just what really took place.....and when it did. "Sol Invictus", The Unconquered Sun was one of the major gods of pagan Rome....and his special day was Sunday. It was only natural that the Roman Catholic Church would want him included in their new religion......so they changed the day of resurrection and informed the laity. They just couldn't change the original Greek....and this is where they were caught!

          Martin Luther was and avid anti semite.....so dissing the Sabbath seemed O.K. to him.....and the confusion continued.
          The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post
            To be courteous I'll just say......I don't like dealing with rude people. You can go ahead and try to convince yourself there is another reason I ignore you.....but it's really just because you're rude.

            You probably won't hear from me again..............
            Straight talk is often mistaken, and often conveniently so, as rudeness. I asked you simple but relevant questions.

            Suit yourself.
            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

            Comment


            • #66

              Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post

              To be courteous I'll just say......I don't like dealing with rude people. You can go ahead and try to convince yourself there is another reason I ignore you.....but it's really just because you're rude.

              You probably won't hear from me again..............

              I wholeheartedly agree.

              that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
              (Mt 18:16, Deut. 17:6; 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Cor. 13:1).

              Trucker
              The 2 end-time prophets will preach a return to the FOUNDATIONAL apostles and prophets to those, who are intoxicated on the Roman harlotry of adding tares to the word of God
              Get rid of the dross in the Roman Canon - Raise My Word to the HIGHEST place

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post

                I think it's important to remember just where this "fairy tale" that Sunday has some kind of religious importance came from. It's not called the day of the "Sun" for nothing and the infant Catholic Church wished to assign it some reverence in their new interpretation of just what really took place.....and when it did. "Sol Invictus", The Unconquered Sun was one of the major gods of pagan Rome....and his special day was Sunday. It was only natural that the Roman Catholic Church would want him included in their new religion......so they changed the day of resurrection and informed the laity. They just couldn't change the original Greek....and this is where they were caught!

                Martin Luther was and avid anti semite.....so dissing the Sabbath seemed O.K. to him.....and the confusion continued.
                well the context is Nephesh soul not ape dna.

                the adamite soul...

                luther, as many, confused and not understanding the true topic is not
                the dna of fallen flesh but whose souls - His souls or
                Those of canaan.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post

                  Martin Luther was and avid anti semite.....so dissing the Sabbath seemed O.K. to him.....and the confusion continued.
                  Let's explore further......

                  One of the most poignant passages regarding the crucifixion/resurrection is this:

                  [Matthew 12:40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                  Just where is the "heart of the Earth"? And.....why would He be there?

                  Ask any casual Christian and they will tell you it means.....The Tomb! Does it? It was to be a very important sign as to what would follow so it shouldn't be to hard to figure out.
                  The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post

                    Let's explore further......

                    One of the most poignant passages regarding the crucifixion/resurrection is this:

                    [Matthew 12:40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

                    Just where is the "heart of the Earth"? And.....why would He be there?

                    Ask any casual Christian and they will tell you it means.....The Tomb! Does it? It was to be a very important sign as to what would follow so it shouldn't be to hard to figure out.
                    That should be "TOO"............as in also.
                    The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Any ideas what "Heart of the Earth" means? We should find out because He was there for three days and three nights and it's awful easy to prove it wasn't only the tomb.
                      The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post
                        Any ideas what "Heart of the Earth" means? We should find out because He was there for three days and three nights and it's awful easy to prove it wasn't only the tomb.
                        The Heart of the Earth-- is it the place where Yeshua ministered to those souls who preceded Him in death?
                        Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. KJV
                        This is why I am here.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by yosef View Post

                          The Heart of the Earth-- is it the place where Yeshua ministered to those souls who preceded Him in death?
                          This is the normal "Main Stream" concept of the place where Yeshua went prior to His resurrection after being entombed.....but the chronology does not show Him in the tomb for three days and three nights.....so the "Heart of the Earth" must be something else. Perhaps a metaphor?

                          Everyone think. Why would he go to the center of the Earth....the Heart? I know.....many folks believe in an ever burning hellfire and assume it's in the center of the molten core of the Earth. If the "Main Stream" concept of that is correct......why go there? Those folks are already condemned to an ever burning life in Hell. What would be His point? Revenge....or a "I told you so moment"? Hardly! Scripture does not show this position anyway so it's a moot point.

                          The "Heart of the Earth:" is indeed a metaphor for the time He would spend under the command and control of evil mankind after His arrest in the garden. It would last for exactly three days and three nights including the time He would repose in the tomb.

                          The chronology is lengthy and somewhat complicated but I would be glad to run through it if there is any interest or disagreement.
                          The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post

                            This is the normal "Main Stream" concept of the place where Yeshua went prior to His resurrection after being entombed.....but the chronology does not show Him in the tomb for three days and three nights.....so the "Heart of the Earth" must be something else. Perhaps a metaphor?

                            Everyone think. Why would he go to the center of the Earth....the Heart? I know.....many folks believe in an ever burning hellfire and assume it's in the center of the molten core of the Earth. If the "Main Stream" concept of that is correct......why go there? Those folks are already condemned to an ever burning life in Hell. What would be His point? Revenge....or a "I told you so moment"? Hardly! Scripture does not show this position anyway so it's a moot point.

                            The "Heart of the Earth:" is indeed a metaphor for the time He would spend under the command and control of evil mankind after His arrest in the garden. It would last for exactly three days and three nights including the time He would repose in the tomb.

                            The chronology is lengthy and somewhat complicated but I would be glad to run through it if there is any interest or disagreement.
                            So, you're saying the 3 days and 3 nights begin from the moment of arrest in the garden- correct?
                            Interesting thesis; I'd like you see your timeline and how you came to the idea.
                            Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. KJV
                            This is why I am here.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by yosef View Post

                              So, you're saying the 3 days and 3 nights begin from the moment of arrest in the garden- correct?
                              Interesting thesis; I'd like you see your timeline and how you came to the idea.
                              Let's look at what Messiah was going to do during the "Three Days and Three Nights".

                              [Matthew 16:21] From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

                              The 3rd day from what?

                              [Matthew 17:22-23] And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

                              The 3rd day from what?

                              [Matthew 20:18-19] Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death, And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

                              [Mark8:31]And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, andbe rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

                              [Mark 9:31]For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

                              [Mark 10:33-34] Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.

                              [Luke 9:22] Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

                              Again.......3rd day from what?

                              [Luke 18:31-33] Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

                              [Luke 24:7] Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

                              [Luke 24:20-21] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since "these things" were done.

                              Aha! Today is the third day (He resurrected earlier that same day) The timing becomes more clear now.

                              [Luke 24:45-46] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

                              When did He begin to suffer? Was it when He was delivered in the garden to evil men? Did the three days begin at that time?

                              [I Peter 1:19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

                              We are told we were saved by a Messiah without a blemish and a spot. When did he begin to exhibit blemishes and spots? Do you think that the treatment He received from the Chief Priests and the scribes would cause some blemishes to form [Matthew 26:67]? This transpired during the early morning hours of the 14th (Passover Preparation) and was continued during the day time hours of Passover Preparation [John 19:14] by Pilate [Mark 15:15].

                              We were saved by His blood that flowed from mistreatment as soon as the Three Days and Three Nights began;

                              [Isaiah 53:5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

                              All these things began before He entered the tomb prior to the sundown of the 14th of Nisan. He was not in the tomb for three days and three nights but only part of that time.

                              Every prophesy that mentions the Three Days and Three nights begins with His suffering before evil mankind prior to his crucifixion. The scripture does not state "ONE TIME" that Yeshua must die and raise again the third day. There is always a sequence of suffering included in each prophesy before the actual death.

                              There's more.............
                              The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Diego 1618 View Post



                                There's more.............

                                [I Corinthians 15:47-48] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

                                [John 3:31] He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

                                [Jeremiah 17:9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

                                When Yeshua was arrested in the garden He entered the "Heart of the Earth".....the wickedness of the command and control of mankind. This would have been before sunrise on Nisan 14 [Matthew 27:1-2][Mark 15:1][Luke 22:66][John 18:28]. By the time He was nailed to the tree He had been beaten, spit upon, slapped, scourged, was given a crown of thorns.....and was already bleeding innocent blood. When He died (3:00 P.M. Nisan 14) He had then spent about 12 hours in the "Heart of the Earth".

                                When Joseph placed the body in the tomb it was shortly before sundown of the 14th and the High Sabbath of Passover was about to begin [John 19:31]. He spent the 15th in the tomb (36 hours from entering the Heart of the Earth) and the 16th in the tomb (60 hours in the Heart of the Earth). He resurrected early morning of the 17th (before sunrise) 72 hours from the time He was arrested in the garden and first entered the Heart of the Earth.

                                Matthew 12:40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
                                The stone was not rolled away from the tomb so He could come out. It was removed so the world could look in.......... and see that the tomb was empty.

                                Comment

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