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Proof of God’s existence?

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  • Proof of God’s existence?

    Why is it that all humans die someday? Even the Christians say “Jesus” died, but not: “God” died. In the Bible, Mark 10:18 says only God is truly good. I can believe this because all humans die and God does not. Humans are beings. God is a being. One dies, the other doesn’t. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know you’re not really a good being. Otherwise, you’ll never die. It’s undeniable. Then it should be no surprise to know that humanity is on the verge of extinction; there’s a war between Good and evil behind the scenes. Goodness should have just deleted evil at the beginning, but strangely, evil has enough power to prevent its immediate death. This is why humanity STILL exists today. But by definition, good is stronger than evil; Goodness will win the war and finally vanquish humanity after striking ENOUGH killer blows to evil.

    Now, how come humans don’t exist in a perfect abode like what you could call Heaven? A place where there is only peace, one is always strong and healthy, no hatred, no dishonesty, no filth etc.

    You are what you create! God is only good and thus cannot create anything that isn’t good. It is known that existence is full of many infirmities and rubbish. Who created those? Definitely not God! This therefore means that humans are actually all the sin, evil, bad, wrong, flaws etc in existence. Yes, there is a human out there who embodies bad breath, initials: BB = Barry Borden, who embodies body odor, initials: BO = Benjamin Oliver, who embodies weakness, initials: WN = Winifred Newton etc.

    Good is stronger than evil, therefore God cannot be limited and is already omnipotent and omniscient. He can do absolutely anything good, but there is no such thing as purifying humanity. Making a change to a being means changing identity. Purging humanity would mean deleting the old identity of sin, and somehow creating a new one of purity. That deletion means death. They call it sinner, but that sinner is actually a sin itself!

    The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it. Therefore there’s a higher power ensuring that existence will one day be purified. Too bad no one here will be there!

  • #2
    "The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it. Therefore there’s a higher power ensuring that existence will one day be purified.
    Too bad no one here will be there!"

    Wherever here is for you , then, better move. Find those who will be there, by grace, thru faith in Jesus.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by GoodMessenger View Post
      Why is it that all humans die someday? Even the Christians say “Jesus” died, but not: “God” died. In the Bible, Mark 10:18 says only God is truly good. I can believe this because all humans die and God does not. Humans are beings. God is a being. One dies, the other doesn’t. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know you’re not really a good being. Otherwise, you’ll never die. It’s undeniable. Then it should be no surprise to know that humanity is on the verge of extinction; there’s a war between Good and evil behind the scenes. Goodness should have just deleted evil at the beginning, but strangely, evil has enough power to prevent its immediate death. This is why humanity STILL exists today. But by definition, good is stronger than evil; Goodness will win the war and finally vanquish humanity after striking ENOUGH killer blows to evil.

      Now, how come humans don’t exist in a perfect abode like what you could call Heaven? A place where there is only peace, one is always strong and healthy, no hatred, no dishonesty, no filth etc.

      You are what you create! God is only good and thus cannot create anything that isn’t good. It is known that existence is full of many infirmities and rubbish. Who created those? Definitely not God! This therefore means that humans are actually all the sin, evil, bad, wrong, flaws etc in existence. Yes, there is a human out there who embodies bad breath, initials: BB = Barry Borden, who embodies body odor, initials: BO = Benjamin Oliver, who embodies weakness, initials: WN = Winifred Newton etc.

      Good is stronger than evil, therefore God cannot be limited and is already omnipotent and omniscient. He can do absolutely anything good, but there is no such thing as purifying humanity. Making a change to a being means changing identity. Purging humanity would mean deleting the old identity of sin, and somehow creating a new one of purity. That deletion means death. They call it sinner, but that sinner is actually a sin itself!

      The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it. Therefore there’s a higher power ensuring that existence will one day be purified. Too bad no one here will be there!
      Man was created sinless but man choose to reject God and God's love then typical little sin loving man wants to try to blame God for man's choice to live in sin!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by GoodMessenger View Post
        The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it.
        I do not accept it. Physical death is being confused with what most people call "spiritual" death, or being "dead in transgression" (Eph. 2:1, Col. 2:13).

        Adam and Eve were created good (Gen. 1:31). They were also created unashamed and sinless (Gen. 2:25, Rom. 5:12). They became not-good because of their disobedience. Sin brings estrangement and death to the already mortal bodies.

        They were also created mortal. We know this because the word "immortal" means "unable to die" or "not subject to death," and God quite plainly states it is possible for them to die in Gen. 2:17. We can also infer their mortality from the simple fact immortal creatures have no need for a "Tree of Life."


        So the mere fact humans die is not in and of itself evidence humanity is not good.


        If you die physically without having ever sinned you still need Jesus because no one can come to the Father but by Jesus, who is the resurrection and was foreknown before the foundation of the world - before a single sin was ever committed - as the perfect blemish-free sacrifice. Even in his good, unashamed, and sinless pre-disobedient state Adam still needed Jesus.


        If you sin you are "dead in transgression," or "transgressionally dead." If you die physically also transgressionally dead then you suffer the second death of eternal destruction in the fiery lake.

        If you have died transgressionally but also died in Christ then when you physically die you do not suffer the second death of eternal destruction but instead arise with an incorruptible spiritual body into eternal life (1 Cor. 15:35-54).



        Here's the important point if you wish to search the scriptures to better understand this: the Bible uses the same word "death" in many diverse ways and discernment is necessary to understand what kind of death is being revealed because not all death is physical.
        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GoodMessenger View Post
          Why is it that all humans die someday?
          Because of sin. Although this isn't the way it was in the beginning.


          Now, how come humans don’t exist in a perfect abode like what you could call Heaven? A place where there is only peace, one is always strong and healthy, no hatred, no dishonesty, no filth etc.
          In the beginning humans did; it was called Eden.

          Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

          Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Guest View Post
            Why is it that all humans die someday? Even the Christians say “Jesus” died, but not: “God” died. In the Bible, Mark 10:18 says only God is truly good. I can believe this because all humans die and God does not. Humans are beings. God is a being. One dies, the other doesn’t. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know you’re not really a good being. Otherwise, you’ll never die. It’s undeniable. Then it should be no surprise to know that humanity is on the verge of extinction; there’s a war between Good and evil behind the scenes. Goodness should have just deleted evil at the beginning, but strangely, evil has enough power to prevent its immediate death. This is why humanity STILL exists today. But by definition, good is stronger than evil; Goodness will win the war and finally vanquish humanity after striking ENOUGH killer blows to evil.

            Now, how come humans don’t exist in a perfect abode like what you could call Heaven? A place where there is only peace, one is always strong and healthy, no hatred, no dishonesty, no filth etc.

            You are what you create! God is only good and thus cannot create anything that isn’t good. It is known that existence is full of many infirmities and rubbish. Who created those? Definitely not God! This therefore means that humans are actually all the sin, evil, bad, wrong, flaws etc in existence. Yes, there is a human out there who embodies bad breath, initials: BB = Barry Borden, who embodies body odor, initials: BO = Benjamin Oliver, who embodies weakness, initials: WN = Winifred Newton etc.

            Good is stronger than evil, therefore God cannot be limited and is already omnipotent and omniscient. He can do absolutely anything good, but there is no such thing as purifying humanity. Making a change to a being means changing identity. Purging humanity would mean deleting the old identity of sin, and somehow creating a new one of purity. That deletion means death. They call it sinner, but that sinner is actually a sin itself!

            The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it. Therefore there’s a higher power ensuring that existence will one day be purified. Too bad no one here will be there!

            BINGO!
            Rom 6:23- the wages of sin is death.

            (Of course we know Churchianity & World Religions teach it means Eternal Char-Broiling...)

            Comment


            • #7
              Again!! Only the body ever dies not the real person = spirit. Jesus's body died but not the real Jesus =His Spirit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Guest View Post
                Why is it that all humans die someday? Even the Christians say “Jesus” died, but not: “God” died. In the Bible, Mark 10:18 says only God is truly good. I can believe this because all humans die and God does not. Humans are beings. God is a being. One dies, the other doesn’t. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll know you’re not really a good being. Otherwise, you’ll never die. It’s undeniable. Then it should be no surprise to know that humanity is on the verge of extinction; there’s a war between Good and evil behind the scenes. Goodness should have just deleted evil at the beginning, but strangely, evil has enough power to prevent its immediate death. This is why humanity STILL exists today. But by definition, good is stronger than evil; Goodness will win the war and finally vanquish humanity after striking ENOUGH killer blows to evil.

                Now, how come humans don’t exist in a perfect abode like what you could call Heaven? A place where there is only peace, one is always strong and healthy, no hatred, no dishonesty, no filth etc.

                You are what you create! God is only good and thus cannot create anything that isn’t good. It is known that existence is full of many infirmities and rubbish. Who created those? Definitely not God! This therefore means that humans are actually all the sin, evil, bad, wrong, flaws etc in existence. Yes, there is a human out there who embodies bad breath, initials: BB = Barry Borden, who embodies body odor, initials: BO = Benjamin Oliver, who embodies weakness, initials: WN = Winifred Newton etc.

                Good is stronger than evil, therefore God cannot be limited and is already omnipotent and omniscient. He can do absolutely anything good, but there is no such thing as purifying humanity. Making a change to a being means changing identity. Purging humanity would mean deleting the old identity of sin, and somehow creating a new one of purity. That deletion means death. They call it sinner, but that sinner is actually a sin itself!

                The fact that humans die means humanity is not good. Accept it. Therefore there’s a higher power ensuring that existence will one day be purified. Too bad no one here will be there!
                The fact that humans die shows that they have all sinned like Adam and Eve did in the garden. Jesus, our Creator, told Adam and Eve in the day that they disobey Him they will surely die. God never intended for death to come to mankind and He preserved the way so that Satan could not force them to decide against their Creator. Yet through Satans deceptions Eve, and then Adam chose to disobey Jesus and death came into the world. Now through the second Adam, Jesus of Nazareth, the way back to everlasting life (Romans 6;23) has been opened and it is available to all mankind who will choose this path. Most will not choose to follow Jesus, but a remnant will do it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
                  The fact that humans die shows that they have all sinned like Adam and Eve did in the garden.
                  Only from a Christian presuppositional position,
                  Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
                  Jesus, our Creator, told Adam and Eve in the day that they disobey Him they will surely die. God never intended for death to come to mankind and He preserved the way so that Satan could not force them to decide against their Creator. Yet through Satans deceptions Eve, and then Adam chose to disobey Jesus and death came into the world. Now through the second Adam, Jesus of Nazareth, the way back to everlasting life (Romans 6;23) has been opened and it is available to all mankind who will choose this path. Most will not choose to follow Jesus, but a remnant will do it.
                  This op uses the word "proof."

                  It does not use the word "evidence," nor does the op argue its position solely from the Judeo-Christian paradigm. Evidence and proof ar two entirely different words and conditions. Furthermore, this op asks if death is proof of an Infinite. In other words, it makes the mistake of insinuating a finite condition will prove the existence of an Infinite, which is logically impossible. If God''s existence could be proven by the finite that god would cease to be God. If God's exitence could be proven then faith would be unnecessary.

                  So the entire discussion should be framed in the language of "What evidences the existence of God?" or "Does death evidence the existence of God?"

                  The Bible itslef speaks of this and it asserts this distinct in examples like Romans 1 where Paul asserts nature testifies about God and His power. Knowing God and knowing about God are two entirely different conditions. We aren't saved because we know about God; we are saved because we know and are known by God.



                  Everyone looks at exactly the same evidence. The theist and the nontheist look at exactly the same evidence but we reach different conclusions because 1) of our pre-existing biases and 2) because God opens the eyes of some and blinds others.


                  For the atheist, especially those who imagine themselves strict materialists, death is just death and just death is simply and solely the cessation of bio-electric impulses in the pile of organic molecules known as a human. Death doesn't "show" anything.
                  All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                  “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                    Only from a Christian presuppositional position,

                    This op uses the word "proof."

                    It does not use the word "evidence," nor does the op argue its position solely from the Judeo-Christian paradigm. Evidence and proof ar two entirely different words and conditions. Furthermore, this op asks if death is proof of an Infinite. In other words, it makes the mistake of insinuating a finite condition will prove the existence of an Infinite, which is logically impossible. If God''s existence could be proven by the finite that god would cease to be God. If God's exitence could be proven then faith would be unnecessary.

                    So the entire discussion should be framed in the language of "What evidences the existence of God?" or "Does death evidence the existence of God?"

                    The Bible itslef speaks of this and it asserts this distinct in examples like Romans 1 where Paul asserts nature testifies about God and His power. Knowing God and knowing about God are two entirely different conditions. We aren't saved because we know about God; we are saved because we know and are known by God.



                    Everyone looks at exactly the same evidence. The theist and the nontheist look at exactly the same evidence but we reach different conclusions because 1) of our pre-existing biases and 2) because God opens the eyes of some and blinds others.


                    For the atheist, especially those who imagine themselves strict materialists, death is just death and just death is simply and solely the cessation of bio-electric impulses in the pile of organic molecules known as a human. Death doesn't "show" anything.
                    All of what the Bible says is to be taken by faith, not by sight.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
                      All of what the Bible says is to be taken by faith, not by sight.
                      I completely agree.


                      Now connect that to the op's expectation of proof.


                      Or agree with me faith precludes demands for proof among those without faith and even among those with faith it is only evidence, not proof. As Hebrews 11:1 puts it, faith is assurance, not proof. Remember the inquiry of this op: Is death proof of God's existence? The obvious answer is "No." The more detailed answered addresses the specific presuppositional beliefs and position from which this inquiry is asked.

                      Have you read any Francis Schaeffer, Greg? or maybe Nancy Pearcey? Are you familiar with Schaeffer's exposition on post-modernism's "two-tiered" epistemology that separate revelation from scientific fact? Very informative and, imo, necessary for garnering a Christian worldview that permeates all aspects of human existence. I highly recommend the Schaeffer's trilogy. If you ever do read it I'd like to read what you think of it.



                      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        I completely agree.


                        Now connect that to the op's expectation of proof.


                        Or agree with me faith precludes demands for proof among those without faith and even among those with faith it is only evidence, not proof. As Hebrews 11:1 puts it, faith is assurance, not proof. Remember the inquiry of this op: Is death proof of God's existence? The obvious answer is "No." The more detailed answered addresses the specific presuppositional beliefs and position from which this inquiry is asked.

                        Have you read any Francis Schaeffer, Greg? or maybe Nancy Pearcey? Are you familiar with Schaeffer's exposition on post-modernism's "two-tiered" epistemology that separate revelation from scientific fact? Very informative and, imo, necessary for garnering a Christian worldview that permeates all aspects of human existence. I highly recommend the Schaeffer's trilogy. If you ever do read it I'd like to read what you think of it.


                        Death is proof that what God told Adam and Eve is the truth of the matter. In the day that one disobeys God there will be death. Whether one wants to accept the Creation story is a faith testimony for none of us were alive when that testimony was given except God Himself. So when all is said and done we either accept the testimony of Jesus by faith or we reject Him by faith.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
                          Death is proof that what God told Adam and Eve is the truth of the matter. In the day that one disobeys God there will be death. Whether one wants to accept the Creation story is a faith testimony for none of us were alive when that testimony was given except God Himself. So when all is said and done we either accept the testimony of Jesus by faith or we reject Him by faith.
                          As a Christian I completely agree. As an apologist trying to persuade those coming from different paradigms I find the argument worthless. Those who are materialists don't see death as a problem. Those who subscribe to reincarnation see death as just one milestone among many. To them death is proof the or position is correct and they wonder why you have such screwed up notions about death. Yes, in the end the proof is provided but that is irrelevant to this op and any other op that seeks to present death as proof of something doctrinal, and while I am not normally one to argue from the extremes, the examples of Enoch and Elijah are problems for this op. Look closely at the claims of this op.





                          I find there's another problem with this op, one I didn't mention earlier because I didn't want to derail the op. The op doesn't explicitly state what kind of "death" it is to which he's referring but if it is physical death then the op is wholly incorrect because Adam and Eve were created mortal. The death to which God was referring in Genesis 2:17 is not physical death, it is the death of Ephesians 2;1 and Col. 2:13.

                          Adam and Eve were going to die physically whether they ate the forbidden kiwi or not. They were not necessarily going to die transgressionally (most people call this "spiritual death"). We know they were inherently mortal because inherently immortal people cannot die. God's words in Gen. 2:17 would be meaningless to an immortal creature. Note that Genesis 2:17 states, "in the day that you eat..." but Adam and Eve didn't die that day. According to scripture Adam went on to live another 900 years. Some try to get around Gen. 2:17 by saying Adam began to die that day, but 1) that isn't what the verse states, and 2) if Adam was mortal then he began to die the day he was created. God said Adam would die in the day he disobeyed God and that is what happened; he instantly became dead in sin. His heart was pumping blood and his lungs were breathing air and he walked around looking from the outside like no change had occurred, but inside he was no longer good, unashamed, or sinless. He was dead in transgression. Furthermore, immortal creatures don't need a Tree of Life. The existence of the ToL is an implicit statement about their mortality. Lastly, Jesus is the ToL and, according to John, no one can come to the Father but by Christ, who is the resurrection (Jn. 14:6). So if the pre-disobedient Adam was in need of the ToL that is Jesus in order to reach the Father then he was gonna have to die physically whether he died transgressionally or not. The Bible uses the word "death" diversely; not all mentions of death are identical and they should not be conflated. It is a mistake to treat all mentions of death the same.



                          If you physically die sinless you still need Jesus, otherwise Jesus is unnecessary and John 14:6 and 1 Peter 1:20 prove unnecessary (if not false).

                          If you physically die sinful then you are twice-dead and subject to the second death of the fiery lake.

                          If you physically die having also died transgressionally but have also died in Christ, then there is no second death in the fiery lake and you are transformed into incorruptibility and immortality.




                          That is proof of God's existence, and it is by faith we are assured of this.
                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                            The death to which God was referring in Genesis 2:17 is not physical death, it is the death of Ephesians 2;1 and Col. 2:13..
                            Precisely! This is something so many miss ... and so critical to a proper understanding of many Scriptural passages.
                            Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. [NIV]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Trucker View Post
                              Precisely! This is something so many miss ... and so critical to a proper understanding of many Scriptural passages.
                              Thanks for the affirmation.

                              Don't know how some construe scripture otherwise.
                              All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                              “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                              Comment

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