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Is All Mankind Under The New Covenant?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post







    Galatians 3:24-25 negates my question, how interesting.

    Not being under a tutor
    doesn't negate the validity of the Old Covenant.


    .


    .
    The old covenant was the tutor. The covenant contained all 613 laws of the covenant. Paul wrote that Jews were no longer under that covenant. Gentiles never were under it. Pretty simple isn't it.
    Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
      Oh! Jesus just broke the barrier for the Christians? For just the Christians Jesus abolished the law? Were not Jews also being formed under that broken barrier
      Jesus broke down the barrier for everyone who has faith and chooses to enter. A person needs to choose to enter; he won’t drag a person in against his will.

      The inner sanctuary represents the dwelling place of God right?

      Recall that God is omnipresent, but He doesn’t dwell everywhere. God dwells in holy places, and the person governed by the flesh is not holy.

      Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

      So then, does the spirit of God dwell in everyman? And if not, why would we describe all men as being in the most holy place where God dwells?
      And here I thought from reading Jeremiah God was voiding the old law and giving Jews a better law. There were no qualifiers in the prophecy given by Jeremiah. It did not say that until you accept Jesus you will remain under the old covenant. He wrote: It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them,”

      declares the Lord.
      OK, but why are you assuming there is only one possibility here: that the New Covenant means the Old Covenant must be annulled?

      What you are assuming might be a logical conclusion if everyone were automatically placed under the New Covenant by God. I wouldn’t use the word “annul” but it would be universally superseded.

      However, I don’t believe the Bible teaches that all men are automatically placed under the New Covenant; though that option is available to all who have faith and choose to enter.

      If what I am suggesting were to be the case, would you recognize that another possibility exists: that the New Covenant is available for those who choose to enter it and the Old Covenant exists and applies to those who choose to remain under the Old?

      What power does a broken covenant have? A broken covenant is no covenant. How could the Jews still be under the old covenant when it no longer existed. It had been broken. Only when the new covenant was ratified were Jews and gentiles alike under the everlasting covenant.
      I don’t believe it lost its power over those under it. The curses and blessings of the Law are/were still valid after Christ’s death to those under the Law. Those curses and blessings affect the present life. On a moral basis, they would be obligated to obey it as well.

      Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.”

      Gal 5: 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.


      It is there waiting for everyone. It is the everlasting covenant governing every living soul.
      I agree that it is there waiting for everyone, but people must have faith and choose to enter. I would argue that the NC is not governing every living soul.

      The NC is summarized:

      Heb 10: 16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
      17 He then says, “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

      Note that if one is under the New Covenant he has God’s Laws written upon his heart and mind. That is a main clause in the covenant. So then how can people “in the flesh” who are not subject to God’s law in their minds be subject to the New Covenant? It would contradict the covenant:

      Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post

        The old covenant was the tutor. The covenant contained all 613 laws of the covenant. Paul wrote that Jews were no longer under that covenant. Gentiles never were under it. Pretty simple isn't it.
        “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.
        I did not come to destroy but to fulfil.
        For assuredly, I say to you,
        till heaven and earth pass away,
        one jot or one tittle will by no means
        pass from the law till all is fulfilled
        - Matthew 5:17-18

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by B Student View Post


          The NC is summarized:

          Heb 10: 16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
          17 He then says, “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”


          Caught quoting nonsense again.

          I will put My laws in their mind (Heb 8:10).

          be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove
          what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
          (Ro 12:2).

          Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days
          oracle of the LORD: I will put my instruction in the midst of them,
          and upon their heart I will write it. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

          [Keown, G. L. (1998). Word Biblical Commentary]

          I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts (Je 31:33 NRSV).
          I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart (Je 31:33 DR).
          I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts (Je 31:33 KJV).
          I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts (Je 31:33 NAB).


          .





          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Conqueror View Post

            Caught quoting nonsense again.

            I will put My laws in their mind (Heb 8:10).

            be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove
            what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
            (Ro 12:2).

            Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days
            oracle of the LORD: I will put my instruction in the midst of them,
            and upon their heart I will write it. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

            [Keown, G. L. (1998). Word Biblical Commentary]

            I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts (Je 31:33 NRSV).
            I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart (Je 31:33 DR).
            I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts (Je 31:33 KJV).
            I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts (Je 31:33 NAB).


            .

            The writer to the Hebrews is quoting the Septuagint:

            Jer 31: 33 For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

            Is there something wrong with that?

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by B Student View Post



              The NC is summarized:

              Heb 10: 16 “THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
              17 He then says, “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

              Originally posted by B Student View Post

              The writer to the Hebrews is quoting the Septuagint:

              Jer 31: 33 For this is my covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put my laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

              Is there something wrong with that?
              First you stated that it was the NEW COVENANT.
              but failed to realise that it was a covenant with the Israelites.

              Another thing is that you quoted,
              that God wrote it on their minds (Heb 10:8, Jer 31. 33).

              I have already proven in the explanation above #19,
              that this is a wrong translation,
              which is repeated by the author of Hebrews, who lacks understanding.

              Are you equipped to deal with this?



              .

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Conqueror View Post




                First you stated that it was the NEW COVENANT.
                but failed to realise that it was a covenant with the Israelites.

                Another thing is that you quoted,
                that God wrote it on their minds (Heb 10:8, Jer 31. 33).

                I have already proven in the explanation above #19,
                that this is a wrong translation,
                which is repeated by the author of Hebrews, who lacks understanding.

                Are you equipped to deal with this?

                .
                That is the New Covenant as per Hebrew 8:

                “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
                [f]When I will effect a new covenant
                With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
                9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
                On the day when I took them by the hand
                To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
                For they did not continue in My covenant,
                And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
                10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
                After those days, says the Lord:
                [g]I will put My laws into their minds,
                And I will write them on their hearts.
                And I will be their God,
                And they shall be My people.
                11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
                And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
                For all will know Me,
                From [h]the least to the greatest of them.
                12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
                And I will remember their sins no more.”


                I understand that it's a Covenant with Israel.
                The New Covenant is with the seed of Abraham.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


                  First you stated that it was the NEW COVENANT.
                  but failed to realise that it was a covenant with the Israelites.

                  Another thing is that you quoted,
                  that God wrote it on their minds (Heb 10:8, Jer 31. 33).

                  I have already proven in the explanation above #19,
                  that this is a wrong translation,
                  which is repeated by the author of Hebrews, who lacks understanding.

                  Are you equipped to deal with this?

                  Originally posted by B Student View Post

                  That is the New Covenant as per Hebrew 8:

                  After those days, says the Lord:
                  [g]I will put My laws into their minds,
                  God isn't into mind control.

                  Try a better translation.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post


                    God isn't into mind control.

                    Try a better translation.
                    The writer to the Hebrews quoted from the Septuagint of Jeremiah.

                    Was it wrong for the NT writers to quote from the Septuagint?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by B Student View Post

                      The writer to the Hebrews quoted from the Septuagint of Jeremiah.

                      Was it wrong for the NT writers to quote from the Septuagint?
                      Not many of the New Testament writers were fluent in Hebrew nor Aramaic.

                      Our advantage is that we have the OT Scriptures translated into our native languages, along with many language research books available to us.
                      I always check OT quotations in the NT back to their source. A good example of doing this is Heb 2:7-8:

                      Heb 2:7-8
                      7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor 8 and put everything under his feet."
                      NIV

                      Ps 8:5
                      5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!
                      NASU

                      Angels are not God.
                      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Conqueror View Post



                        God isn't into mind control.

                        Try a better translation.

                        Originally posted by B Student View Post

                        The writer to the Hebrews quoted from the Septuagint of Jeremiah.

                        Was it wrong for the NT writers to quote from the Septuagint?
                        Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days
                        oracle of the LORD: I will put my instruction in the midst of them,
                        and upon their heart I will write it. I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

                        [Keown, G. L. (1998). Word Biblical Commentary]

                        I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts (Je 31:33 NRSV).
                        I will give my law in their bowels, and I will write it in their heart (Je 31:33 DR).
                        I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts (Je 31:33 KJV).
                        I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts (Je 31:33 NAB).

                        The Lord doesn't write on anyone's mind (Rom 12:2)


                        .

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                          I always check OT quotations in the NT back to their source. A good example of doing this is Heb 2:7-8:

                          Heb 2:7-8
                          7 You made him a little lower than the angels; you crowned him with glory and honor 8 and put everything under his feet."
                          NIV

                          Ps 8:5
                          5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!
                          NASU

                          Jesus was made a little lower than angels,
                          to thereby loose His status as God.

                          87.68 ἐλαττόω: to cause something to have less status or rank-
                          to cause to be less. ἠλάττωσας αὐτὸν βραχύ τι παῤ ἀγγέλους
                          having caused him to be somewhat less than angels’ He 2:7.
                          [Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996)].


                          Christendom has infallibly declared this to be inerrant
                          and are willing to defend this absurdity with ridicule and abuse.


                          .

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Mr Conqueror

                            Just for clarifications purposes. Do you have the Decalogue Law written in your heart and mind? Or does Jer 31 : 33 apply to Jews and unbelievers only ?

                            I will put my law in their inward parts, And write it in their hearts (Je 31:33 KJV).


                            I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts (Je 31:33 NAB).
                            Last edited by DANNO; 02-14-19, 06:38 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by B Student View Post
                              Jesus broke down the barrier for everyone who has faith and chooses to enter. A person needs to choose to enter; he won’t drag a person in against his will.

                              The inner sanctuary represents the dwelling place of God right?

                              Recall that God is omnipresent, but He doesn’t dwell everywhere. God dwells in holy places, and the person governed by the flesh is not holy.
                              Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

                              So then, does the spirit of God dwell in everyman? And if not, why would we describe all men as being in the most holy place where God dwells?
                              Please tell us how the carnal mind is able to find God? It is fighting against God. Isn't it the Holy Spirit that convicts man of wrong? Read 2Cor3:7-11 again.



                              OK, but why are you assuming there is only one possibility here: that the New Covenant means the Old Covenant must be annulled?
                              Quite simple. Matt 5:17-18 Jesus own words are that He came to fulfill the law. Did He leave something He came to do undone? Remember the word fulfill means to bring to an end. While Jesus was with man He brought to an end the Law. The coincides quite well with all that Paul wrote about the Law.

                              What you are assuming might be a logical conclusion if everyone were automatically placed under the New Covenant by God. I wouldn’t use the word “annul” but it would be universally superseded.
                              There is only one covenant guiding man. One was fulfilled and since Jesus brought it to to closure and ratified the new covenant with His own blood I find it impossible to have two covenants guiding mankind. Where did the second one come from? It only seems possible that all mankind is under the covenant given to all mankind. Come unto Me all of you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest. The door is open for all to come to Jesus new covenant. Until they accept the only covenant available they can not be saved by it, but they are still under it.




                              Blessed are the cracked, for they are the ones who let in the light.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
                                Please tell us how the carnal mind is able to find God? It is fighting against God. Isn't it the Holy Spirit that convicts man of wrong? Read 2Cor3:7-11 again.
                                The carnal “mind” doesn’t find God because it can’t be subject to His laws. The carnal “mind” must be put to death since it is contrary to God’s spirit. i.e. the carnal mindset naturally possessed by mankind must be put to death.

                                Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

                                To belong to Christ is to die to the flesh. That is what baptism represents (Rom 6).


                                Quite simple. Matt 5:17-18 Jesus own words are that He came to fulfill the law. Did He leave something He came to do undone? Remember the word fulfill means to bring to an end. While Jesus was with man He brought to an end the Law. The coincides quite well with all that Paul wrote about the Law.

                                Of several possibilities you chose “end” as the meaning of ‘fulfill’. However I don’t think that meaning fits the passage. Here is an excerpt from Thayer’s lexicon for the word ‘pleroo’:

                                “γ. to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)…. to cause to be everywhere known, acknowledged, embraced (A. V. I have fully preached),
                                c. to carry into effect, bring to realization, realize;
                                α. of matters of duty, to perform, execute
                                β. of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
                                γ. universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17; cf. Weiss, Das Matthäusevang.”

                                So no: he didn’t leave anything undone, but I believe your assumption is wrong regarding what he came to do. His job was not to destroy or “end” the Law as you are suggesting. He came to carry out and obey the Law and the prophets.

                                Neither Christ nor Paul ever state the Mosaic Law was annulled or universally ended, and his writings confirm this. He wrote the Law ends (i.e. its jurisdiction) for the believer in Christ, not for everyone:

                                Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

                                Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

                                So if Christ is the “end” of the Law to everyone under it who believes, what does that imply to those who don’t believe, and are not lead by the spirit?

                                There is only one covenant guiding man. One was fulfilled and since Jesus brought it to to closure and ratified the new covenant with His own blood I find it impossible to have two covenants guiding mankind. Where did the second one come from? It only seems possible that all mankind is under the covenant given to all mankind. Come unto Me all of you that are heavy laden and I will give you rest. The door is open for all to come to Jesus new covenant. Until they accept the only covenant available they can not be saved by it, but they are still under it.

                                You believe that there can be only one covenant mankind can be under, but there is no logical reason that different people can’t be under different covenants; I think we agree that it is the Bible which must guide our understanding of the issue.

                                I think the Bible teaches that if people want life everlasting then they should choose to enter into the New Covenant (which by definition takes them out from under the Old). If people want to seek righteousness by works and receive the temporal blessings and curses of the Law, they can seek to follow the Old Law (which will conclude them under sin).

                                Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;

                                Alternatively, they can reject any of God’s covenants and have no covenant relationship with God.

                                You noted that Christ said “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.” Is Christ’s rest for those who do not choose to “come”? Or for those who choose to “come”?


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