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Is All Mankind Under The New Covenant?

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  • ontheBeam
    started a topic Is All Mankind Under The New Covenant?

    Is All Mankind Under The New Covenant?

    I have had an ongoing debate with B Student on the SDA forum concerning the New Covenant. We decided to move the discussion to here in order to get different views. SDAs do not seem to want to debate the issue. Both of us are not SDAs and our discussion was derailing a Sabbath debate.

    My belief is that God gave the Sinai covenant to Israel and that covenant ended when the New and better Covenant was ratified by the blood of our Savior at Calvary. B Student has some very good scripture that indicates that Jews that have not accepted Jesus as Messiah are still under the OC. Please join us in understanding the issue. You can get the gist of the debate at https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/ch...-a-sabbatarian

    B Student wrote:
    I’m not arguing that it was God’s purpose for people to stay under the Law, or be justified by the Law. It was the sad reality that people chose to reject Christ and stay under the Law. That is what Paul is saying. Paul’s comments do not say that the Law was annulled or destroyed; only that it had already served its intended purpose.

    There are qualifiers that tell us it is through the walk of faith and obedience to God that one could leave the Law behind.

    Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

    Notice the qualification, IF you are led by the Spirit you are not under the Law.
    And if they weren’t led by the spirit what were the Jews under? What would be your answer?

    Regarding questions from your last post, I thought I had addressed everything.

    You brought up the past tenses from Galatians 3.
    My answer is that there is a good reason they are in the past tense and it’s because he is addressing baptized believers who already passed through the cross of Christ, being buried with him and joined to the one body – the church.
    He was not addressing the Jewish non-believer who wasn’t part of the church and wasn’t part of the ONE body of Christ, so I don’t see how you can apply any of these verses to your theory.

    It’s not like Paul in Ephesians 2 said: “he’s broken down the middle wall of partition and made the whole world into one body in Christ”. He specifically addresses members of the church i.e. the One Body:

    And in Gal 3 he is talking to of the church who already believe:

    Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed….25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

    Before faith came THE BELIEVER was kept under the Law. Now that faith has come THE BELIEVER is no longer under the tutor. Why do you assume Paul is addressing non-believers with these comments (i.e. saying the Jewish non-believer was released from the Law) when the context of the letter is specific to the believer?
    My answer to B Student is that the Galatians were never under the law, they are gentiles. Paul, in the middle of chapter 3, changed from referring to gentiles and began writing about Jews. Starting with verse 10 10For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, Jews and gentiles like the foolish Galatians who had espoused Jewish beliefs. Further down Paul is telling us that Jesus redeemed the Jews from the law. 14 He redeemed us (Paul and all Jews) in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

    So, in verse 19 where Paul writes that after Jesus came we (Jews) are no longer under the law. It was added for the Israelites UNTIL.

    19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

    My contention is that every living souls is under the NC, B Student's contention is that Jews who have not accepted Jesus is not under the NC until they accept Him as Messiah. I have referred B to verses like Eph2:15, 2Cor 3:7-11 and Matt 5:17-18. In Matt 5:17-18 Jesus uses the word fulfill. Fulfill means to bring to an end. He came to bring the law to an end. Jesus is God. Does God leave anything undone? Paul wrote in 2Cor 3 that the 10 commandments are done away. In Eph, he wrote: 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace

  • B Student
    replied
    OTB,
    Thanks for your kind thoughts.
    God Bless and thanks for the discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • ontheBeam
    replied
    Originally posted by B Student View Post
    This is going nowhere and I think we are both wasting our time with one another on this subject.
    I'm doing both of us a favour and ending the discussion.
    So be it B. When we get to Heaven we can meet and find out what the real truth is from the One who planned the plan of salvation. I really did enjoy our debate. God bless you and yours.

    Leave a comment:


  • B Student
    replied
    This is going nowhere and I think we are both wasting our time with one another on this subject.
    I'm doing both of us a favour and ending the discussion.

    Leave a comment:


  • ontheBeam
    replied
    Originally posted by B Student View Post

    I disagree with you on verse 19. It does not say unbelieving Jews were not under the Law. It says the intended purpose of the Law had been served. We have already discussed this in detail.
    They are under the law alright, the one given to Adam, the one that caused the first death, the same one we are under. Observing the the Sinai covenant couldn't keep the Israelites from the first death. It was not meant for that purpose. It had no power to save Israelites from the second death either. It could point out some sins and it was the governing Laws of the land, but it was clearly limited in what it could do as far as their eternal life. After the Sinai covenant ceased or ended Israelites are under the new covenant promised to them by Jeremiah. Why is that so hard to understand. If they do not turn from the knocking of the Holy Spirit and allow Him to guide them to Jesus they too will avoid the second death. As was Abraham all mankind is and was saved by faith.

    The purpose of the Sinai covenant ceased at its termination. Its purpose was to make Canaan a great nation and a Holy nation. Had the Israelites not broken the covenant they would still all be in God's favor in the Land of Milk and Honey. God knew before the foundation of the Earth that Adam would fail and His special people would fail with the special covenant. A Savior was the only way for man to escape the second death.

    The “you” “us” and “we” in Galatians are the believing Jews. If we ignore that then we arrive at wrong conclusions. Context is important. That includes those pronouns in verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 and 29.
    That is not in the least way correct. The "believing" Jews really were not believing. Why do you think Paul started his writing of Gal 3 with Your foolish Galatians. The Jews had put them under the Law that Jesus came to remove. The Jews teachings removed the Galatians faith in Jesus. They undid all the work Paul had started.

    So when Paul says “now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” he is talking about the Jewish believers in the ecclesia. He is not talking about all Jews including unbelievers as you are suggesting.
    I suggest that you restudy Gal 3 and what I wrote above.



    Been over that…. I think that is a wrong assumption. Israel did not annul the law simply because rules were broken.
    It was a covenant they broke. If I have a covenant with another party and I disobey that covenant the covenant becomes void unless the other party agrees to forgive my breaking it. It is the other parties choice. In the case of the Israelites and God, God gave Jeremiah the heads up. The prophecy explained that a new covenant would replace the old broken one.

    Just like the Law of nations isn’t annulled when people break the law and go to jail. I've provided verses to back that up.
    Strawman argument B. The laws of our land are not a covenant relationship like the "IF" covenant between Israel and God.



    You are cutting faith out of the verse. It reads: Now that FAITH has come we (the Jewish believers in the ecclesia) are no longer under a guardian.

    The “we” does not refer to every Jew on the planet, That would be out of the context.
    All you can do or have done is to assume. I have not assumed anything. My responses are backed up with undeniable scripture that you intern assume is is saying something it isn't.

    [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]

    I don’t think that is relevant; I agree the Law holds power over a man (along with blessings and curses) only as long as he lives.
    I never suggested the Laws curses and blessings referred to eternal life. They refer to this life, and the Jews under it had a moral obligation to obey the Law they were under.

    OK, so forgiveness of sins is part of the New Covenant, but according to you not everyone under the New Covenant receives that forgiveness.
    Absolutely, we have our part to do.

    Notice that all the clauses in Heb 8:10-12 are provided for by God, including forgiveness of sins. Man is providing none of the clauses.

    So why then would somebody under the power of the New Covenant not receive forgiveness?

    Where do you read that someone specifically under the New Covenant will not receive forgiveness?
    I stand at the door and knock.......Jesus is not forcing anyone to accept the covenant of Grace and Love. We are free to choose life everlasting or the consequences of not having our sins forgiven. Abraham had that choice, he chose life.

    If your analysis of the new covenant would be correct then man would not have to stand before God in the judgment Would he?



    Leave a comment:


  • B Student
    replied
    Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
    B are you reading my posts and digesting them? I am beginning to believe you haven't because I indicated in Gal 3 that Paul went from addressing the gentile Galatians specifically to writing about Jews. Why he did this I suppose it was to tell the Galatians that the Jews that were trying to judaize the Galatians were no longer under Torah law themselves. Gentiles were never under the law. It was after verse 9 that he started writing about Jews. In verse 19 he writes that when Jesus came that Jews were no longer under the law. After Jesus came the law was only a tutor to lead Jews to Christ, but now since Jews have faith they are no longer under the tutor

    I disagree with you on verse 19. It does not say unbelieving Jews were not under the Law. It says the intended purpose of the Law had been served. We have already discussed this in detail.

    The “you” “us” and “we” in Galatians are the believing Jews. If we ignore that then we arrive at wrong conclusions. Context is important. That includes those pronouns in verses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 13, 14, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27 and 29.

    So when Paul says “now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” he is talking about the Jewish believers in the ecclesia. He is not talking about all Jews including unbelievers as you are suggesting.


    Why would Jesus come to abolish the law? Israel broke the covenant so there was actually no law to abolish. Jews did a great job destroying the Law. If what you say is correct then since Jesus put in his words not on jot or one tittle has passed from the law, sacrifice should be made along with all the rest of the rituals Israel was under.
    Been over that…. I think that is a wrong assumption. Israel did not annul the law simply because rules were broken.

    Just like the Law of nations isn’t annulled when people break the law and go to jail. I've provided verses to back that up.

    Not in the least. Jesus is the one and only one that we can put our faith in that will give us eternal life. When Jesus came Jews were no longer under the law.
    You are cutting faith out of the verse. It reads: Now that FAITH has come we (the Jewish believers in the ecclesia) are no longer under a guardian.

    The “we” does not refer to every Jew on the planet, That would be out of the context.


    No problem, Jesus new covenant is available to all. Jn 5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    The law of sin and death was given to Adam and has effected every once living soul. All mankind is subject to it. The Sinai covenant had no power over over God's law to all mankind. Since the new covenant was ratified with Jesus blood it does have the power to save. The Sinai covenant didn't have the power to send Israelites to Hell, it was the law of sin and death given to Adam. There is the simple answer as to why Jews, after the new covenant was ratified, are under it. It gives them the choice of salvation or death under the law of sin and death.

    I don’t think that is relevant; I agree the Law holds power over a man (along with blessings and curses) only as long as he lives.
    I never suggested the Laws curses and blessings referred to eternal life. They refer to this life, and the Jews under it had a moral obligation to obey the Law they were under.

    Again, it is the law that if one sins they cannot escape eternal death. The Sinai covenant with its 613 rules did not have the stipulation or rule that if you are keeping all the laws that pertain to everyone you will have eternal life. It didn't have a law that would end life. Yes, there are instances where God either struck some dead or told His people to put them to death, but if the ones put to death had the same faith that Abraham had they too will have eternal life.
    I disagree. The blessings and curses were for this life only. Everyone under the Law was doomed to die regardless.

    The power of the law ends at fleshly death period.

    People will be judged on the life of faith they lead and how they handled the responsibilities and “talents” given them. Those under the Law had a responsibility to obey it.

    Hold the phone, God is doing the knocking not the other way around. He does it through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is knocking on every door for all mankind to accept the new covenant's eternal life or die under under the penalty that Adam was given and consequently we all are subject to to the first death.
    I misread the ‘knock’ part of that verse, but one still needs to hear is voice and open the door. My point is the same.

    No, I do not agree that everyone would be forgiven. Being under it does not in any way secure forgiveness. Believing in the One who gave all mankind the new covenant is forgiven. God's law to Adam about sin still is here to end this life. Jesus law about believing in Him gives us life again if we believe and love others as He loves us. Pretty simple isn't it. Read 1Jn3:19-24 again. "We know we belong to the truth........"

    OK, so forgiveness of sins is part of the New Covenant, but according to you not everyone under the New Covenant receives that forgiveness.

    Notice that all the clauses in Heb 8:10-12 are provided for by God, including forgiveness of sins. Man is providing none of the clauses.

    So why then would somebody under the power of the New Covenant not receive forgiveness?

    Where do you read that someone specifically under the New Covenant will not receive forgiveness?


    Leave a comment:


  • ontheBeam
    replied
    Originally posted by B Student View Post


    2COr 3:7-11 Does not say the Law was done away with for the unbeliever. The epistle Paul refers to in verse 2 is the ecclesia at Corinth, not the whole world. You will notice that Paul is NOT addressing people under the Law with these comments; please read verses 14-16 which clearly state he is not addressing those under the Law who still have the veil over their hearts.

    Context is very important.

    Everyone in the ecclesia was outside the jurisdiction of Mosaic Law. All of the statements you are trying to use to prove the Law was universally annulled are verses which specifically address the believing community of faith in Christ. Galatians chapter 3 is no different; it speaks to those WHO BELIEVE (e.g. refer to verse 2). Paul wrote:

    Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

    Do you think Paul was addressing Jews who had zero faith in Christ when he said: “now that faith has come we are no longer under the Law”? If so, it goes against the entire context of the chapter.
    B are you reading my posts and digesting them? I am beginning to believe you haven't because I indicated in Gal 3 that Paul went from addressing the gentile Galatians specifically to writing about Jews. Why he did this I suppose it was to tell the Galatians that the Jews that were trying to judaize the Galatians were no longer under Torah law themselves. Gentiles were never under the law. It was after verse 9 that he started writing about Jews. In verse 19 he writes that when Jesus came that Jews were no longer under the law. After Jesus came the law was only a tutor to lead Jews to Christ, but now since Jews have faith they are no longer under the tutor


    He ended the work he came to do. He did not come to destroy and abolish the Law, as he clearly stated in Matthew 5. He came to lead the faithful into a New Covenant applicable exclusively to those who believe in Christ and have died to the flesh and put Christ on.
    Why would Jesus come to abolish the law? Israel broke the covenant so there was actually no law to abolish. Jews did a great job destroying the Law. If what you say is correct then since Jesus put in his words not on jot or one tittle has passed from the law, sacrifice should be made along with all the rest of the rituals Israel was under.

    Rom 6:6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin.





    Sure it is:
    What is it?

    Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian

    You seem keen to cut “faith” out of the equation.
    Not in the least. Jesus is the one and only one that we can put our faith in that will give us eternal life. When Jesus came Jews were no longer under the law.

    Problem: you are taking away from Paul’s words. He wrote: Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
    No problem, Jesus new covenant is available to all. Jn 5:24 24 ‘Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    The law of sin and death was given to Adam and has effected every once living soul. All mankind is subject to it. The Sinai covenant had no power over over God's law to all mankind. Since the new covenant was ratified with Jesus blood it does have the power to save. The Sinai covenant didn't have the power to send Israelites to Hell, it was the law of sin and death given to Adam. There is the simple answer as to why Jews, after the new covenant was ratified, are under it. It gives them the choice of salvation or death under the law of sin and death.

    What you are implying is that Paul didn’t need to write that last clause because there are no qualifications for an end to the jurisdiction of the Law. Paul contradicts that theory by adding a condition.
    Again, it is the law that if one sins they cannot escape eternal death. The Sinai covenant with its 613 rules did not have the stipulation or rule that if you are keeping all the laws that pertain to everyone you will have eternal life. It didn't have a law that would end life. Yes, there are instances where God either struck some dead or told His people to put them to death, but if the ones put to death had the same faith that Abraham had they too will have eternal life.



    While I agree that there is no other way to eternal life, Rev 3:20 clearly tells us that people need to “knock”, “hear his voice” and “open the door”.
    Hold the phone, God is doing the knocking not the other way around. He does it through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is knocking on every door for all mankind to accept the new covenant's eternal life or die under under the penalty that Adam was given and consequently we all are subject to to the first death.

    Question for you:
    If everyone were under the New Covenant, then everyone would be forgiven their sins. Do you agree or disagree?
    No, I do not agree that everyone would be forgiven. Being under it does not in any way secure forgiveness. Believing in the One who gave all mankind the new covenant is forgiven. God's law to Adam about sin still is here to end this life. Jesus law about believing in Him gives us life again if we believe and love others as He loves us. Pretty simple isn't it. Read 1Jn3:19-24 again. "We know we belong to the truth........"

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Except that you never "Refuted" anything.
    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Does ANYBODY REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW IT ALL WORKS??

    No.

    SImple as that.
    An inconsistent and therefore self-refuting witness.



    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Carabbio
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
    That abuse doesn't deal with the claims you made and were refuted.
    Except that you never "Refuted" anything.

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Absolutely, since the OLD Covenant has been Superceded the Covenant in Jesus' blood, there only is ONE COVENANT in effect.

    And, of course, God's LAW is still completely in effect to condemn those who refuse Jesus as Savior.

    Another oxymoron.

    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Apparently your "Angel of Light" has no idea of the relationship between the NEW COVENANT, and the eternal LAW.

    You should really ask him to Read the Bible, and "get on board" with it, before you let him/her/it advise you, 'ol buddy..
    That abuse doesn't deal with the claims you made and were refuted.


    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Carabbio
    replied
    Originally posted by Conqueror View Post
    Another oxymoron.
    Apparently your "Angel of Light" has no idea of the relationship between the NEW COVENANT, and the eternal LAW.

    You should really ask him to Read the Bible, and "get on board" with it, before you let him/her/it advise you, 'ol buddy..

    Leave a comment:


  • Conqueror
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

    Absolutely, since the OLD Covenant has been Superceded the Covenant in Jesus' blood, there only is ONE COVENANT in effect.

    And, of course, God's LAW is still completely in effect to condemn those who refuse Jesus as Savior.
    Another oxymoron.


    .


    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Carabbio
    replied
    Originally posted by ontheBeam View Post
    Is All Mankind Under The New Covenant?
    Absolutely, since the OLD Covenant has been Superceded the Covenant in Jesus' blood, there only is ONE COVENANT in effect.

    And, of course, God's LAW is still completely in effect to condemn those who refuse Jesus as Savior.

    Leave a comment:


  • Greg Goodchild
    replied
    On the Beam replied:
    Amen Greg.

    Thank you On the Beam.

    Leave a comment:


  • ontheBeam
    replied
    Originally posted by Greg Goodchild View Post
    No one has ever been saved by the law. The law is a teacher to point us away from sin, and to Jesus, our Creator and our Savior. We are saved by grace, and when that grace enters into us and we agree with Jesus, then we enter into the everlasting covenant that God prepared for us before He even created the worlds. All mankind has access to this covenant, sometimes called the new covenant, but not all mankind will choose to accept the conditions of the covenant and will not allow Jesus to heal their hearts by giving them a new heart. But the covenant is always available for Jesus took all of the sins of the world to Calvary and prepared the way for every sinner on this planet to be saved if they will choose to accept this holy gift.
    Amen Greg.

    Leave a comment:

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