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Did Men Receive Eternal Life Prior to the Cross?

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  • Did Men Receive Eternal Life Prior to the Cross?

    A popular belief is that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back. I would suggest that no man received Eternal Life until God reconciled mankind unto Himself and began something brand new...immersing believers into Himself in Eternal Union.

    Was any man in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was Jew and Gentile one in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was any man reconciled to God prior to the Cross?

    I will start this conversation with one verse to support that Eternal Life did not begin until the Cross:


    John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


    God bless.
    The Holiness of God is traumatic to unholy people (R.C. Sproul).

  • #2
    Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
    A popular belief is that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back.
    What Adam and Eve had in terms of "eternal physical life" isn't known, and totally unimportant anyway, since God knew that they'd die spiritually as soon as he was given the chance to do so and that their PHYSICAL bodies would undergo physical deterioration.

    Apparently, Adam AFTER the fall could have eaten of the "Tree of life" and lived forever, which God immediately protected against by tossing them OUT of the Garden where that tree was.

    We aren't "TRYING" to get anything back, and wouldn't be capable of doing anything about it anyway.

    God, knowing was was going to go down from before creation, had already engineered the WAY for us to enter eternal life by faith (which HE would give us) in Jesus' SIN OFFERING that cleanses from SIN.

    John 3:16 is in the context of "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". So assuming that Babies, as innocents, are NOT damned when they die / are murdered in the womb, we HAD eternal life, but as soon as we figured out to rebel, and LOSE IT, we all did. I expect to meet Angeline (our first who didn't make it) as she is on the other side -

    Simple as that.
    Last edited by Bob Carabbio; 04-17-19, 11:41 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
      A popular belief is that Adam had eternal life, lost it, and now we are trying to get it back. I would suggest that no man received Eternal Life until God reconciled mankind unto Himself and began something brand new...immersing believers into Himself in Eternal Union.

      Was any man in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was Jew and Gentile one in Christ prior to Pentecost? Was any man reconciled to God prior to the Cross?

      I will start this conversation with one verse to support that Eternal Life did not begin until the Cross:


      John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

      16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


      God bless.
      At this point in time, no man has been raised to eternal life except Jesus. The last trump has not sounded and the resurrection has not occurred.

      That being said, the gospel was preached to men for a long long long time before Christ went to the cross.
      Galatians 3
      7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
      Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

      Comment


      • #4

        Originally posted by StephenC View Post

        At this point in time, no man has been raised to eternal life except Jesus. The last trump has not sounded and the resurrection has not occurred.

        That being said, the gospel was preached to men for a long long long time before Christ went to the cross.
        Galatians 3
        7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
        It is true that no man has been glorified, which is the completion of our Eternal salvation physically, but those who are born again and immersed into God (baptized into Christ) have received eternal life:


        1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)

        13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


        As far as men being born again prior to Pentecost, I would suggest to you that no-one was born again until Pentecost, when men received Eternal Life by reason of their immersion into God and His Eternal Indwelling. I would love to have you join the discussion in a thread relevant to the specific issue of whether men were regenerated in the Old Testament Eras:

        Here is a thread dealing with that.

        But if you want to thresh it out in this thread that is okay as well, because REgeneration is relevant to whether men received eternal life in the Old Testament, and if we can see that men were not born again then, and that being born again is receiving Eternal life, then we can answer the question of the OP.

        In the verse above we see that Scripture-not Abraham-foresaw that God would justify Gentiles by faith, and secondly...it is a future event and only a promise at that time. The Justification in view is not the Justification which is temporal, as Abraham enjoyed during his lifetime (which secured his eternal destiny) which was based on what he did, but that which is eternal and based on what Christ did at the Cross and through His Resurrection.

        Regeneration is the receiving of life we were not born with, hence...we are born again, and this time of God. Nicodemus asks how a man can be born from above (of God) and born of the Spirit (of God) and Christ responds thus...


        John 3:9, 14-16 King James Version (KJV)

        9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?


        14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

        15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

        16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


        Christ had to die in order for men to receive the life (eternal) He came to give. We see that His Resurrection is also relevant:


        1 Peter 1:3 King James Version (KJV)

        3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


        One thjing I would also point out at this time is that Adam did not have eternal life, because if he did...he lost it when thrust out of the Garden, and that conflicts with the numerous texts that show that eternal life is in fact everlasting, so losing it would disqualify that life which is lost as "everlasting/eternal."


        God bless.
        The Holiness of God is traumatic to unholy people (R.C. Sproul).

        Comment


        • #5

          Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
          It is true that no man has been glorified, which is the completion of our Eternal salvation physically, but those who are born again and immersed into God (baptized into Christ) have received eternal life:
          One man has been glorified. Christ prayed to be glorified at the last supper and received it after his death and resurrection.

          Most people who have been baptized are dead and thus have not received eternal life to date.


          Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
          As far as men being born again prior to Pentecost, I would suggest to you that no-one was born again until Pentecost, when men received Eternal Life by reason of their immersion into God and His Eternal Indwelling. I would love to have you join the discussion in a thread relevant to the specific issue of whether men were regenerated in the Old Testament Eras:

          Here is a thread dealing with that.
          The available evidence indicates that everybody at the event in Acts has died and are still dead. It cannot be said that they have already received eternal life.

          Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
          But if you want to thresh it out in this thread that is okay as well, because REgeneration is relevant to whether men received eternal life in the Old Testament, and if we can see that men were not born again then, and that being born again is receiving Eternal life, then we can answer the question of the OP.
          Yes, when we are born again of spirit and of water we will have eternal life. That has only happened to Jesus thus far.


          Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
          In the verse above we see that Scripture-not Abraham-foresaw that God would justify Gentiles by faith, and secondly...it is a future event and only a promise at that time. The Justification in view is not the Justification which is temporal, as Abraham enjoyed during his lifetime (which secured his eternal destiny) which was based on what he did, but that which is eternal and based on what Christ did at the Cross and through His Resurrection.
          Yes, the gentiles would be justified by faith, just like Abraham (and everybody else). Christ was justified in this manner.


          Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
          Christ had to die in order for men to receive the life (eternal) He came to give. We see that His Resurrection is also relevant:
          Yes, Christ is God's covenant sacrifice confirming God's covenant with Abraham etc..... Those covenants are the gospel, and the crucified Christ is the testator to the covenant.

          Christ did have to die for men to receive the life eternal, but that is only half of the story. Christ had to rise again for men to have eternal life.

          We are saved by his life (Rom 5:10), for if he had merely died we would still be dead in our sins (1 Cor 15:12-19).
          Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by StephenC View Post

            Originally posted by S.T.Ranger

            It is true that no man has been glorified, which is the completion of our Eternal salvation physically, but those who are born again and immersed into God (baptized into Christ) have received eternal life:

            One man has been glorified. Christ prayed to be glorified at the last supper and received it after his death and resurrection.

            Most people who have been baptized are dead and thus have not received eternal life to date.
            Again...


            1 John 5:13 King James Version (KJV)

            13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


            We receive Eternal Life when we are immersed into God in Eternal Union. We hvae the life Christ came to bring.


            Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)

            2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

            2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

            3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

            4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

            5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)



            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
            As far as men being born again prior to Pentecost, I would suggest to you that no-one was born again until Pentecost, when men received Eternal Life by reason of their immersion into God and His Eternal Indwelling. I would love to have you join the discussion in a thread relevant to the specific issue of whether men were regenerated in the Old Testament Eras:
            The available evidence indicates that everybody at the event in Acts has died and are still dead. It cannot be said that they have already received eternal life.
            It can be said, and is said in numerous places.

            Here are some people who had not received the life of Christ:


            John 6:49-53 King James Version (KJV)

            49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

            50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

            51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

            52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

            53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


            Do you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Christ? What He is speaking of here is believing on His death, for the "Living Bread" and the "True Bread" is His flesh, which refers to His death on the Cross, just as He teaches here...


            John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)

            14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

            15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

            16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


            Believing on Christ brings about the condition of having eternal life, and those who do will not perish.



            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
            But if you want to thresh it out in this thread that is okay as well, because Regeneration is relevant to whether men received eternal life in the Old Testament, and if we can see that men were not born again then, and that being born again is receiving Eternal life, then we can answer the question of the OP.
            Yes, when we are born again of spirit and of water we will have eternal life. That has only happened to Jesus thus far.
            Jesus Christ is The Baptizer:


            Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

            11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

            12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


            There is a difference between The Baptizer and those who are baptized of Him.


            Galatians 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)

            26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

            27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

            28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


            When we are baptized into Christ we become children of God. The reason is due to being born of God:


            John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

            11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

            12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

            13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


            This clearly shows men have already been born of God through believing on Christ Jesus, which began when Christ came, died, arose again, and sent the Promised Spirit.


            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
            Originally posted by S.T. Ranger
            In the verse above we see that Scripture-not Abraham-foresaw that God would justify Gentiles by faith, and secondly...it is a future event and only a promise at that time. The Justification in view is not the Justification which is temporal, as Abraham enjoyed during his lifetime (which secured his eternal destiny) which was based on what he did, but that which is eternal and based on what Christ did at the Cross and through His Resurrection.
            Yes, the gentiles would be justified by faith, just like Abraham (and everybody else). Christ was justified in this manner.
            You are confusing Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. Christ was not justified according to the justification foreseen concerning Gentiles, He is the Justifier:


            Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

            24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

            25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

            26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
            Christ had to die in order for men to receive the life (eternal) He came to give. We see that His Resurrection is also relevant:
            Yes, Christ is God's covenant sacrifice confirming God's covenant with Abraham etc..... Those covenants are the gospel,
            Christ's Sacrifice does confirm the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant, but not the covenant itself. His Sacrifice confirms the New Covenant:


            Hebrews 9:12-15 King James Version (KJV)

            12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

            13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

            14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

            15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


            We have received the promise of eternal inheritance. Not as it was promised in the Old Testament, but in the sense of having received what the Old Testament Saints did not:


            Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

            13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            and the crucified Christ is the testator to the covenant.
            Agreed.


            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            Christ did have to die for men to receive the life eternal, but that is only half of the story. Christ had to rise again for men to have eternal life.
            Correct. I made that point in the last post.


            Originally posted by StephenC View Post
            We are saved by his life (Rom 5:10), for if he had merely died we would still be dead in our sins (1 Cor 15:12-19).
            And we are not dead in our sins, but have been made alive in Christ:

            Ephesians 2 King James Version (KJV)

            2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


            4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

            5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)


            God bless.
            Last edited by S.T.Ranger; 04-20-19, 01:47 PM.
            The Holiness of God is traumatic to unholy people (R.C. Sproul).

            Comment


            • #7

              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              We receive Eternal Life when we are immersed into God in Eternal Union. We hvae the life Christ came to bring.
              The scripture quotations didn't deal with the readily observable fact that the graves are still full, unlike Christ's tomb.


              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              It can be said, and is said in numerous places.

              Here are some people who had not received the life of Christ:.....

              Do you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Christ? What He is speaking of here is believing on His death, for the "Living Bread" and the "True Bread" is His flesh, which refers to His death on the Cross, just as He teaches here...

              Believing on Christ brings about the condition of having eternal life, and those who do will not perish.
              At the time Paul wrote 1st Corinthians, there are many that Paul called "brothers" that witnessed the risen Christ but were in the grave (1 Cor 15:3-6). These people may have eternal life, but they are currently in the tomb, along with Paul, David, Peter, Abraham, etc..... Their lot is no different than their Old Testament predecessors.


              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              Jesus Christ is The Baptizer:

              Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

              11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
              This prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost. No fire came on me nor anybody I know.

              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              There is a difference between The Baptizer and those who are baptized of Him.

              Galatians 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)

              26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

              27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

              28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


              When we are baptized into Christ we become children of God. The reason is due to being born of God:


              John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

              11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

              12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

              13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


              This clearly shows men have already been born of God through believing on Christ Jesus, which began when Christ came, died, arose again, and sent the Promised Spirit.
              For all those verses cited, none mention spirit as Christ did in his explanation to Nicodemus.

              Rebirth in the spirit is described in 1 Cor 15:35-49 where Paul describes in detail the resurrection.


              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              You are confusing Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. Christ was not justified according to the justification foreseen concerning Gentiles, He is the Justifier:

              Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

              24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

              25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

              26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
              You need to read those verses again. The Justifier of him which believes in Jesus is not Jesus.


              Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
              We have received the promise of eternal inheritance. Not as it was promised in the Old Testament, but in the sense of having received what the Old Testament Saints did not:

              Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

              13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
              I think you have to read that verse again. We, nor any other person baptized into Christ, has recieved what was promised either. We are heirs (Gal 3:29) still, just like all who came before us (except Christ). We have a more sure word, as the testator has come, but that doesn't change the fact that we are in the same boat as all those who have died in faith. In the particular verse listed, the people spoken of were looking for a better country, and God has prepared for them a city (see the next 3 verses). We too seek that city (see Rev 21).
              Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

              Comment


              • #8
                The way we view the universe is different today. The early church did not discuss time as in billions of years. Is eternal life, just the ability to exist for all time, which is finite, or eternity outside of physical existence?

                But eternal/everlasting life needs to be a distinct phenomenon from bodily resurrection. The soul is accepted as being eternal without either a physical body or spiritual body. The soul is not eternal meaning existing from the beginning of current physical time to the end of current time. Each soul begins sometime in the womb. The soul starts in conjunction with physical brain activity (baptism of water). The first birth. What is harder to comprehend is the birth of spirit. Some would say when we become aware of who we are and accountable for our own actions. Some say being born again is accepting the spiritual side of who we are. The soul that stays in sin will die and not enter into eternity at the end of current time. This is the second and final death of the soul, and seemingly the end of existence for them and the current existence as we know it.

                The question though should not be eternal life of the soul, but eternal life of a spiritual body. A literal reading of Genesis, indicates humans were created with both a physical and spiritual body at the beginning. What Adam lost was his spiritual body connecting him with God. IMO those original humans created at the beginning are still alive with both physical and spiritual bodies still intact. They are still engaged in the battle between Satan and the heavenly host in the spiritual sense of existence. However as time went by their offspring were given the opportunity to reject God. They also married into the descendants of Adam. It got to the point though that God gave up on the struggle between what humans wanted and what God wanted. Noah brought the line of Adam into the new world while God destroyed all the descendants of the humans created on the 6th day.

                There were no longer any humans who manifested both a physical and spiritual body on earth. The answer to the question is that after Jesus died on the cross, he descended into the place where there were accepting souls of God's will and plan. They received their spiritual bodies, and went to heaven because Jesus had obeyed God and satisfied God’s requirement a place in heaven for Adam's fallen race. The first bodily resurrection happened after Jesus had finished preparing such a place. The two exceptions seem to be Moses and Elijah who appeared in their physical and spiritual bodies with Jesus in front of the disciples. Who had already been to heaven and returned. IMO, those two will return later and their physical bodies will be killed, thus keeping the principle that all must die because of Adam's disobedience.

                The resurrection of the church itself will not happen in bodily form until the last member is joined. But until that day, our soul if not in body is with Jesus in heaven in spirit. I do not think that souls were all created in heaven before the physical universe began. I do not think they go from body to body until they are perfected. I think that Jesus clearly described there were souls in Abraham's bosom who in life chose to follow and obey God in faith. They just had to wait until Jesus finished God’s plan, which would allow them to go to heaven and connect with their spiritual bodies. Jesus then gave the command after his resurrection to the disciples to gather another body of believers until he returns when that body is completed by human choice. Because we were not given direct access to our spiritual bodies, we are given access to the Holy Spirit of God if we so choose to experience the whole and complete physical experience. This is not a demand for salvation, because few humans are willing to give up that much of their liberty and freedom to their humanity. One still has to accept God's plan in faith. There will also be some who look God in the face and reject God outright even knowing the truth.

                The first death was seperation from God and connection to our spiritual bodies. I think that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that we at some point have a spiritual body born whereby God knows us and there is limited connection in the mind. Having a mind like Christ is being obedient in the thoughts that are of God. When the physical body dies, in Christ we are in heaven. But Paul also stressed there would be a second "bodily" resurrection of all those who are in Christ. It is kind of hard to prove or disprove something that has not happened yet. The point is that both a physical and spiritual body are born, thus not eternal as in always existing. They would be existent until the end of time. Only those in Christ both OT and NT believers will go into the next iteration of the universe.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                  Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                  We receive Eternal Life when we are immersed into God in Eternal Union. We hvae the life Christ came to bring.
                  The scripture quotations didn't deal with the readily observable fact that the graves are still full, unlike Christ's tomb.
                  Eternal Life is not physical, it is spiritual. While our physical bodies will be resurrected, that doesn't change the fact that we receive eternal life when we are reconciled to God and immersed into Him, and He indwells us.


                  Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                  Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                  It can be said, and is said in numerous places.

                  Here are some people who had not received the life of Christ:.....

                  Do you eat of the flesh and drink of the blood of Christ? What He is speaking of here is believing on His death, for the "Living Bread" and the "True Bread" is His flesh, which refers to His death on the Cross, just as He teaches here...

                  Believing on Christ brings about the condition of having eternal life, and those who do will not perish.
                  At the time Paul wrote 1st Corinthians, there are many that Paul called "brothers" that witnessed the risen Christ but were in the grave (1 Cor 15:3-6). These people may have eternal life, but they are currently in the tomb, along with Paul, David, Peter, Abraham, etc..... Their lot is no different than their Old Testament predecessors.
                  Their "lot" is in deed quite different than it was for the Old Testament Saints, who did not go to Heaven until Christ made The Atonement for their sin and reconciled them to God:


                  Hebrews 9:6-9 King James Version (KJV)

                  6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

                  7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

                  8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

                  9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


                  The entrance of men unto God was physical and only a parable (v.9). Christ is the One Who made access to God in Heaven possible:


                  Hebrews 9:23-24 King James Version (KJV)

                  23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

                  24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


                  Hebrews 10:19-20 King James Version (KJV)

                  19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

                  20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


                  No man comes uinto the Father except by Christ, and this based on His death in our stead.

                  Furthermore we see that the Old Testament saints did not receive the Promised Spirit, they were not baptized into Christ, they did not have the Gospel revealed unto them, and they were not made perfect, which in Hebrews means they were not made complete in regards to remission of sins.

                  It's quite evident that we have received, in our lifetime, that which the Old Testament Saints died in faith still awaiting. The Prophets knew that they were speaking of future events:


                  1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)

                  10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

                  11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

                  12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.



                  Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                  Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                  Jesus Christ is The Baptizer:

                  Matthew 3:11-12 King James Version (KJV)

                  11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
                  This prophecy was fulfilled at Pentecost. No fire came on me nor anybody I know.

                  There's a simple reason why: you weren't at Pentecost when He was sent.

                  That Christ is still baptizing men with the Holy Ghost is seen well after Pentecost:



                  Acts 11:11-18 King James Version (KJV)

                  11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

                  12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

                  13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

                  14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

                  15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

                  16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

                  17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

                  18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


                  John the Baptist is teaching of what the Baptizer Christ would do. In view is eternal life and eternal damnation. One will be baptizsed with the holy Ghost (again, immersed into God) or they will be baptized with fire, also performed by Christ, and this is the burning up of the chaff with unquenchable fire, or in other words...they will be immersed into Hell.


                  Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                  Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                  There is a difference between The Baptizer and those who are baptized of Him.

                  Galatians 3:26-28 King James Version (KJV)

                  26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

                  27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

                  28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


                  When we are baptized into Christ we become children of God. The reason is due to being born of God:


                  John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

                  11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

                  12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

                  13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


                  This clearly shows men have already been born of God through believing on Christ Jesus, which began when Christ came, died, arose again, and sent the Promised Spirit.
                  For all those verses cited, none mention spirit as Christ did in his explanation to Nicodemus.

                  Rebirth in the spirit is described in 1 Cor 15:35-49 where Paul describes in detail the resurrection.
                  Being born of the "Spirit" is the same as being born of God. This is the act, and being born again is the reslt.

                  And this...


                  1 Corinthians 15:35-49 King James Version (KJV)

                  35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

                  36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

                  37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

                  38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

                  39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

                  40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

                  41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

                  42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

                  43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

                  44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

                  45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

                  46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

                  47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

                  48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

                  49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.


                  ...is speaking about glorification, not Regeneration.


                  Continued...

                  The Holiness of God is traumatic to unholy people (R.C. Sproul).

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                    Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                    You are confusing Temporal Justification and Eternal Justification. Christ was not justified according to the justification foreseen concerning Gentiles, He is the Justifier:

                    Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

                    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

                    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

                    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
                    You need to read those verses again. The Justifier of him which believes in Jesus is not Jesus.
                    The Justifier is Jesus, lol. You understand that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, right? Secondly, Christ is the Redeemer, and it is through Him that men are justified on an eternal basis. Third...


                    Isaiah 53:11
                    He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


                    ...it's just basic to our understanding of Redemption.

                    Lastly, I would return your attention to the original point. You spoke of Christ being justified, and again I suggest you are confusing temporal justification with eternal justification through Christ, and diminishing Christ at the same time. You said...


                    Originally posted by S.T. Ranger
                    In the verse above we see that Scripture-not Abraham-foresaw that God would justify Gentiles by faith, and secondly...it is a future event and only a promise at that time. The Justification in view is not the Justification which is temporal, as Abraham enjoyed during his lifetime (which secured his eternal destiny) which was based on what he did, but that which is eternal and based on what Christ did at the Cross and through His Resurrection.
                    Yes, the gentiles would be justified by faith, just like Abraham (and everybody else). Christ was justified in this manner.
                    Not only do you fail to understand that Christ is the One Who justifies, thus we must consider that in our understanding of justification, but you also fail to understand the import of the point made in which your response addresses.

                    Abraham was justified, declared righteous, just as Zacharias and Elisabeth are in Luke 1:4-5, but that is not the same as being freely justified by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. So it is not I that need to reread these verses...


                    Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

                    24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

                    25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

                    26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.



                    Originally posted by StephenC View Post
                    Originally posted by S.T.Ranger
                    We have received the promise of eternal inheritance. Not as it was promised in the Old Testament, but in the sense of having received what the Old Testament Saints did not:

                    Hebrews 11:13 King James Version (KJV)

                    13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
                    I think you have to read that verse again. We, nor any other person baptized into Christ, has recieved what was promised either. We are heirs (Gal 3:29) still, just like all who came before us (except Christ). We have a more sure word, as the testator has come, but that doesn't change the fact that we are in the same boat as all those who have died in faith. In the particular verse listed, the people spoken of were looking for a better country, and God has prepared for them a city (see the next 3 verses). We too seek that city (see Rev 21).
                    We have received the promises. Here is an example:


                    John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

                    38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

                    39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


                    Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

                    4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

                    5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


                    The Old Testament Saints did not receive the promise of the Father...


                    Ezekiel 36:24-27 King James Version (KJV)

                    24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

                    25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

                    26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

                    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


                    We have.

                    The indwelling of God is actually how we receive the life Christ came to give. We have eternal life because He Who is Eternal dwells in us and will do so for Eternity. These are the rivers of living water seen above. We could look at all of the promises they did not receive, which we do in our lifetimes (and they at the time of the Cross), and I think it will help you to better understand eternal life..

                    And we are heirs, and have receive that promise as well:


                    Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

                    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


                    This is not referring to receiving the promise as in God giving it for the first time, but as in receiving what was promised:


                    1 Peter 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

                    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

                    4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

                    5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


                    God bless.
                    The Holiness of God is traumatic to unholy people (R.C. Sproul).

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Eternal Life is not physical, it is spiritual. While our physical bodies will be resurrected, that doesn't change the fact that we receive eternal life when we are reconciled to God and immersed into Him, and He indwells us.
                      The bible directly contradicts this. Eternal life comes when our corruptible body is clothed with incorruptibility. We may have received the promise, but we haven't received what was promised.
                      1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Their "lot" is in deed quite different than it was for the Old Testament Saints, who did not go to Heaven until Christ made The Atonement for their sin and reconciled them to God:

                      Hebrews 9:6-9 King James Version (KJV)

                      The entrance of men unto God was physical and only a parable (v.9).
                      And in the parable, only the high priest made it into the most holy place (Lev 16). Jesus is our high priest and has made it into the most holy place. He mediates on our behalf.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Christ is the One Who made access to God in Heaven possible:

                      Hebrews 9:23-24 King James Version (KJV)
                      As verse 24 makes clear, Christ appears in the most holy place on our behalf.


                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      No man comes uinto the Father except by Christ, and this based on His death in our stead.
                      The graveyards full of crosses are tangible proof that Christians still die. Christ absolutely did not die in our place. (good grief, where did you get that from?)


                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Furthermore we see that the Old Testament saints did not receive the Promised Spirit, they were not baptized into Christ, they did not have the Gospel revealed unto them, and they were not made perfect, which in Hebrews means they were not made complete in regards to remission of sins.
                      Almost all of that is wrong.

                      The thing made perfect is our conscious to serve the living God.
                      Hebrews 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9 (which is symbolic for the present age).[d] According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

                      11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
                      Abraham had the gospel preached unto him (Gal 3:8). He preached it to all of his sons. The promise then went to Isaac, then Jacob, then Jacob's sons.


                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      It's quite evident that we have received, in our lifetime, that which the Old Testament Saints died in faith still awaiting. The Prophets knew that they were speaking of future events:

                      1 Peter 1:10-12 King James Version (KJV)
                      Read the context. What was promised is kept somewhere else. It is an inheritance that is waiting.
                      1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you,

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      That Christ is still baptizing men with the Holy Ghost is seen well after Pentecost:

                      Acts 11:11-18 [/B]King James Version (KJV)
                      That was one man. A gentile. An event that hasn't been repeated. I presume all present have died since then.


                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Being born of the "Spirit" is the same as being born of God. This is the act, and being born again is the reslt.
                      If only the bible said such things.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      And this...

                      1 Corinthians 15:35-49 King James Version (KJV)

                      ...is speaking about glorification, not Regeneration.
                      On the contrary, it is speaking about when men receive eternal life, which is the topic of this thread. It says quite plainly in the next few verses when men receive eternal life. Did you even read it?
                      51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      You need to read those verses again. The Justifier of him which believes in Jesus is not Jesus.
                      The Justifier is Jesus, lol. You understand that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh, right?
                      That didn't make any sense. The scripture is clear, the one who justified Jesus is not Jesus.
                      25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Secondly, Christ is the Redeemer, and it is through Him that men are justified on an eternal basis. Third...

                      Isaiah 53:11
                      He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.


                      ...it's just basic to our understanding of Redemption.
                      Yes, Christ is the kinsman redeemer who freed us from slavery. That is what redeemers do as the OT makes plain. In this case Christ freed us from slavery to sin.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      Lastly, I would return your attention to the original point. You spoke of Christ being justified, and again I suggest you are confusing temporal justification with eternal justification through Christ, and diminishing Christ at the same time. You said...

                      Not only do you fail to understand that Christ is the One Who justifies, thus we must consider that in our understanding of justification, but you also fail to understand the import of the point made in which your response addresses.

                      Romans 3:24-26 King James Version (KJV)

                      Abraham was justified, declared righteous, just as Zacharias and Elisabeth are in Luke 1:4-5, but that is not the same as being freely justified by the grace of God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus. So it is not I that need to reread these verses...
                      Contrary to what you just said, flip the page in your bible to Romans 4 and read it. Abraham's justification was not "temporal". His justification by faith is the same as everybody else's and is an example to everybody else.

                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      We have received the promises. Here is an example:

                      John 7:38-39 King James Version (KJV)

                      Acts 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

                      The Old Testament Saints did not receive the promise of the Father...We have.
                      These are specific fulfillments of promises to specific people. Nobody alive today has possession of what was promised.


                      Originally posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
                      And we are heirs, and have receive that promise as well:

                      Hebrews 9:15 King James Version (KJV)

                      This is not referring to receiving the promise as in God giving it for the first time, but as in receiving what was promised:

                      1 Peter 1:3-5 King James Version (KJV)

                      3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
                      Read verse 4 and 5 of the 1 Peter quote. You don't have what was promised, you simply have the promise. What is promised is reserved for you and is kept somewhere. You will take possession of at a future date.
                      Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        They had eternal life, in that they were kept conscious, until the cross. Then they received eternal bodies to be with Christ in heaven. Christ presented all those accepting of the Faith in Abraham's example and promise of the future Christ to God.

                        Jesus said that he would also present the church as one body. Paul said this was the rapture event. Paul also said that we would be immediately in Christ, but only in consciousness, because either we get a spiritual body upon death, or we have to wait for the rapture event.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                          They had eternal life, in that they were kept conscious, until the cross. Then they received eternal bodies to be with Christ in heaven. Christ presented all those accepting of the Faith in Abraham's example and promise of the future Christ to God.
                          In contrast to what you say, the bible talks about saints who are dead and says they are NOT conscious.
                          1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
                          Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                          Jesus said that he would also present the church as one body. Paul said this was the rapture event. Paul also said that we would be immediately in Christ, but only in consciousness, because either we get a spiritual body upon death, or we have to wait for the rapture event.
                          I have no idea where you get this from.
                          Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by StephenC View Post

                            In contrast to what you say, the bible talks about saints who are dead and says they are NOT conscious.
                            1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
                            [LEFT][COLOR=#252C2F][FONT=Helvetica]
                            6 and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died.

                            Fallen asleep means dead, not that death is a period of sleep. But that is the point, either the body of Christ after the resurrection sleeps until the whole body is completed. Or in spirit are in Christ in heaven. The verse you quoted is after the Cross and resurrection.

                            2 Corinthians 5
                            We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven. 2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours. 3 With this around us we will not be found naked. 4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life.5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit. 6 So we are always confident — we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord; 7 for we live by trust, not by what we see. 8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.

                            This is the passage for OT believers.

                            1 Peter 3:
                            18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; 19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits, 20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people — to be specific, eight — were delivered by means of water. 21 This also prefigures what delivers us now, the water of immersion, which is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one’s pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah. 22 He has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities and powers subject to him.

                            At the time of Noah was the point where, hell was prepared, we are not told what happened to those dead before Noah. The Hebrews called the part of hell where believers went Abraham's bosom. Even saints or those with Faith in God could not go to heaven, because Jesus had not accomplished God’s plan until his death on the cross. This was what Jesus meant in preparing a place after physical death. Before the cross, all the spirits were in one place separated by a barrier, the righteous from the wicked.

                            There are two exceptions: Moses and Elijah who appeared in transfigured bodies that shown with the bright light of heaven. IMO, these two will be the two witnesses who will go through a physical death and resurrection. Now if one does not accept a rapture, then no one will be alive, except the 144,000 without dying physically. Or, Paul said those who are alive and remain will be caught up alive.

                            Originally posted by StephenC View Post

                            I have no idea where you get this from.
                            Ephesians 5:
                            25 As for husbands, love your wives, just as the Messiah loved the Messianic Community, indeed, gave himself up on its behalf, 26 in order to set it apart for God, making it clean through immersion in themikveh, so to speak, 27 in order to present the Messianic Community to himself as a bride to be proud of, without a spot, wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without defect.

                            1 Thessalonians 4:15 When we say this, we base it on the Lord’s own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God’s shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise;17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              6 and afterwards he was seen by more than five hundred brothers at one time, the majority of whom are still alive, though some have died.

                              Fallen asleep means dead, not that death is a period of sleep. But that is the point, either the body of Christ after the resurrection sleeps until the whole body is completed. Or in spirit are in Christ in heaven. The verse you quoted is after the Cross and resurrection.
                              And even after Christ's resurrection and ascension, the bible affirms that saints still die and are dead the same way the OT saints did. They are not described as being anywhere but dead. Just like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc....


                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              2 Corinthians 5
                              We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven. 2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours. 3 With this around us we will not be found naked. 4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life. 5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.
                              You are quoting from an odd translation. Most translations have that house as being in heaven. That house comes to the earth in Rev 21.

                              Which is the same things the 1 Cor 15 says. The permanent home is "from heaven" not "in heaven". Read the scripture you cited carefully. The old tent doesn't go away, but it is clothed with something. Reading further, and carefully, these things are given in pledge. Nobody has received what was promised, only the promises (except Christ).

                              Continuing with the quotation......

                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              6 So we are always confident we know that so long as we are at home in the body, we are away from our home with the Lord; 7 for we live by trust, not by what we see. 8 We are confident, then, and would much prefer to leave our home in the body and come to our home with the Lord.
                              Note the next verse.
                              9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it.
                              Based on how the word "body" is used in verse 9, we can conclude that the word "body" doesn't indicate some sort of consciousness transference. But rather this verse is encouragement to living believers to live in such a way to please the Lord "whether they are in the body or away from it". There is no mention of being "in spirit" or being "in heaven".


                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              This is the passage for OT believers.

                              1 Peter 3:
                              18 For the Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but brought to life by the Spirit; 19 and in this form he went and made a proclamation to the imprisoned spirits,

                              20 to those who were disobedient long ago, in the days of Noach, when God waited patiently during the building of the ark, in which a few people to be specific, eight were delivered by means of water. 21 This also prefigures what delivers us now, the water of immersion, which is not the removal of dirt from the body, but one's pledge to keep a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Yeshua the Messiah. 22 He has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities and powers subject to him.

                              At the time of Noah was the point where, hell was prepared, we are not told what happened to those dead before Noah. The Hebrews called the part of hell where believers went Abraham's bosom. Even saints or those with Faith in God could not go to heaven, because Jesus had not accomplished God's plan until his death on the cross. This was what Jesus meant in preparing a place after physical death. Before the cross, all the spirits were in one place separated by a barrier, the righteous from the wicked.
                              We are told exactly what happened to the dead before Noah. Death is detailed in the bible, it is on page 2 (See Gen 3). In summary it is "From dust you are, and dust you shall return." The only way out of that state is through resurrection to eternal life.

                              The sprits imprisoned are those imprisoned under the law (Gal 3:23). Jesus spoke to them, you can read about it in his various discourses in the NT.


                              There is no need to add giant swaths of doctrine to the bible with mystical places, barriers, spirits, etc.... Death is detailed in the bible and hasn't changed. The gift of God is resurrection to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              There are two exceptions: Moses and Elijah who appeared in transfigured bodies that shown with the bright light of heaven. IMO, these two will be the two witnesses who will go through a physical death and resurrection. Now if one does not accept a rapture, then no one will be alive, except the 144,000 without dying physically. Or, Paul said those who are alive and remain will be caught up alive.
                              Moses and Elijah were not transfigured. Jesus was. In the passage, Jesus simply had a conversation with them, just like Samuel did with Saul after Samuel was dead.


                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              Ephesians 5:
                              25 As for husbands, love your wives, just as the Messiah loved the Messianic Community, indeed, gave himself up on its behalf, 26 in order to set it apart for God, making it clean through immersion in themikveh, so to speak, 27 in order to present the Messianic Community to himself as a bride to be proud of, without a spot, wrinkle or any such thing, but holy and without defect.
                              Yes, the marriage happens, you can read about it in Revelation.

                              Originally posted by Timtofly View Post
                              1 Thessalonians 4:15 When we say this, we base it on the Lord's own word: we who remain alive when the Lord comes will certainly not take precedence over those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a rousing cry, with a call from one of the ruling angels, and with God's shofar; those who died united with the Messiah will be the first to rise; 17 then we who are left still alive will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So encourage each other with these words.
                              This is the resurrection event at the last trumpet. Read that carefully. The dead come to life, this isn't about any sort of consciousness transference. These two passages say exactly what I have been saying.


                              The part I question is the part where you said:
                              "Paul also said that we would be immediately in Christ, but only in consciousness, because either we get a spiritual body upon death, or we have to wait for the rapture event."
                              There is no description about being in Christ in consciousness or getting a spiritual body upon death. The spiritual body is received at the resurrection, not at death. (See 1 Cor 15:42-44).
                              Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

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