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The Resurrection in the Tanakh?

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  • The Resurrection in the Tanakh?

    Some here in the forum have posted that the Tanakh, Judaism, do not discuss the concept of the resurrection of the dead.

    I believe it is openly mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Deuteronomy 1:8.

    There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it.

    Moses didn't received it, but he should as promised, Deut 34:4.

    And so must Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Genesis 13:15-17, 17:7-8, 26:3, 28:4,24. An eternal possession requires eternal life, thus a resurrection, I believe.

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by Gumby; 06-13-19, 08:47 PM.
    Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

  • #2
    Originally posted by Gumby View Post
    Some here in the forum have posted that the Tanakh, Judaism, do not discuss the concept of the resurrection of the dead.

    I believe it is openly mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Deuteronomy 1:8.

    There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it.

    Moses didn't received it, but he should as promised, Deut 34:4.

    And so must Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Genesis 13:15-17, 17:7-8, 26:3, 28:4,24. An eternal possession requires eternal life, thus a resurrection, I believe.

    Your thoughts?
    My thoughts,

    Are you saying your fellow Jews that do not believe in the Resurrection are Heretics and Apostates?
    Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gumby View Post
      Some here in the forum have posted that the Tanakh, Judaism, do not discuss the concept of the resurrection of the dead.

      I believe it is openly mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Deuteronomy 1:8.

      There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it.

      Moses didn't received it, but he should as promised, Deut 34:4.

      And so must Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Genesis 13:15-17, 17:7-8, 26:3, 28:4,24. An eternal possession requires eternal life, thus a resurrection, I believe.

      Your thoughts?
      Your statement that I've highlighted in red is not so. God's promise applies to the descendants of those to whom the promise was made. Those to whom this promise was made would have realized that, and you should have also (unless you are just trying to stir up a controversy).

      Also, why are you limiting God's revelations to Israel to the Tanakh. Surely you have all the books that are referred to as the Old Testament.
      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post
        My thoughts,

        Are you saying your fellow Jews that do not believe in the Resurrection are Heretics and Apostates?
        That's a separate topic. Do you have a comment on what I've posted?
        Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          Your statement that I've highlighted in red is not so. God's promise applies to the descendants of those to whom the promise was made. Those to whom this promise was made would have realized that, and you should have also (unless you are just trying to stir up a controversy).

          Also, why are you limiting God's revelations to Israel to the Tanakh. Surely you have all the books that are referred to as the Old Testament.
          I don't think you've read the verses provided.

          Genesis 13:15 spoken to Abraham says,

          for all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring forever.

          Genesis 17:8 spoken to Abraham says,

          ​And to you and your descendants I will give the land of your sojourn—all the land of Canaan—as an eternal possession; and I will be their God.​​​​​​

          None of this would make sense to say to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, if they were dead and forgotten.

          The Tanakh is an acronym for Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. It is what you call the entire OT.

          Some of argued in Carm, that the Jewish religion changed its stance on the resurrection and eternal life.

          I say it's been there from the beginning.
          ​​​​​​​
          Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gumby View Post
            Some here in the forum have posted that the Tanakh, Judaism, do not discuss the concept of the resurrection of the dead. I believe it is openly mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Deuteronomy 1:8.
            Would you mind specifying exactly where Deuteronomy 1:8 "openly mentions" the resurrection of the dead?
            Deuteronomy 1:8 (NASB)
            "'See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them.'"




            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
              Would you mind specifying exactly where Deuteronomy 1:8 "openly mentions" the resurrection of the dead?
              Deuteronomy 1:8 (NASB)
              "'See, I have placed the land before you; go in and possess the land which the LORD swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to them and their descendants after them.'"
              It's alluded to.
              Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                That's a separate topic. Do you have a comment on what I've posted?
                Yes my first thoughts about what you have posted are,

                My thoughts,

                Are you saying your fellow Jews that do not believe in the Resurrection are Heretics and Apostates?
                Pro 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post
                  Yes my first thoughts about what you have posted are,

                  My thoughts,

                  Are you saying your fellow Jews that do not believe in the Resurrection are Heretics and Apostates?
                  I asked for your thoughts on the topic I started. You can create your own OP.

                  But, I'll answer this once. Yes, any Jew, who denies the resurrection, is an apostate, as well as those that teach abrogation of the Torah, or that God is more than one person.

                  By the way, an apostate Jew is cut-off, is not a fellow Jew, nor part of Israel unless he repents. This is what happened to Paul.
                  Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                    It's alluded to.
                    "Alluded to" but not "openly mentioned."

                    Next....


                    The Daniel 12 verse you cited has a "time marker." The chapter begins with "At that time..." To what "time" is Daniel 12 referring? What event is going to happen to let us know "those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life..."? And if this is tied to the physical land promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which you said "never received it," then are these Daniel 12 folks having everlasting life here on earth in the physical land? Do they have everlasting life here on earth?




                    To what preceding event is Daniel 12 referring that marks the awakening to everlasting life?
                    Are these everlasting living folks living in the physical land promised Abraham?
                    All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                    “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      "Alluded to" but not "openly mentioned."

                      Next....
                      Okay. Daniel and Ezekiel are clear about the resurrection, though the term resurrection is not used. Deut 1:8 was used as an intro to what was promised to the Forefathers.

                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      The Daniel 12 verse you cited has a "time marker." The chapter begins with "At that time..." To what "time" is Daniel 12 referring? What event is going to happen to let us know "those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life..."? And if this is tied to the physical land promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob which you said "never received it," then are these Daniel 12 folks having everlasting life here on earth in the physical land? Do they have everlasting life here on earth?
                      The passages dont say specifically. But, we do know that the resurrection here is specific to Israel, "your people".

                      Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                      To what preceding event is Daniel 12 referring that marks the awakening to everlasting life?
                      Are these everlasting living folks living in the physical land promised Abraham?
                      It doesnt say specifically other than Michael the prince arriving coming on the scene. But, the promises to the Patriarchs says the possession of the land, to them, and their descendants, is an eternal one.

                      Ezekiel 37 says the Jews are gathered and they settle Israel again.
                      Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                        The passages dont say specifically. But, we do know that the resurrection here is specific to Israel, "your people".
                        That is incorrect. The text of Daniel does in fact specify the preceding events.

                        Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                        The passages dont say specifically. But, we do know that the resurrection here is specific to Israel, "your people".
                        On this occasion I am not asking about what scripture specifies. I'm asking about your own posts. You, Gumby, explicitly stated, "There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it," and explicitly tied the resurrection to the physical land and the forefathers never having received it.

                        I simply asked if That's what Daniel 12 was about and the answer is in essence, "Scriptures don't say."


                        Next...
                        .
                        Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                        Ezekiel 37 says the Jews are gathered and they settle Israel again.
                        Let's look at the verses specified (Eze. 37:12-14).
                        Ezekiel 37:12-14
                        "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
                        Here in Ezekiel 37 the Jews were told they'd be brought into the land of Israel! This implies they aren't in the land when the resurrection occurs. Here land is explicitly mentioned so I ask again if you understand the resurrection to be about immortality here on earth.

                        The passage claims God will put His Spirit in those He raises from the grave. How do you understand that, Gumby? What does that mean?
                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          That is incorrect. The text of Daniel does in fact specify the preceding events.
                          Why don't you tell me what those events are. It has no relevance to the resurrection and eternal possession promised to the Patriarchs.

                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          On this occasion I am not asking about what scripture specifies. I'm asking about your own posts. You, Gumby, explicitly stated, "There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it," and explicitly tied the resurrection to the physical land and the forefathers never having received it.
                          Yes.

                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          I simply asked if That's what Daniel 12 was about and the answer is in essence, "Scriptures don't say."
                          It doesn't say.

                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          Next...
                          .
                          Let's look at the verses specified (Eze. 37:12-14).
                          Ezekiel 37:12-14
                          "Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
                          Here in Ezekiel 37 the Jews were told they'd be brought into the land of Israel! This implies they aren't in the land when the resurrection occurs. Here land is explicitly mentioned so I ask again if you understand the resurrection to be about immortality here on earth.
                          With the Jews being dispersed to the 4 corners, it's understandable. It says they will be returned to their land.

                          Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                          The passage claims God will put His Spirit in those He raises from the grave. How do you understand that, Gumby? What does that mean?
                          I don't know. What do you think? But more importantly, how do the Patriarchs gain eternal possession of the land if they are not resurrected, as promised in the Torah?
                          Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. Leo Tolstoy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                            Why don't you tell me what those events are.... I don't know. What do you think? But more importantly, how do the Patriarchs gain eternal possession of the land if they are not resurrected, as promised in the Torah?
                            It is not necessary for my purposes to answer and address my own inquiries.


                            My purpose was to discover whether you knew the answers and the record shows you don't. The record shows some of the claims made about the passages self-cited were incorrect. The evidence shows the verses were claimed to be resurrection-related but how this is so is unknown. In other words - and I do not say this to be rude or cease discourse - but it doesn't appear you know what you are talking about and have little ability to explain the scripture you yourself cited in any meaningful way consistent with your own claims.

                            Why would I or anyone want to discuss this matter with such a person, Gumby? Well, the answer might lie in that person's willingness to learn... based on his admission he doesn't know, might want and need to know, and therefore some display of sincere interest is warranted.

                            You're a modern Jew who has come into a Christian discussion forum to tell us about the resurrection in the Tanakh but doing a very poor job... as evidenced by the inability to answer and address some very basic op-relevant concerns. Try for a moment to see how this looks to the readers.






                            Now, I have been asked to answer the questions asked myself and this too is a curious thing because 1) the texts themselves answer some of the questions quite plainly and explicitly, and 2) I know you have read the NT and I therefore know you know how the NT answers these questions so even the request for answers is suspect.

                            So let me see whether a reactive response to what I am now writing can be avoided and some reason for me to continue can be provided.
                            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Gumby View Post
                              Some here in the forum have posted that the Tanakh, Judaism, do not discuss the concept of the resurrection of the dead.

                              I believe it is openly mentioned in Daniel 12:2, Ezekiel 37:12-14, Deuteronomy 1:8.

                              There's a mistaken notion that the promise of the land doesn't relate to the resurrection or eternal life. The forefathers were promised Israel, and yet they never received it.

                              Moses didn't received it, but he should as promised, Deut 34:4.

                              And so must Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, Genesis 13:15-17, 17:7-8, 26:3, 28:4,24. An eternal possession requires eternal life, thus a resurrection, I believe.

                              Your thoughts?
                              Check out John 11:1-26

                              Comment

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