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  • Book recommendations?

    I would appreciate recommendations on books that teach the natural progression of Christianity from Judaism. I know that i should read Josephus and Origen but what else?



  • #2
    Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
    I would appreciate recommendations on books that teach the natural progression of Christianity from Judaism. I know that i should read Josephus and Origen but what else?
    n>1) What else? Maybe you've read the Bible. Or not.
    2) About the "natural" progression... some folks are also interested in the supernatural progression. If you have rejected the supernatural, then... well,,, Edit per mod Which is, of course, fine, if that's what you want.
    3) Since you refuse to pray in the name of Jesus, maybe you also refuse to read the New Testament, maybe? Too much Jesus for you? Yet you ask about your OP stuff... hmmm...
    4) Have you read anything by N.T. Wright?
    .
    Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
    “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
      I would appreciate recommendations on books that teach the natural progression of Christianity from Judaism. I know that i should read Josephus and Origen but what else?
      It's all in the Bible.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by noemail001 View Post

        n>1) What else? Maybe you've read the Bible. Or not.
        2) About the "natural" progression... some folks are also interested in the supernatural progression. If you have rejected the supernatural, then... well,,, Edit per mod Which is, of course, fine, if that's what you want.
        3) Since you refuse to pray in the name of Jesus, maybe you also refuse to read the New Testament, maybe? Too much Jesus for you? Yet you ask about your OP stuff... hmmm...
        4) Have you read anything by N.T. Wright?
        .
        I prefer to get my resposes from knowledgeable Christians. Thank you anyway.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

          It's all in the Bible.
          Well, the surrounding history isn't.


          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post

            Well, the surrounding history isn't.
            The only "History that matters", IS.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

              The only "History that matters", IS.
              Tyfyt.


              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
                I would appreciate recommendations on books that teach the natural progression of Christianity from Judaism. I know that i should read Josephus and Origen but what else?
                How are you defining natural progression?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rockson View Post

                  How are you defining natural progression?
                  The true and accurate sequence of events.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    n> ...4) Have you read anything by N.T. Wright?

                    Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post

                    I prefer to get my resposes from knowledgeable Christians. Thank you anyway.
                    n>Uuuuuu. Wow.
                    Mouser Larry Roy: "yippee ki yay"
                    “... see the loonies in their cages… are they not witty… how much amusement they afford… ours is a human world, theirs is a bestial world… " Bedlam

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
                      I would appreciate recommendations on books that teach the natural progression of Christianity from Judaism. I know that i should read Josephus and Origen but what else?
                      N. T. Wright's books on Paul are recommended. They are highly informative. His books, "Paul," "Paul and the Faithfulness of God," "The Resurrection of Jesus Christ," "The Climax of the Covenant" and "History and Eschatology" are all rooted in an examination of first century Judaism, especially within Pauline Pharisee-ism. Derek Tidball wrote a book "The Social Context of the New Testament," which is a sociological analysis of the first century church. "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna is informative about early church practices but it's more about Greek influence than Jewish. I'll check my library and see what other titles I can recommend and get back to you.
                      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                        N. T. Wright's books on Paul are recommended. They are highly informative. His books, "Paul," "Paul and the Faithfulness of God," "The Resurrection of Jesus Christ," "The Climax of the Covenant" and "History and Eschatology" are all rooted in an examination of first century Judaism, especially within Pauline Pharisee-ism. Derek Tidball wrote a book "The Social Context of the New Testament," which is a sociological analysis of the first century church. "Pagan Christianity" by Frank Viola and George Barna is informative about early church practices but it's more about Greek influence than Jewish. I'll check my library and see what other titles I can recommend and get back to you.
                        Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it.
                        I might start with Eusebius "The History of the Church." I may try some of the Wright books but I'm slightly hesitant because he was an Anglican Bishop, which to me pretty much adds up to Catholic.


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
                          Thank you for the reply, I appreciate it. I might start with Eusebius "The History of the Church."
                          That's good. You might try church historian Peter Schaff, too (think I spelled his name correct). However, as I understand the op you're specifically interested in the Jewish/Hebrew origins. Neither Eusebius or Schaff explores that very deeply if my recollection is correct. Remember also that Judaism itself had changed by the time Jesus showed up and the Hellenist influence was significant *I believe this is why God chose Paul, a Jew born and raised in Greece with Roman citizenship).
                          Originally posted by Rachel Rachel View Post
                          I may try some of the Wright books but I'm slightly hesitant because he was an Anglican Bishop, which to me pretty much adds up to Catholic.
                          Wright is Anglican (I believe he now teaches here in the US) but he's much more reformed than most give him credit, largely as a consequence of his debate with Piper over justification. The "New Paul" perspective was quite controversial when it first appeared in the 1960s but Wright has done much to guide it back to orthodoxy.

                          E. P. Sanders (Presbyterian) was one of the earliest proponents of the New Paul, or New perspective on Paul movement and his books, "Jesus and Judaism," and "Jesus, the Law, and the Jewish People," are books in which he explores first cetnury Judaisms (plural). Think of him as somewhere between Piper and J. D. Crossan of the Jesus Seminar (I'm jesting). No one actually thinks Paul "invented" Christianity (at least no evangelical I've read and no one I've met.

                          Since I've mentioned it, there is at least one author from the Jesus Seminar (JS) movement that I'd recommend: Paula Fredriksen. Her book "From Jesus to Christ," subtitled "The Origins of the New Testament Images of Christ," has a lot of good content. The JS folks make piles of wrong connections but her historical information is often spot on an illuminating. For example, it's likely John was referencing the Jewish philosopher Phil in his godpel's preamble. Philo wrote about Alexander the Great and called him the logos of God and the mediator between God and man, John was likely referencing a text that in his day was well-known among his contemporary Jews - but he was radically altering the message to say, "It's not Alexander; it is Jesus and Jesus isn't merely a man, He is God."

                          This next suggestion is a bit tangential but James W. Dale wrote a three-part series on baptism. He covers Judaic baptism, Christic baptism, and Johannic baptism, each in separate volumes. They are out of print as far as I know but you might find a used copy online. I believe Dale is Presbyterian (19c, if any of that matters). His books are quite detailed (read: mind-numbingly so) but to the degree that baptism is fundamental to Christianity Dale's the guy covering Jewish roots and influences of that ritual.

                          You might want to checkout the theonomist Reconstructionists, too. John Rushdoony's "Institutes..." is full of OT lwa application, at least to their view of modern Christianity. I'd recoomend Gary North over Rushdoony, though. His two companion books "The Dominion Covenant," and "Tools of Dominion," applies the Pentateuch to their view of theonomy.

                          Lastly, I'd recommend reading on the Jewish translation of the Tanakh into Greek. The Septuagint is informative. For example, when the Jews translated the OT into Greek they used the Greek term "ekklesia" for Hebrew "qahal." The OT "assembly" became "those called out." In our own NT we use the word "church" in English but there is a direct line for that term all the way back to Moses.

                          These are all very different views of Jewish influence on Christianity and none of them is taking a strictly historical view; they're all applying it to modern understanding. If you learn of a source strictly addressing the Hewbrew/Jewish influences on Christianity (at least up to Constantine?), I'd be interested in know about it.

                          All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                          “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            One last thought: Several of the "handbooks" and encyclopedias have the kind of information for which you're looking. Many of these are combined with Bible software suites. (Logos, QuickVerse, etc.) I have hard copies of Eerdman's, Holman, Naves, etc. all have some history of Judaism relevant to Christianity. In the early 80s Baker Book House did a series on Old Testament Studies with names like Meredith Kline, Victor Hamilton, and Norm Geisler contributing books on the exegetical study of the imago dei (Kline), a handbook on the Pentateuch (Hamilton), and a survey of the OT (Geisler). It's an old series but the entire series is about connections between OT and NT. These references might be in a library near you.
                            All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                            “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Josheb View Post
                              That's good. You might try church historian Peter Schaff, too (think I spelled his name correct). However, as I understand the op you're specifically interested in the Jewish/Hebrew origins. Neither Eusebius or Schaff explores that very deeply if my recollection is correct. Remember also that Judaism itself had changed by the time Jesus showed up and the Hellenist influence was significant *I believe this is why God chose Paul, a Jew born and raised in Greece with Roman citizenship).

                              Wright is Anglican (I believe he now teaches here in the US) but he's much more reformed than most give him credit, largely as a consequence of his debate with Piper over justification. The "New Paul" perspective was quite controversial when it first appeared in the 1960s but Wright has done much to guide it back to orthodoxy.

                              E. P. Sanders (Presbyterian) was one of the earliest proponents of the New Paul, or New perspective on Paul movement and his books, "Jesus and Judaism," and "Jesus, the Law, and the Jewish People," are books in which he explores first cetnury Judaisms (plural). Think of him as somewhere between Piper and J. D. Crossan of the Jesus Seminar (I'm jesting). No one actually thinks Paul "invented" Christianity (at least no evangelical I've read and no one I've met.

                              Since I've mentioned it, there is at least one author from the Jesus Seminar (JS) movement that I'd recommend: Paula Fredriksen. Her book "From Jesus to Christ," subtitled "The Origins of the New Testament Images of Christ," has a lot of good content. The JS folks make piles of wrong connections but her historical information is often spot on an illuminating. For example, it's likely John was referencing the Jewish philosopher Phil in his godpel's preamble. Philo wrote about Alexander the Great and called him the logos of God and the mediator between God and man, John was likely referencing a text that in his day was well-known among his contemporary Jews - but he was radically altering the message to say, "It's not Alexander; it is Jesus and Jesus isn't merely a man, He is God."

                              This next suggestion is a bit tangential but James W. Dale wrote a three-part series on baptism. He covers Judaic baptism, Christic baptism, and Johannic baptism, each in separate volumes. They are out of print as far as I know but you might find a used copy online. I believe Dale is Presbyterian (19c, if any of that matters). His books are quite detailed (read: mind-numbingly so) but to the degree that baptism is fundamental to Christianity Dale's the guy covering Jewish roots and influences of that ritual.

                              You might want to checkout the theonomist Reconstructionists, too. John Rushdoony's "Institutes..." is full of OT lwa application, at least to their view of modern Christianity. I'd recoomend Gary North over Rushdoony, though. His two companion books "The Dominion Covenant," and "Tools of Dominion," applies the Pentateuch to their view of theonomy.

                              Lastly, I'd recommend reading on the Jewish translation of the Tanakh into Greek. The Septuagint is informative. For example, when the Jews translated the OT into Greek they used the Greek term "ekklesia" for Hebrew "qahal." The OT "assembly" became "those called out." In our own NT we use the word "church" in English but there is a direct line for that term all the way back to Moses.

                              These are all very different views of Jewish influence on Christianity and none of them is taking a strictly historical view; they're all applying it to modern understanding. If you learn of a source strictly addressing the Hewbrew/Jewish influences on Christianity (at least up to Constantine?), I'd be interested in know about it.
                              Thank you for all your help. I think I've changed my mind about starting with Eusebius and I'm going to download Josephus and one of the E.P. Sanders books. I'm going to keep this post so I'll have all your references.
                              Thank you so much!


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