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  • Romans 8:12-14

    "So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by God's Spirit are God's sons." Romans 8:12-14, HCSB

    I've been reading through Romans 5-10 as prep for a men's retreat I'm going to next weekend. All of the commentaries I've read (Barnes, Matthew Henry) imply that a person who acts according to his flesh, is at risk of eternal death. This goes against once-saved-always-saved (preservation of the saints) that's so commonly taught. Like everyone, I have moments where I'm weak and totally cave to fleshly desires.

    What are your thoughts?


  • #2
    Originally posted by SolemnBalance View Post
    "So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by God's Spirit are God's sons." Romans 8:12-14, HCSB

    I've been reading through Romans 5-10 as prep for a men's retreat I'm going to next weekend. All of the commentaries I've read (Barnes, Matthew Henry) imply that a person who acts according to his flesh, is at risk of eternal death. This goes against once-saved-always-saved (preservation of the saints) that's so commonly taught. Like everyone, I have moments where I'm weak and totally cave to fleshly desires.

    What are your thoughts?
    OSAS is corrosive to a Christian. It promotes the idea that once a person is saved they can continue to live in their pre-born again lifestyle, but to do so puts their salvation in jeopardy.

    Here are a few verses that refute OSAS (there are many more):

    Rom 11:17-22
    If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

    Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
    NIV

    1 Cor 15:1-2
    Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

    Gal 6:7-8
    Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

    Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

    Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by AlFin View Post

      OSAS is corrosive to a Christian. It promotes the idea that once a person is saved they can continue to live in their pre-born again lifestyle, but to do so puts their salvation in jeopardy.

      Here are a few verses that refute OSAS (there are many more):

      Rom 11:17-22
      If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

      Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
      NIV

      1 Cor 15:1-2
      Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

      Gal 6:7-8
      Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

      ALL Pauline Christians who have accepted Paul's counterfiet gospel will be rejected by GOD / YESHUA !

      YESHUA did NOT say He has departed with a UNFINISHED GOSPEL!

      He did NOT say HE will send us ANOTHER human mortal apostle to FINISH His COMPLETED Gospel !,

      Read JOHN 14: 26 ,,John 17: 4 ,,John 16: 13 , John 14: 16 Please notice the WORDS "ALL and EVERYTHING"


      As usual, my posts are for the benefit of the lurkers who desire to worship God in Spirit and in TRUTH (john 4: 24 , Matt 24: 24 , Matt 22: 14)



      Fear God and keep his commandments,
      for this is the duty of ALL mankind. Ecc 12: 13

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DANNO View Post

        ALL Pauline Christians who have accepted Paul's counterfiet gospel will be rejected by GOD / YESHUA !

        YESHUA did NOT say He has departed with a UNFINISHED GOSPEL!

        He did NOT say HE will send us ANOTHER human mortal apostle to FINISH His COMPLETED Gospel !
        He didn't say he had departed with a FINISHED gospel either. But since Jesus gave Paul the gospel he was able to write this:

        Gal 1:11-12
        I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

        Read JOHN 14: 26 ,,John 17: 4 ,,John 16: 13 , John 14: 16 Please notice the WORDS "ALL and EVERYTHING"
        John 14:26
        But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
        NIV

        Since the Father has sent the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to us, he teaches us all things, as well as what Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, etc. had said.

        Eph 4:10-13
        10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
        NIV

        If there was nothing else to teach us, there would have been no reason to send apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

        John 17:4
        I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
        NIV

        Jesus was not stating that what he did was everything God planned for us, otherwise why would God have sent us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. (Eph 4:10-13)

        John 16:12-15
        12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
        NIV

        Woops! Jesus stated that the Holy Spirit will tell us more than Jesus did; otherwise, why would Jesus have said, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear" if he had told them everything they needed to know? Now the readers know that you don't tell them the whole truth.

        John 14:16
        And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
        NIV

        Also, if Jesus had said all that was needed, then why did the Father send us another Counselor?

        As usual, my posts are for the benefit of the lurkers who desire to worship God in Spirit and in TRUTH (john 4: 24 , Matt 24: 24 , Matt 22: 14)
        And it is up to the rest of us to reveal to those you disparage by the term "lurkers" the actual truth.
        Last edited by AlFin; 10-19-19, 01:25 PM.
        Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

        Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AlFin View Post

          He didn't say he had departed with a FINISHED gospel either. But since Jesus gave Paul the gospel he was able to write this:

          Gal 1:11-12
          I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.
          You do know that Paul is saying that Jesus DID NOT TEACH Paul, Paul is claiming to be the Christ and that these things were revealed to him when he Paul was like the Christ.

          Originally posted by AlFin View Post

          John 14:26
          But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
          NIV

          Since the Father has sent the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to us, he teaches us all things, as well as what Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, etc. had said.
          You posted a verse above in which Paul claims to have NOT BEEN TAUGHT, but was revealed these things when he was the Christ.

          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          Eph 4:10-13
          10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
          NIV

          If there was nothing else to teach us, there would have been no reason to send apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.
          Again Paul was NOT TAUGHT, things came to Paul by revelation. We have someone on these very forums that also claims these things, why do you not believe he who on these forums claims these things?

          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          John 17:4
          I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
          NIV

          Jesus was not stating that what he did was everything God planned for us, otherwise why would God have sent us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. (Eph 4:10-13)
          Why do you not believe the one on these very forums that claims to have direct revelations from Christ?

          Originally posted by AlFin View Post

          John 16:12-15
          12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
          NIV

          Woops! Jesus stated that the Holy Spirit will tell us more than Jesus did; otherwise, why would Jesus have said, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear" if he had told them everything they needed to know? Now the readers know that you don't tell them the whole truth.
          Again Paul was not taught, he had revelations from Christ.


          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          John 14:16
          And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
          NIV

          Also, if Jesus had said all that was needed, then why did the Father send us another Counselor?
          Counselor as in attorney, one who is on your side and fights/defends for you.

          Originally posted by AlFin View Post

          And it is up to the rest of us to reveal to those you disparage by the term "lurkers" the actual truth.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by AlFin View Post

            He didn't say he had departed with a FINISHED gospel either. But since Jesus gave Paul the gospel he was able to write this:

            Gal 1:11-12
            I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.



            John 14:26
            But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
            NIV

            Since the Father has sent the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, to us, he teaches us all things, as well as what Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, John, the writer of Hebrews, etc. had said.

            Eph 4:10-13
            10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
            NIV

            If there was nothing else to teach us, there would have been no reason to send apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.

            John 17:4
            I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
            NIV

            Jesus was not stating that what he did was everything God planned for us, otherwise why would God have sent us apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. (Eph 4:10-13)

            John 16:12-15
            12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
            NIV

            Woops! Jesus stated that the Holy Spirit will tell us more than Jesus did; otherwise, why would Jesus have said, "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear" if he had told them everything they needed to know? Now the readers know that you don't tell them the whole truth.

            John 14:16
            And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever—
            NIV

            Also, if Jesus had said all that was needed, then why did the Father send us another Counselor?



            And it is up to the rest of us to reveal to those you disparage by the term "lurkers" the actual truth.

            MATT 12: 36-37 ,, Matt 12: 31

            The above is all I need to remind you on .
            Fear God and keep his commandments,
            for this is the duty of ALL mankind. Ecc 12: 13

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post

              You do know that Paul is saying that Jesus DID NOT TEACH Paul, Paul is claiming to be the Christ and that these things were revealed to him when he Paul was like the Christ.

              You posted a verse above in which Paul claims to have NOT BEEN TAUGHT, but was revealed these things when he was the Christ.
              Paul never claimed to the be Christ.

              Again Paul was NOT TAUGHT, things came to Paul by revelation. We have someone on these very forums that also claims these things, why do you not believe he who on these forums claims these things?
              So? Paul's conversion and writings confirms that he had a supernatural encounter with the risen Christ. What someone on these forums claims can be verified by comparing what he posts versus what Scripture says.

              1 John 4:1
              Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

              There will be false prophets, false Christs, false witnesses, false apostles, false brothers, false teachers, etc.

              Why do you not believe the one on these very forums that claims to have direct revelations from Christ?
              Because I "test the spirits" against the Scriptures, and 99.9999% of the time those claims prove to be false.

              Again Paul was not taught, he had revelations from Christ.
              Yeah, that's what is written.

              Counselor as in attorney, one who is on your side and fights/defends for you.
              That's one of the things the Holy Spirit does, but not the only thing. Contrary to what you imply, I don't put limits on what the Holy Spirit does. He's also our intercessor (Rom 8:26-27) and ...

              Eph 1:13-14
              And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory.

              Titus 3:4-7
              But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
              Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

              Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                Paul never claimed to the be Christ.



                So? Paul's conversion and writings confirms that he had a supernatural encounter with the risen Christ. What someone on these forums claims can be verified by comparing what he posts versus what Scripture says.

                1 John 4:1
                Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

                There will be false prophets, false Christs, false witnesses, false apostles, false brothers, false teachers, etc.



                Because I "test the spirits" against the Scriptures, and 99.9999% of the time those claims prove to be false.



                Yeah, that's what is written.



                That's one of the things the Holy Spirit does, but not the only thing. Contrary to what you imply, I don't put limits on what the Holy Spirit does. He's also our intercessor (Rom 8:26-27) and ...

                Eph 1:13-14
                And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession to the praise of his glory.

                Titus 3:4-7
                But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
                You should test Paul's words against Scripture.

                Why do you accept Paul's writings without testing them against Scripture?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post

                  You should test Paul's words against Scripture.

                  Why do you accept Paul's writings without testing them against Scripture?
                  Paul's writings are Scripture, just as much as those of the other apostles. Peter even alluded to this:

                  2 Peter 3:14-18
                  14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
                  17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
                  NIV
                  Last edited by AlFin; 10-20-19, 03:01 PM.
                  Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                  Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                    Paul's writings are Scripture, just as much as those of the other apostles. Peter even alluded to this:

                    2 Peter 3:14-18
                    14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
                    17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
                    NIV
                    Yet Paul's own writings do not stand a test against himself, God, Jesus, the Prophets, the Apostles and the Holy Spirit.

                    Many times you must twist Paul's words, and say what Paul wrote is not what Paul meant in order for them to be in agreement.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post

                      Yet Paul's own writings do not stand a test against himself, God, Jesus, the Prophets, the Apostles and the Holy Spirit.

                      Many times you must twist Paul's words, and say what Paul wrote is not what Paul meant in order for them to be in agreement.
                      Only in your own mind.
                      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                        Only in your own mind.
                        So these are in agreement?

                        Jesus says 2, Paul says 1

                        Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
                        Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
                        Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                        Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

                        Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Forgiven Child View Post

                          So these are in agreement?

                          Jesus says 2, Paul says 1

                          Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
                          Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
                          Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                          Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

                          Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
                          FC

                          I don't believe Mr Alf can fully understand the point you're making ! Even with the evidence placed in his face.
                          Fear God and keep his commandments,
                          for this is the duty of ALL mankind. Ecc 12: 13

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SolemnBalance View Post
                            "So then, brothers, we are not obligated to the flesh to live according to the flesh, for if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die. But if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. All those led by God's Spirit are God's sons." Romans 8:12-14, HCSB

                            I've been reading through Romans 5-10 as prep for a men's retreat I'm going to next weekend. All of the commentaries I've read (Barnes, Matthew Henry) imply that a person who acts according to his flesh, is at risk of eternal death. This goes against once-saved-always-saved (preservation of the saints) that's so commonly taught. Like everyone, I have moments where I'm weak and totally cave to fleshly desires.

                            What are your thoughts?
                            Jesus said those who believe in Him and are saved shall never die. The Bible tells us there are two deaths. Those who trust in Jesus will be delivered from the second death. That means if Christians live in the flesh after they get saved they will die the first death, but not the second death.
                            I am not a NPB-Onlyist (No Perfect Bible Onlyist), nor a NA/UBS-Onlyist. Marke

                            If this book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon

                            For that Revised Version I have but little care as a general rule, holding it to be by no means an improvement upon our common Authorized Version. C.H. Spurgeon

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just now getting back to this post I started. Glad I waited. So what has occurred, is a criticism of if Paul's letters are even Scriptural, much less canonical, am I right? Didn't realize this convo was going to question the validity of such Scriptures.

                              Comment

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