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Bad Grammar by Trinitarian academics

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    So you still refuse to give the classical Latin vocalization of Jove?

    Your posturing is very transparent. Absolutely nothing of substance.

    ================

    The connection of Yahweh and Jove is very simple. They are the same name, and thus the same entity.

    Steven
    Your theory is so bad it doesn't need to be refuted, only mocked. It's right up there with flat earth "theories" and those who believe that Elvis is Sasquatch. You have never studied Latin, you know no Greek, and your Hebrew is minimal. And you have the gall to assert that I have no substance?

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

      Your theory is so bad it doesn't need to be refuted, only mocked. It's right up there with flat earth "theories" and those who believe that Elvis is Sasquatch. You have never studied Latin, you know no Greek, and your Hebrew is minimal. And you have the gall to assert that I have no substance?
      Indeed.
      I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Jameson View Post
        When you look at the root of a word in an inflected language, you look at the genitive, not the ablative. The root of the name is Iov-.
        The root is not the common form of worship.

        Jove (yahweh) is the common form that you can see in much of the literature, afaik you never see the root, Iov, as the name that is invoked and worshiped.

        The same is true with the Hebrew root (and for the controversies on the Hebrew root and the proposed meanings thereof, I tend to defer to Nehemia Gordon, similarly he has a fine exposition on your V or W question.)

        When it comes to Biblical Hebrew, I will take just about anything that Nehemia shares as far stronger than Barry and your piddle assertions.

        Originally posted by Jameson View Post
        The attempt of someone who doesn't know Hebrew or Latin to use these languages to "prove" that the one is connected to the other is certainly a diversion.
        Seeing that the pronunciation of Jove and Yahweh are the same takes no special skill.

        To be safe and sure before making it a clear public exposition, a number of Latin sources were checked by Nehemia Gordon. And I checked some in addition.

        You notice how Barry never answered the question about the vocalization of Jove.

        Originally posted by Jameson View Post
        You brush me off because I'm consistently secular in my approach to every religion
        And this is a proclaimed Christian forum, where you are a guest who is becoming quite boorish in their agitprop against the Christian and Hebraic faith views. I have not made any reports, but the repetitive irrelevance might change that. If you want to discuss secular atheistic views, I know a few other forums where there are superb discussions, and I even take part in some.

        =================

        If a Christian goes to Peru, and finds people in robes chanting "Harry Kirshner" repetitively all day (I am changing the name a bit) you would know it was the same devil as those hindoos, without wondering one bit or one whit whether or not you could show the etymological and historical linkages. The spiritual linkages would be clear as day.

        Steven
        Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-24-17, 10:04 PM.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
          Your theory is so bad it doesn't need to be refuted, only mocked. It's right up there with flat earth "theories" and those who believe that Elvis is Sasquatch. You have never studied Latin, you know no Greek, and your Hebrew is minimal. And you have the gall to assert that I have no substance?
          Originally posted by Jameson View Post
          Indeed.
          These are essentially concessions:

          "Yes, Jove is vocalized as Yahweh, but we don't want to discuss the confluence of how the God of Israel got confused with a pagan deity .. nahh nahh nahhh"

          And yes, much of what Barry writes (not all, another Logic 101 fail from Barry) lacks substance.
          That was most definitely the case in the post referenced.

          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
          You really need to preach it in the mirror. Your attempt to connect Yahweh and Jove is an amazing example of ignorance compounded by logical fallacies. Nice to see your true colors emerging, though.
          Totally non-substantive.

          Next, let's show you how Gesenius used the Jupiter-Yahweh connection as a major part of bringing the mangling construction "yahweh" into modern scholarship circles as a supposed tetragram vocalization (against massive evidence, starting with ALL the dozens of theophoric names in the Hebrew Bible.)

          Steven
          Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-25-17, 01:21 AM.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
            Next, let's show you how Gesenius used the Jupiter-Yahweh connection as a major part of bringing the mangling construction "yahweh" into modern scholarship circles as a supposed tetragram vocalization (against massive evidence, starting with ALL the dozens of theophoric names in the Hebrew Bible.)
            Pinterest
            Makor Hebrew Foundation - Nehemia Gordon

            https://www.pinterest.com/pin/230105862191295670/

            Gesenius
            "I suppose this word to be one of the most remote antiquity, perhaps of the same origin as Jovis, Jupiter, and transferred from the Egyptians to the Hebrews"
            Tregelles was appalled that Gesenius was using the connection with Jupiter as part of the Yahweh or Yahveh connection.
            [What an idea! God himself revealed this as his own name; the Israelites could never have received it from the Egyptians]
            Here is the Gesenius section.

            Gesenius's Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Scriptures, 1846,
            http://www.masseiana.org/gesenius.htm


            There really are two distinct, but related issue.

            ======================

            ISSUE ONE - The Failure of Yahweh, The excellence of Jehovah

            First, Yahweh is a total failure in terms of Hebrew Bibles theophoric names (trivially easy to see). This alone should end any debate and any usage of the corruption. For this reason, a consistent Yahwehista tries to change the name of the Messiah, and the many names like Jehosaphat. Ergo .. a total failure.

            And secondly in terms of careful analysis of the actual Masoretic Text manuscripts. Yehovah, or Jehovah, is simply the pure and majestic names, 3-syllables, likely with the sense of the three tenses. And yahweh is the corruption of modernists.

            There are various other elements that are worthy of consideration, as commentary.

            ======================

            ISSUE TWO - Not only is Yahweh a false rendering of the Tetragram, it is also a FALSE deity

            In fact, it is the enemy of Christian and Jewish faith, Jupiter.

            =======================

            Pseudo-scholars and atheists seem to have a lot invested in defending the devil name.

            Steven


            Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-25-17, 01:42 AM.

            Comment


            • #81
              However, if Barry wants to use his language background to actually assist (what happenned on the Shepherd of Hermas?) instead of posturing, here is one learned writer that might help Barry out of his yahwehista jam:

              Supplementa ad Lexica Hebraica - Pars Prima
              Joannis Davidis Michaelis
              https://books.google.com/books?id=lxtOjFd5mREC&pg=PA524

              p. 524-526

              And another writer who he can study is:

              De l'Harmonie entre I'Eglise et la Synagogue (1844)
              Paul Drach
              https://archive.org/stream/delharmon.../n356/mode/2up


              p. 473-490 is a major section after what starts on p. 318

              Although I am not sure of Barry's French level. My gut sense, from some checking and reading, is that these two can be very helpful. Drach has far more material, but Michaelis is always a sharp cookie (even when he mistakenly attacked the heavenly witnesses.) Then you augment with Nehemia Gordon for Masoretic Text information and the Jupiter connection. And also using also some modern writers, like Carl Franklin, and Gerard Gertoux. Scott Jones has a very fine theophoric name chart, and Gerard Gertoux has more techie pages in the same direction.

              As I point out above, however, the major issues are really very simple. Especially the theophoric names, matching Jehovah and being totally non-functional and unrelated to Yahweh. The second major issue, explaining the vowels in the Masoretic Text (and discussing the historic Hebraics) is where Nehemia Gordon shines.

              One thing is very clear, modern language writers tend to get very duped in their limited language usage by whoever were their teachers and handlers. And prefer obscure, arcane theories, unproveable and unreliable, to that which is simple and clear and true.

              As an example, the incredibly obtuse insistence of Barry Hofstetter that the fact that two names sound identical is irrelevant. Pretty dumb. It is amazing that a Christian would not understand the most elemental relationships of spiritual entities and their names.

              Who knows, maybe Barry will actually learn a bit.

              Steven
              Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-25-17, 02:57 AM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Man, you live on another planet.
                I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                  Man, you live on another planet.
                  Rather than exposing your dancing and hopping and skipping, why not answer ANYTHING?

                  Simple questions, I'll use the Y to make it easier.

                  1) how is the classical Latin Jove vocalized?

                  2) why do 100 Masoretic Text mss. have the full vowels for Yehovah in at least some instances? How did they get there?
                  (hint: a wrong answer would be to say they were there to suggest reading Adonai.)

                  3) the many theophoric names in the Bible .. is the prefix Yeho--- or Yah---. ?


                  If you answer even ONE of these questions directly, and accurately, I will be rather amazed. For you, I will keep it simple and straightforward, because, on occasion, you actually have been responsive.

                  Steven
                  Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-25-17, 12:48 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    1) how is the classical Latin Jove vocalized?
                    Should I understand that you mean to ask how it's pronounced? Would it not be easier to convert the names into a simple IPA so that they can be compared more basically?

                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    2) why do 100 Masoretic Text mss. have the full vowels for Yehovah in at least some instances? How did they get there?
                    (hint: a wrong answer would be to say they were there to suggest reading Adonai.)
                    You rule out the possibility of the Ktiv-Kri system? Why?

                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    3) the many theophoric names in the Bible .. is the prefix Yeho--- or Yah---. ?
                    It is Yeho- as a prefix and -yahu as a suffix. This suggests to me that the -a- was reduced (just as happens with the -a- in the first syllable of verbs like shamar "he kept" when they are paired with heavy suffixes: shmartem "you (pl.) kept").

                    By the way, "accurately" is not properly defined as "according to my personal understanding."
                    I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                      Should I understand that you mean to ask how it's pronounced? Would it not be easier to convert the names into a simple IPA so that they can be compared more basically?
                      If you think that is strong enough, surely you can go that route. However, those who are immersed in classical Latin professionally or with decent classical Latin linquistic background will probably give more understanding than formalistic chart analysis. Remember, the IPA people say:

                      "remember that it is only a rough guide."

                      So, I am still waiting for either your or Barry to give your classical Latin pronunciation (yes, the better word) of Jove in English letters.

                      =========================

                      Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                      You rule out the possibility of the Ktiv-Kri system? Why?
                      Where did I say that I rule out anything? The number of places where the full vowels are kept is small, 6 in the Aleppo Codex.

                      Looking for your explanation of why they are there, but only a small number in each manuscript, and not in set places. How could the qere-ketiv system account for what we can call the ultra-minority vowels? So far they have been noted in over 100 Masoretic Text mss, which strongly negates any explanation that says simply scribal accident.

                      Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                      It is Yeho- as a prefix and -yahu as a suffix.
                      Agreed. Does Yahweh have Yeho as a prefix?

                      How about Yehovah? Yes! A match.
                      By not-jove, we have found the agreement.

                      So why not simply accept that the tetragram also begins Yeho-- ?

                      Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                      This suggests to me that the -a- was reduced (just as happens with the -a- in the first syllable of verbs like shamar "he kept" when they are paired with heavy suffixes: shmartem "you (pl.) kept")..
                      In this construction, in the unreduced form, did you have Yeho- before the reduction?

                      =========================

                      Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                      By the way, "accurately" is not properly defined as "according to my personal understanding."
                      Never said it was.

                      I'll respect any sincere attempts to dialog, you do a better job on that than Barry, who invariably equivocates and skedaddles, making excuses as he goes.

                      =========================

                      Steven
                      Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-25-17, 04:04 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                        You rule out the possibility of the Ktiv-Kri system? Why?
                        I am interested in how you think it might apply here.
                        Let's use Wikipedia:

                        In such Masoretic texts, the vowel diacritics of the qere (the Masoretic reading) would be placed in the main text, added around the consonantal letters of the ketiv (the written variant to be substituted – even if it contains a completely different number of letters), with a special sign indicating that there was a marginal note for this word.
                        Well, we lack the special sign and the marginal note, but lets go on.

                        If the qere reading is Adonai, there are two vowel problems. The more glaring one .. where is the cholem? (o). And I am talking about the great majority of times we have the tetragram - no cholem .. no vowelization of the qere to read Adonai. And if that is not where you are going with the qere/ketiv theory, then share exactly what is your application?

                        Thanks!

                        ================

                        To be clear, something special is going on with the Masoretic Text and the tetragram, a careful analysis should make what it is clear.

                        Adonai and Elohim Vowel Replacement
                        Chris W. Clark

                        https://www.facebook.com/note.php?no...53287936248935

                        ================

                        Steven

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          The case of the missing cholem.

                          This has been noted by others, e.g.:

                          Gesenius hypothesized that the vowels of Adownai were perpetually placed with the consonants of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) to form Yehovah (66 and 300). More recently, a number of problems with Gesenius’ theory have been pointed out. One significant issue is that in both the Aleppo and Leningrad codices, the Tetragrammaton is most frequently pointed not with sheva, holem, qamets, but with sheva, and qamets only. - Ren Manetti, The Origins of Adonai in the Hebrew Scriptures
                          From an historical standpoint, surely the important issue here is the manuscripts, not later printed editions with Jehovah. And the manuscripts simply contradict the Adonai qere theory.

                          Another qere - shema? One that mysteriously vanished from use and had zero recognition? Even if you ignore the history, this still runs up against those pesky cases where the cholem is there, in 100 and more manuscripts checked so far. An ultra-difficult theory.

                          So what is the actual qere-ketiv theory? How does the Adonai theory avoid getting shipwrecked by the case of the missing cholem?

                          And if the majority of cases in the manuscripts have YeHVah as the actual straight reading text, how would that work to protect the divine name if the divine name was the very close Yahvah? Hmmm...

                          Tetragrammaton of God's Name in Hebrew
                          Chris Clark
                          https://www.facebook.com/notes/chris...3288316068935/

                          The Name is written as יְהוָה or YeHVaH in most instances in Masoretic codices.
                          YeHVeH would be an awfully weak protection of the name if the name was actually YaHVeh . So we want a theory that actually fits the facts on the ground.

                          Steven

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                            The case of the missing cholem.

                            This has been noted by others, e.g.:

                            From an historical standpoint, surely the important issue here is the manuscripts, not later printed editions with Jehovah. And the manuscripts simply contradict the Adonai qere theory.

                            Another qere - shema? One that mysteriously vanished from use and had zero recognition? Even if you ignore the history, this still runs up against those pesky cases where the cholem is there, in 100 and more manuscripts checked so far. An ultra-difficult theory.

                            So what is the actual qere-ketiv theory? How does the Adonai theory avoid getting shipwrecked by the case of the missing cholem?

                            And if the majority of cases in the manuscripts have YeHVah as the actual straight reading text, how would that work to protect the divine name if the divine name was the very close Yahvah? Hmmm...

                            YeHVeH would be an awfully weak protection of the name if the name was actually YaHVeh . So we want a theory that actually fits the facts on the ground.

                            Steven
                            Not exactly the forum by which this discussion should be had, but I'm still happy to see the responses here.

                            I see a few points probably gained by Steven, and Barry's initial snub not right. There MAY be a connection to Jupiter, however odd this may seem initially. But Jameson hasn't really responded too seriously yet. Comes down to Masoretic "qere and ketiv" and what practice was implemented? Is that were this debate is leading toward?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Zohar affirms the cholem in the tetragram

                              Tetragrammaton of God's Name in Hebrew
                              Chris Clark
                              https://www.facebook.com/notes/chris...3288316068935/


                              Christopher Clark is excellent on the visuals, he has seven pics there of different vowel pointings with the tetragram letters, with descriptions, so we might use the unpointed first picture as #1 יְהֹוָה, and number the seven from his page #1-7.

                              Originally posted by nothead View Post
                              Comes down to Masoretic "qere and ketiv" and what practice was implemented? Is that were this debate is leading toward?
                              The qere-ketiv theory was apparently created looking at the printed editions that had Yehovah #3, not the manuscripts, whose most common form is Yehveh #2, with only an occasional remnant Yehovah. Thus, I think the theory is pretty much defunct, now that the manuscripts have been given their rightful due (including the Aleppo and Leningrad.)

                              Also, why would a name Yahweh ( == Yahveh) be hidden by writing Yehweh? Far too close for comfort, if that was the goal. So the Yahweh theory again goes down the tubes based on the actual historic Masoretic Text manuscript evidence.

                              And I mentioned earlier that Nehemia has supported the research into the actual manuscripts by also looking at the Hebraics over the centuries. He finds close to zero support for Yahweh, and support for Yehovah in many places. Here is an example from the Zohar in the comments from the above. Remember, with the Tetragram having a cholem, all the yahweh theories can be totally discarded.

                              ======================

                              Zohar evidences discussed on the same thread.

                              Rick Dunkel - March 5, 2016
                              Confirmation of the vowels is found in (of all places) the Tikkunei Zohar by "rabbi" Shimon Ben Yochai/Tikkun #70-48.

                              Obadvah Gershom - Sept 25, 2015
                              It's worth mentioning that the Zohar confirms that IT IS the cholam which the Masoretic scribes omitted from the Tetragrammaton.

                              Chris W. Clark
                              Here's a section from the Zohar: https://books.google.com/books?id=4J1EAAAAcAAJ&pg=PT521
                              Translation:
                              “The letters, arranged properly, [YUD HEI VAV HEI], ascend through the [dot of] Cholam (the vowel O), which is a keter (crown), above the four letters”...
                              Another passage says:
                              The secret of the vowels of YHVH is the secret of the word “only in your fathers did YHVH set his love (chashak)” “because he has set his love (chashak) upon me, therefore will I deliver him.” (Ps 94:14)...
                              Chashak, translated here as "love", is an acronym according to this secret for: cholam, sheva, kamatz (the three vowels in the name, although not in that order).
                              ... Nehemia shared that with me on jan 21, 2015 so I shared it in my "Proclaim The Name" note.

                              ======================

                              The Hebraics confirm the cholem (cholam and cholem both are commonly used) in the tetragram again and again.

                              And thus, yahweh is gone.

                              Psalm 83:18 (AV)
                              That men may know that thou,
                              whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
                              art the most high over all the earth.


                              The first edition of the AV-1611 even had the tetragram with the full and proper vowels on the cover or a front, top middle.

                              ======================

                              Steven
                              Last edited by Steven Avery; 09-26-17, 05:00 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                What amazing argumentation! I'm convinced. How about you, Barry?
                                I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                                Comment

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