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Acts 2:3

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  • Acts 2:3

    Following scripture came to my remembrance:

    καὶ ὤφθησαν αὐτοῖς διαμεριζόμεναι γλῶσσαι ὡσεὶ πυρός, καὶ ἐκάθισεν ἐφ’ ἕνα ἕκαστον αὐτῶν,
    Acts 2:3

    Here the holy spirit came in the form of tongues of fire. Notice the singular form of the verb to describe these firey tongues. Clearly the holy spirit is not a person but the power of God .

  • #2
    Originally posted by John Milton View Post
    Following scripture came to my remembrance:



    Acts 2:3

    Here the holy spirit came in the form of tongues of fire. Notice the singular form of the verb to describe these firey tongues. Clearly the holy spirit is not a person but the power of God .
    The original analogy was the Ruach of YHWH. Hard to bridge the comprehension gap between a non-living thing and a Living Being, especially considered an EQUAL Being of YHWH.
    Also especially that this Spirit or Ruach is not DERIVATIVE of YHWH the Breather.

    Jesus' analogy of wind, and the vision at Jesus' conversion of "like a dove alighting" both convey a somewhat LESSER thing than another one God.

    And it is funny that you can SAY as with Jesus "another one God," but you cannot technically say Jesus or the Holy Spirit is "a God." You can say any of the Three IS God, or even THE GOD,
    but not "A GOD."

    All the "a" does is differentiate (give option for) the Persons when the Trin-view is filter. The self-contradiction is entirely and intrinsically evident. To be less definitive in light of equality and then to define the
    "the" in THE GOD as definitive is now defining God as a thing more than "A" who. The essence, nature, ontology. "A GOD" should be correct because if the HE or WHO is not defined when
    coming to man, he must define it as a non-definitive option among their "who's." Same thing for the Greeks and Romans. "AN UNKNOWN GOD" was "THE UNKNOWN GOD."
    Shema will change the Christian World.

    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by nothead View Post

      The original analogy was the Ruach of YHWH. Hard to bridge the comprehension gap between a non-living thing and a Living Being, especially considered an EQUAL Being of YHWH.
      Also especially that this Spirit or Ruach is not DERIVATIVE of YHWH the Breather.

      Jesus' analogy of wind, and the vision at Jesus' conversion of "like a dove alighting" both convey a somewhat LESSER thing than another one God.

      And it is funny that you can SAY as with Jesus "another one God," but you cannot technically say Jesus or the Holy Spirit is "a God." You can say any of the Three IS God, or even THE GOD,
      but not "A GOD."

      All the "a" does is differentiate (give option for) the Persons when the Trin-view is filter. The self-contradiction is entirely and intrinsically evident. To be less definitive in light of equality and then to define the
      "the" in THE GOD as definitive is now defining God as a thing more than "A" who. The essence, nature, ontology. "A GOD" should be correct because if the HE or WHO is not defined when
      coming to man, he must define it as a non-definitive option among their "who's." Same thing for the Greeks and Romans. "AN UNKNOWN GOD" was "THE UNKNOWN GOD."
      I agree. “He” is ( they are!) the same tri-type unified “God” in another guise.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by John Milton View Post
        Following scripture came to my remembrance:



        Acts 2:3

        Here the holy spirit came in the form of tongues of fire. Notice the singular form of the verb to describe these firey tongues. Clearly the holy spirit is not a person but the power of God .
        As I like to say repeatedly, no one ever worships the Holy Spirit directly in Bible, or prays to it. The INTIMATE aspect of Spirit is what caused men to see it as Person, a "person" of itself (himself).
        Originally the Paraclete, considered a Comforter. The Jewish View was that Spirit reflects the countenance of YHWH, in fervor, succor, intimate love or divine strength. A warrior in Spirit was a formidable warrior indeed as Samson symbolized (his hair). A mother in Spirit heard from angels (Mary and Elizabeth). A prophet in Spirit prophesied the Word of the Father.

        And despite the single verse "implying" the Spirit IS "LORD" this is the Father as LORD not the Spirit itself as LORD. No one calls the Spirit "LORD/Holy Spirit" to the SPIRIT. They instead saw
        the Spirit as God's manifest medium of communication, unction to function, inspiration of the single Person. 2 Cor 3:

        17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

        It was not a statement of Being, God-being. Instead, this statement says Adonai, the Father is the Source, Sender, and Character of Spirit, the Wizard behind the Curtain (Spirit/Oz).

        I believe the Father sends different SPIRIT(s) unto men in accordance to His countenance. With possibly the faith Spirit/spirit of a previous saint in the case of John the Baptist. "Elijah had come," sayeth Jesus in reference to John, but when asked if he "was Elijah" he said "no." What other option is there, but that Spirit for John conveyed the spirit of Elijah, IMMERSED
        in that specific saintliness Elijah had?

        In the case of the Paraclete, signified by the flames flickering in the upper room, a specific Spirit which inspired Peter to speak of the Christ for the whole assembly. In the case of Paul, harbored
        in the Shekinah light which blinded him, the Christ as Speaker of Spirit, who is the one giving testimony of Paraclete, "Abba, Father."

        In mercy, in intimacy and love, or in power, or in a Word (in accordance to present-day circumstances, time and place). The Messengers of God find joy in the messaging, and the angels were
        considered closer to YHWH by this station of service itself, the prophets our own "messengers."

        Those immersed in the Paraclete would say the glorious Word and do the exact and ideal will of God in time and place. Ananias to Paul. Peter to the other Ananias and Sapphira. Paul to the people. Stephen to the Jews. So many times said in NT the saints in right time and place BEING saints in action and saying.
        Shema will change the Christian World.

        Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

        Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

        Comment


        • #5
          Profoundly informative post nothead, I agree with most of it thought would take issue with a couple of your statements, perhaps from a technical standpoint.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Milton View Post
            Profoundly informative post nothead, I agree with most of it thought would take issue with a couple of your statements, perhaps from a technical standpoint.
            Iron sharpens iron so be technical about it. Steel was developed later, and you may make me think about something. Sharp minds in other words, are not the conditions here usually.

            Holy Spirit in Bible is the least understood subject of all. How "he" got entered into Trinity is still an ore I've not completely mined.
            Last edited by nothead; 08-14-18, 10:35 AM.
            Shema will change the Christian World.

            Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

            Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nothead View Post

              Iron sharpens iron so be technical about it. Steel was developed later, and you may make me think about something. Sharp minds in other words, are not the conditions here usually.

              Holy Spirit in Bible is the least understood subject of all. How "he" got entered into Trinity is still an ore I've not completely mined.
              The following for instance:

              “I believe the Father sends different SPIRIT(s) unto men in accordance to His countenance.”

              Are you saying there are multiple Holy Spirits ?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                The following for instance:

                “I believe the Father sends different SPIRIT(s) unto men in accordance to His countenance.”

                Are you saying there are multiple Holy Spirits ?
                No..I am saying the same Spirit has different characteristics. I do not believe the Spirit sent unto John the Baptist was the Paraclete. But, full of Spirit he exemplified the fervor
                and prophetic character of Elijah.

                Spirit can even contain more than one referent, the REFERENT of God being source, Sender, even Creator of Spirit. God does not present any forms of HIMSELF unto us. We see not God's form
                or hear His audible voice. Just as "legion" was a spirit of many. In the opposite dimension, Spirit can have the character, spirit, even soul of Elijah for John, and Jesus for us.

                But we can channel the SPIRIT of God, and hear voices supernatural, of God or a messenger of God. The Paraclete for me is Jesus' voice, and some will even hear it concretely however
                AUDIBLE it is. Ananias for me heard Jesus' voice as Paul did at his conversion. But this voice of Jesus is in TANDEM with the will and intent of his own God, the Father.
                Shema will change the Christian World.

                Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by nothead View Post

                  No..I am saying the same Spirit has different characteristics. I do not believe the Spirit sent unto John the Baptist was the Paraclete. But, full of Spirit he exemplified the fervor
                  and prophetic character of Elijah.

                  Spirit can even contain more than one referent, the REFERENT of God being source, Sender, even Creator of Spirit. God does not present any forms of HIMSELF unto us. We see not God's form
                  or hear His audible voice. Just as "legion" was a spirit of many. In the opposite dimension, Spirit can have the character, spirit, even soul of Elijah for John, and Jesus for us.

                  But we can channel the SPIRIT of God, and hear voices supernatural, of God or a messenger of God. The Paraclete for me is Jesus' voice, and some will even hear it concretely however
                  AUDIBLE it is. Ananias for me heard Jesus' voice as Paul did at his conversion. But this voice of Jesus is in TANDEM with the will and intent of his own God, the Father.
                  I agree!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                    I agree!
                    In order to have prophets in our midst, we must reform Christianity itself. The anointing of the OT prophets was sporadic, and I've heard it said that before Christ no prophet came for 400 years, until John the Baptist came. This caused a great excitement for that reason, a DROUGHT. Suddenly the rain came. God RAINED His Spirit unto John, and the people wept for joy.

                    Today prophesy is largely dead or compromised. I believe the first two generations of saints had many prophets, even among the elders, and lowly servants in ekklesia. Stephen was not a known
                    leader, but God chose him to do a wonderous deed, to say the Word in his most critical time. Ananias for Paul heard a clear and SPECIFIC word to serve God. Paul was SAID to be chosen to
                    "suffer for my sake." The SAME joy had Paul when he was RELEASED from his bondage to sin, to even murder the saints of God.

                    Reformation of thinking, perceiving, and how to love God is necessary, and the definitions of mainstream view ABOUT this Spirit are awry. NO WONDER prophesy is dead. How can we hear any
                    Word of YHWH if we are worshiping or praying wrongfully? How can we CHANNEL God's Word if we only think ABOUT God in the wrong way? How can we be the genitive INSTRUMENT of God,
                    as the Christ OF God and the Holy Spirit OF God are?

                    Shema is so basic and deemed so important, it holds the KEY to our mishaps in Christian Dogma. There is one God the Father. And He loved Jesus Christ more than any man born.
                    Last edited by nothead; 08-15-18, 10:08 AM.
                    Shema will change the Christian World.

                    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I hate to rain on the nice little mutual admiration society you two have going here, but another explanation for the singular ἐκάθισεν is simply that it's being used in the distributive sense, i.e., a γλῶσσα sat on each one of them. Codex א actually changes this to the plural:

                      και ωφθησαν αυτοις διαμεριζομεναι γλωσσει πυρος και εκαθισαν

                      --International Greek New Testament Project (IGNTP). (2012). Codex Sinaiticus: Septuagint and New Testament (Ac 2:3). Cambridge, UK: The Codex Sinaiticus Project Board.

                      The use of the singular therefore does not support the theological point you wish to make.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
                        I hate to rain on the nice little mutual admiration society you two have going here, but another explanation for the singular ἐκάθισεν is simply that it's being used in the distributive sense, i.e., a γλῶσσα sat on each one of them. Codex א actually changes this to the plural:

                        και ωφθησαν αυτοις διαμεριζομεναι γλωσσει πυρος και εκαθισαν

                        --International Greek New Testament Project (IGNTP). (2012). Codex Sinaiticus: Septuagint and New Testament (Ac 2:3). Cambridge, UK: The Codex Sinaiticus Project Board.

                        The use of the singular therefore does not support the theological point you wish to make.
                        Sealed plural or singular? How does the distributive sense of what God does mitigate my view or Milton's overall theology? Milton made a point about the singular verb, but distribute/sealed
                        for the plural people...sat on each of them...sees the doing as singular or plural? Singular in action, plural in individual utterances?

                        The word SEALED is the same word for the Seal of Promise, given unto those God touches in rebirth. The first two gen saints had this outpouring DOMINANTLY. Even the low servants
                        knew of this "seal" as the GATEWAY to close relationship with...God...HIMself.

                        Eph 1

                        13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

                        CLOVEN tongues, PARTED tongues, PLURAL tongues. Flames on EACH of them, sealed in God. Sealed can be singular as to action, plural as to manifestation.
                        Shema will change the Christian World.

                        Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                        Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nothead View Post

                          Sealed plural or singular? How does the distributive sense of what God does mitigate my view or Milton's overall theology? Milton made a point about the singular verb, but distribute/sealed
                          for the plural people...sat on each of them...sees the doing as singular or plural? Singular in action, plural in individual utterances?

                          The word SEALED is the same word for the Seal of Promise, given unto those God touches in rebirth. The first two gen saints had this outpouring DOMINANTLY. Even the low servants
                          knew of this "seal" as the GATEWAY to close relationship with...God...HIMself.

                          Eph 1

                          13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

                          CLOVEN tongues, PARTED tongues, PLURAL tongues. Flames on EACH of them, sealed in God. Sealed can be singular as to action, plural as to manifestation.
                          What does irrelevant information have to do with anyone's theology? Ψευδομίλτονος made a big deal about the singular verb, and he was simply wrong in the implication of it. He can argue his theology on other grounds until he succumbs to cyanosis (as he inevitably will), but nothing in Acts 2:3 supports his conclusion.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
                            I hate to rain on the nice little mutual admiration society you two have going here, but another explanation for the singular ἐκάθισεν is simply that it's being used in the distributive sense, i.e., a γλῶσσα sat on each one of them. Codex א actually changes this to the plural:

                            και ωφθησαν αυτοις διαμεριζομεναι γλωσσει πυρος και εκαθισαν

                            --International Greek New Testament Project (IGNTP). (2012). Codex Sinaiticus: Septuagint and New Testament (Ac 2:3). Cambridge, UK: The Codex Sinaiticus Project Board.

                            The use of the singular therefore does not support the theological point you wish to make.
                            The “distributive sense” is even worse for the notion that Holy Spirit is a “person.” I actually prefer this understanding!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                              The “distributive sense” is even worse for the notion that Holy Spirit is a “person.” I actually prefer this understanding!
                              So you agree that your original point based on the "grammar" of the text was invalid? Good.

                              Comment

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