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Mounce and the natural gender of the Holy Spirit.

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  • Mounce and the natural gender of the Holy Spirit.

    Basic Greek online free lessons,

    https://www.billmounce.com/newtestam...over-chapter-5
    approx. 20:37.

    Transcribed.

    Greek does not follow natural gender in the vast majority of it's words, okay...so make sure you have in your mind the distinction between natural gender, where the gender of the word is reflecting what it actually MEANS, and grammatical gender where it's again, it's a...certain gender for...other reasons, uh, eh...you know only the most common examples is the word for Spirit, uh when the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit the Greek word is "pneuma." It's neuter. And so there's the tendency, I mean I've heard some people say "Well, the Holy Spirit is an IT, ...well we know the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Trinity, we know that the theological language is that he, he has PERSONALITY and so we don't say "IT has personality," we say, "HE has personality."

    "Well, wait a minute, pneuma is neuter."

    Well the fact that pneuma is neuter, the word for Spirit has nothing to do with it's MEANING, it's a grammatical gender. The fact of the matter is, that all Greek words that end in "ma" "ma" is neuter regardless of what they mean, okay?

    Stop.

    LOL. Talk about the presup being the basis for the language pronoun gender sir. See what's going on here?

    The OT analogies of Ruach, the breath of YHWH, or wind, Jesus' own analogy do not lend to the immediate view that a pronoun describing the noun is the natural gender "he."

    Mounce has lent a theological filter over the most basic language inflections. What he said is true, grammatical gender is not the same thing as natural gender, but he stumbles above and stutters over the "reason" why in the Greek, gender IS assigned to nouns. Quite likely in my mind there ARE no reasons and these are arbitrary assignments. Secondly what this means is that the assigned gender "HE" for English translations is actually debatable for those who do NOT presuppose the Spirit is any Equal Member of the Trinity.

    Ironically he did the same thing for the English "hurricanes," stumbling and stuttering over the concept of this noun being thought of historically as feminine, and previously only assigning feminine names for hurricanes. I doubt hurricanes were EVER thought of as "she's" or "hers."
    Last edited by nothead; 11-18-18, 07:27 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by nothead View Post
    Basic Greek online free lessons,

    https://www.billmounce.com/newtestam...over-chapter-5
    approx. 20:37.

    Transcribed.

    Greek does not follow natural gender in the vast majority of it's words, okay...so make sure you have in your mind the distinction between natural gender, where the gender of the word is reflecting what it actually MEANS, and grammatical gender where it's again, it's a...certain gender for...other reasons, uh, eh...you know only the most common examples is the word for Spirit, uh when the Bible talks about the Holy Spirit the Greek word is "pneuma." It's neuter. And so there's the tendency, I mean I've heard some people say "Well, the Holy Spirit is an IT, ...well we know the Holy Spirit is the third member of the Trinity, we know that the theological language is that he, he has PERSONALITY and so we don't say "IT has personality," we say, "HE has personality."

    "Well, wait a minute, pneuma is neuter."

    Well the fact that pneuma is neuter, the word for Spirit has nothing to do with it's MEANING, it's a grammatical gender. The fact of the matter is, that all Greek words that end in "ma" "ma" is neuter regardless of what they mean, okay?

    Stop.

    LOL. Talk about the presup being the basis for the language pronoun gender sir. See what's going on here?

    The OT analogies of Ruach, the breath of YHWH, or wind, Jesus' own analogy do not lend to the immediate view that a pronoun describing the noun is the natural gender "he."

    Mounce has lent a theological filter over the most basic language inflections. What he said is true, grammatical gender is not the same thing as natural gender, but he stumbles above and stutters over the "reason" why in the Greek, gender IS assigned to nouns. Quite likely in my mind there ARE no reasons and these are arbitrary assignments. Secondly what this means is that the assigned gender "HE" for English translations is actually debatable for those who do NOT presuppose the Spirit is any Equal Member of the Trinity.

    Ironically he did the same thing for the English "hurricanes," stumbling and stuttering over the concept of this noun being thought of historically as feminine, and previously only assigning feminine names for hurricanes. I doubt hurricanes were EVER thought of as "she's" or "hers."
    So then we establish the presup, Trinity to be the reason WHY Mounce considers the natural gender of Spirit to be masculine, and all pronouns NATURALLY corresponding as a "he" or "him" in the third person, and no other reason mentioned. He goes ON in the next section of grammar to blog about Jn 16:13

    ὅταν δὲ ἔλθῃ ἐκεῖνος, τὸ πνεῦμα τῆς ἀληθείας, ὁδηγήσει ὑμᾶς ⸂ἐν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ πάσῃ⸃, οὐ γὰρ λαλήσει ἀφ’ ἑαυτοῦ, ἀλλ’ ὅσα ⸀ἀκούσει λαλήσει, καὶ τὰ ἐρχόμενα ἀναγγελεῖ ὑμῖν.

    The first pronoun, "he" is according to Mounce, an intentional masculine pronoun, when the noun is neuter (pneuma). "Ekeinos."

    But oddly enough, Mounce has not apparently READ the passage to consider why John did this.

    The Spirit is a medium, power, force, or dynamic of communication of God to man, and the analogies in OT and by Jesus are "ruach" (breath of YHWH) and "wind." But the SPEAKER is Jesus for the Paraclete, which does not speak FROM itself.

    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he (it) will guide you into all truth: for he (it) shall not speak of (from) himself; but whatsoever he (it) shall hear, [that] shall he (it) speak: and he (it) will shew you things to come. 13

    So then this is the confusing aspect of Spirit. In the Christian reality, the Holy Spirit is the medium by which God communicates, empowers, anoints and speaks through. But the Speaker is not God either, directly but Jesus, as it was for Paul Silas at his conversion. God INSTALLED Jesus in the Paraclete just as Elijah was in the Spirit unto John the Baptist. Jesus for me then, is the speaker of this testimony, "Abba, Father." Not Elijah, not an angel or messenger, not a saint, but the second-place elohim in heaven, Christ Jesus. Jesus was MADE a "life-giving Spirit."

    This Spirit speaks not from ITSELF, since it is not a Living Being. It speaks the testimony of Jesus himself, who is somehow, someway installed, harboring in the Paraclete.

    So the transition by John in my view to pronoun this neuter "pneuma" is because the speaker is the masculine gender Jesus. The meaning of the verse itself clues us to this.

    Presently this is my theory but I am open to hearing others, especially unitarian theories.

    Comment


    • #3
      The Holy Spirit according to Jesus was to be another person like Him, but not identical to Him, as the Spirit talked, has emotions, can be quenched and grieved, and peter in Acts called Him very God!

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by YeshuaFan View Post
        The Holy Spirit according to Jesus was to be another person like Him, but not identical to Him, as the Spirit talked, has emotions, can be quenched and grieved, and peter in Acts called Him very God!
        VERY God sir? BERRY GOD sir?

        The Holy Spirit just so happens to be the closest we get to God and His Person. If the Holy Spirit of YHWH was EVER thought of as an equal Partner sir...the OT would have been substantially reconfigured. For instance, no offshoot sideswipe about the Holy Spirit HOVERING. It was CREATING alongside YHWH sir.

        The little known entity which rarely crops up must be your WALDO in the FOREST sir. Secret God of the Jews perhaps? Nevertheless this entity inspired the PROPHETS to speak the Word of God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by nothead View Post

          VERY God sir? BERRY GOD sir?

          The Holy Spirit just so happens to be the closest we get to God and His Person. If the Holy Spirit of YHWH was EVER thought of as an equal Partner sir...the OT would have been substantially reconfigured. For instance, no offshoot sideswipe about the Holy Spirit HOVERING. It was CREATING alongside YHWH sir.

          The little known entity which rarely crops up must be your WALDO in the FOREST sir. Secret God of the Jews perhaps? Nevertheless this entity inspired the PROPHETS to speak the Word of God.
          Peter called the Holy Spirit God, as did Paul, and the Holy Spirit has His own mind, will and emotions!

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by YeshuaFan View Post

            Peter called the Holy Spirit God, as did Paul, and the Holy Spirit has His own mind, will and emotions!
            It was John who said "God is spirit."

            John 4:24: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

            Reading this carefully, we must worship IN GOD sir? Yes, Spirit-speaking. No, ontologically speaking. It is not God's ontology in us.

            The rest you say is mere speculation. Convinced by your historical peers and leaders, but not true sir.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nothead View Post

              It was John who said "God is spirit."

              John 4:24: “God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

              Reading this carefully, we must worship IN GOD sir? Yes, Spirit-speaking. No, ontologically speaking. It is not God's ontology in us.

              The rest you say is mere speculation. Convinced by your historical peers and leaders, but not true sir.
              Peter called the Holy Spirit God, as did also Paul and Jesus themselves though!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by YeshuaFan View Post

                Peter called the Holy Spirit God, as did also Paul and Jesus themselves though!
                They all called JESUS God too! Whatta lark YeshuaFan. BOOL baby.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bill Mounce in his flash-cards

                  “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.”
                  https://quizlet.com/120578393/greek-...e-flash-cards/
                  This sounds like a rationale for shifting a pronoun for which the referent is pneuma to masculine. Since Mounce is saying you should search for a natural gender (e.g. in writing Greek.). Clearly, the Greek New Testament has no such shift, as has been discussed on this board.

                  Outside the occasinoal constructio ad sensum involving e.g. a girl, or a group of men, what would be the normative usage of this Mounce Rule? Are you supposed to search for the natural gender of a hurricane? a raccoon? Your thoughts? Appreciated.

                  In another spot Mounce seems to apply such shifts to translation to a target language. This can be controversial, since the decision about natural gender can be based on doctrine, but it is definitely more sensible than the quote above.

                  Gender and number of a substantival adjective are determined by the noun that it is replacing. You should follow natural gender in deciding how to translate and what words you need to add to fill out the context. Feminine adjectives would be given a feminine gender and masculine adjectives would be given a masculine gender.
                  http://www.capamalawi.org/wp-content.../BBG-Notes.pdf
                  Originally posted by nothead View Post
                  Secondly what this means is that the assigned gender "HE" for English translations is actually debatable for those who do NOT presuppose the Spirit is any Equal Member of the Trinity.

                  Ironically he did the same thing for the English "hurricanes," stumbling and stuttering over the concept of this noun being thought of historically as feminine, and previously only assigning feminine names for hurricanes. I doubt hurricanes were EVER thought of as "she's" or "hers."
                  The AV is an English Bible that does not shift pronouns for pneuma.

                  As for hurricanes, they were given only feminine names for some decades by the US Weather service.
                  Last edited by Steven Avery; 01-20-19, 12:57 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    Bill Mounce in his flash-cards


                    This sounds like a rationale for shifting a pronoun for which the referent is pneuma to masculine. Since Mounce is saying you should search for a natural gender (e.g. in writing Greek.). Clearly, the Greek New Testament has no such shift, as has been discussed on this board.

                    Outside the occasinoal constructio ad sensum involving e.g. a girl, or a group of men, what would be the normative usage of this Mounce Rule? Are you supposed to search for the natural gender of a hurricane? a raccoon? Your thoughts? Appreciated.

                    In another spot Mounce seems to apply such shifts to translation to a target language. This can be controversial, since the decision about natural gender can be based on doctrine, but it is definitely more sensible than the quote above.



                    The AV is an English Bible that does not shift pronouns for pneuma.

                    As for hurricanes, they were given only feminine names for some decades by the US Weather service.
                    Just wondering if you've actually started to learn the language or if you are still at the "I don't quite know the alphabet yet" stage? At any rate, there are any number of nouns in Greek referring to people which are technically neuter, words related to children being especially popular, τέκνον, τεκνίον, παιδίον, κοράσιον, θυγάτριον, μειράκιον (these generally have a diminutive and sometimes pejorative force):

                    b. Exception to the Rule of Natural Gender.—Diminutives in -ιον are neuter (199 d), as τὸ ἀνθρώπιον manikin (ὁ ἄνθρωπος man), τὸ παιδίον little child (male or female, ὁ or ἡ παῖς child), τὸ γύναιον little woman (ἡ γυνἠ woman). Also the words τέκνον, τέκος child (strictly ‘thing born’), ἀνδράποδον captive.

                    Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (p. 45). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.

                    Nouns which are technically neuter but whose referent have a natural gender may have modifiers which take the natural gender (the famous "constructio ad sensum"):

                    1013. Construction according to the Sense (926 a).—The real, not the grammatical, gender often determines the agreement: ὦ φίλτατʼ, ὦ περισσὰ τῑμηθεὶς τέκνον O dearest, O greatly honoured child E. Tro. 735 (this use of the attributive adjective is poetical), τὰ μειράκια πρὸς ἀλλήλους διαλεγόμενοι the youths conversing with one another P. Lach. 180 e, ταῦτʼ ἔλεγεν ἡ ἀναιδὴς αὕτη κεφαλή, ἐξεληλυθώς this shameless fellow spoke thus when he came out D. 21. 117.

                    Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (p. 271). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.

                    So, while Mounce may indeed have a theological or apologetical motivation for his emphasis, he also has a real linguistic basis for his assertions.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
                      So, while Mounce may indeed have a theological or apologetical motivation for his emphasis, he also has a real linguistic basis for his assertions.
                      You basically simply gave support for my post, where I emphasized that he seemed to be alluding to constructio ad sensum.

                      Let's keep it simple.
                      Do you agree with this statement?

                      “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.”
                      Do pronouns in Greek follow natural gender?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                        You basically simply gave support for my post, where I emphasized that he seemed to be alluding to constructio ad sensum.

                        Let's keep it simple.
                        Do you agree with this statement?



                        Do pronouns in Greek follow natural gender?
                        Sometimes. Sometimes they follow grammatical gender. Plenty of examples of both.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
                          Sometimes. Sometimes they follow grammatical gender. Plenty of examples of both.
                          Which is more frequent?

                          Mounce is stating the above as the grammatical norm.

                          Do you agree?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                            Which is more frequent?

                            Mounce is stating the above as the grammatical norm.

                            Do you agree?
                            I don't know, never having done or seen a statistical analysis, and I don't really care. It's a non-controversial issue, and only matters to people who think it somehow helps them out theologically.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This is the good Edit per mod dance.

                              So would you teach this in your classes?

                              “In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.”
                              Is there any other Greek grammarian who gives this teaching?
                              At any time, in any book?
                              Last edited by Moderator11; 01-25-19, 11:51 PM.

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