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The Missing Cholam

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  • Originally posted by S Walch View Post
    As I was responding straight after your post asking me about your second rendition of Psalm 114, that I was referring to that was obvious.

    Not my fault you have comprehension issues.


    Nope. They differentiate. There is no 'stop' after the bet without dagesh. That's because they are pronouncing the continuous consonant /v/, and they blend into the following linked letter.

    This site is very informative, even for myself: https://pronuncian.com/introduction-to-linking/
    You are making up nonsense. In order to hear if a “b” sound or a “v” sound is being uttered, one hears for just that, the /B/ or /V/ sound. You are able to tell when I am uttering the same Hebrew word with a “b” or a “v” sound, but when it comes to the Yemeni, you suddenly can’t. There is some sort of strong chain of binding which is arresting your mind and hearing on this score.

    Comment


    • No bind on my mind, JM. Your arrogance has infected you since day one.

      Stay in your delusion that those Yeminites are pronouncing hard /b/'s throughout.

      You have my pity.

      Comment


      • Now, this Yemeni pronounces bet without dagesh as /v/ and not as /b/,

        Comment


        • Some notes:

          ariel Weber

          Most Mizrahi countries pronounced the letter 'taw' (commonly known as 'tav' or 'taf') like the letter 't' always. The only to exceptions I know of were Yemen and Iraq, where it was pronounced as 'th' as in the word 'thing,' or the IPA '?.'

          Again, regarding the letter 'dalet,' only Yemen (always) and Iraq (only when pronouncing Hashem's name and the 'dalet' of the last word of the 1st line of the Shema) pronounced it like the 'th' sound of the word 'then,' or the IPA '?'. The people of these 2 countries, baruch Hashem, kept the messora alive of how to 'properly' make the 'dalet' of the word "Ehadh'(commonly written as 'echad') long, as Rabbi Aqiva did as he was dying, as is told about in the last chapter of Masechet Berachot.

          Although I have to take issue with Mr. Weber's following comment:

          I would also like to note that the 'bet' without a dot was pronounced like the 'bet' with a dot in all Arabic speaking countries except Yemen, where this sound was preserved. (Arabic, also, does not have a 'v' sound.)
          He should have qualified his statement by saying that at least some Yemeni Jews pronounce 'bet' without a dot like the 'bet' with a dot.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by John Milton View Post
            Now, this Yemeni pronounces bet without dagesh as /v/ and not as /b/,
            Yes. As do the others you've posted videos of.

            You can clearly hear the exact same /v/ sound in his pronunciation as you can their's.

            I like this reading of Psalm 22. He's got a good tone in his pronunciation.

            Originally posted by John Milton
            He should have qualified his statement by saying that at least some Yemeni Jews pronounce 'bet' without a dot like the 'bet' with a dot.
            Or, maybe it's Wikipedia that's wrong, JM? Having found where you were getting all these statements of "Ariel Weber" from here, they clearly know all about it, and are vastly more qualified to give statements than you are.

            You have believed a falsehood all along.
            Last edited by S Walch; 02-10-19, 08:34 AM. Reason: there -> their

            Comment


            • Originally posted by S Walch View Post
              Yes. As do the others you've posted videos of.

              You can clearly hear the exact same /v/ sound in his pronunciation as you can there's.

              I like this reading of Psalm 22. He's got a good tone in his pronunciation.


              Or, maybe it's Wikipedia that's wrong, JM? Having found where you were getting all these statements of "Ariel Weber" from here, they clearly know all about it, and are vastly more qualified to give statements than you are.
              I'm afraid not.


              You have believed a falsehood all along.
              Those that believe God became a man are guilty of above.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by John Milton View Post
                I'm afraid not.
                *sighs*

                Ah dear.

                Originally posted by John Milton
                Those that believe God became a man are guilty of above.
                Nothing to do with the topic at hand. Is an ad hominem. And is also not something I have stated agreement or disagreement on. Again, just a pointless comment used to distract from the real truth: Yeminite Hebrew distinguishes between hard and soft ב.

                I've added a 'citation needed' comment to the Wikipedia article about the pronunciation of Yeminite Hebrew. There was no reference at all for the statement that "Some dialects (e.g. Sharab) do not differentiate between bṯ/bet with dāḡēš/dageš and without it." There is no reference at all to where this understanding has come from.

                Seems to me like it was someone's fantasy, misleading those that have read it, and believed it, and now apparently can't hear the clearly distinguishable /v/ sound in Yeminite Hebrew pronunciation.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by S Walch View Post
                  *sighs*

                  Ah dear.


                  Nothing to do with the topic at hand. Is an ad hominem. And is also not something I have stated agreement or disagreement on. Again, just a pointless comment used to distract from the real truth: Yeminite Hebrew distinguishes between hard and soft ב.

                  I've added a 'citation needed' comment to the Wikipedia article about the pronunciation of Yeminite Hebrew. There was no reference at all for the statement that "Some dialects (e.g. Sharab) do not differentiate between bṯ/bet with dāḡēš/dageš and without it." There is no reference at all to where this understanding has come from.

                  Seems to me like it was someone's fantasy, misleading those that have read it, and believed it, and now apparently can't hear the clearly distinguishable /v/ sound in Yeminite Hebrew pronunciation.
                  The fact that human beings can be convinced that a falsehood is a truth has everything to do with the topic. It's the degree to which one is deceived which can destroy a soul.

                  If it turns out that you're right about the bet without dagesh here, it is but a footnote , and I was somehow convinced that something false is true. Though I doubt that this is the case. .But regardless, it's not a life threatening issue. However if it turns out that God is not a Triunity and the Jesus is not God , then you were convinced of the truth of a horrible lie while you lived on earth, and that leads to eternal destruction .

                  Comment


                  • By the way, I showed the slowed down version of Walchs Audio clips to posters in another forum and this is what I have gotten so far:


                    The slowed-down utterances are so mutilated that it's not possible to make a decent judgment of pronunciation. If you can post the unmodified words, maybe. The music will be a major distraction if you can find a speaker who can just read the text, that would be preferable.

                    LOL,.. and Walch thinks its crystal clear.

                    Comment


                    • It's crystal clear in the normal reading and the slowed down version. I will admit that it's somewhat distracting hearing "uuuuuurrrrrrrrrrvvvvvvvvvvvvve", but you can quite easily hear it.

                      If you want, I can produce not quite so slowed down versions for their hearing pleasure. I don't usually have to slow something down so slowly to get someone to hear things properly.

                      This was a special case though. I was dealing with an utter arrogant numpty.

                      Originally posted by John Milton
                      The fact that human beings ...
                      The vast majority of this post is pointless, and nothing but a strawman.

                      The only pertinent words is that you actually admit that you could, with a slight possibility, be wrong in this instance.

                      Baby steps, JM. Baby steps.

                      Comment


                      • In the normal reading it is very clear that the b sound is being pronounced rather than the v sound. I am able to read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronounciation, you are not. That should really settle the issue.


                        .

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by john milton View Post
                          in the normal reading it is very clear that the b sound is being pronounced rather than the v sound. I am able to read hebrew in the yemeni pronounciation, you are not. That should really settle the issue.


                          .
                          "pronounciation" - lol
                          "That should really settle the issue." - argumentum ad verecundiam
                          I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                          Comment


                          • Heres a poster named Panini:


                            I hear [ʕavɪɛ:] and [jɛvɔ:r] ("v" could be [β]); the file "kevinair" is too far from norms, and nothing sounds like [ v ] or [ b ] (check that you don't have the wrong word). Normally, when you look at the spectrogram, there would be a very rapid and "straight-line" reduction in amplitude for a voiced stop segment, which is lacking here. However, that's based on ordinary speech under clean recording conditions. Still, my eyes and ears say "v" not "b". IMO the evidence is not conclusive, and this is a classic case where you you can't say for sure. Even though it is either [ v ] or [ b ] (Aristotle's first law), you don't have sufficient reason to claim which one it is.

                            Incidentally, the Wiki article on Yemeni Hebrew indicates that bet with and without dagesh is neutralized in some dialect, naming Sharab.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by John Milton View Post
                              Here’s a poster named Panini:

                              I hear [ʕavɪɛ:] and [jɛvɔ:r] ("v" could be [β]); the file "kevinair" is too far from norms, and nothing sounds like [ v ] or [ b ] (check that you don't have the wrong word). Normally, when you look at the spectrogram, there would be a very rapid and "straight-line" reduction in amplitude for a voiced stop segment, which is lacking here. However, that's based on ordinary speech under clean recording conditions. Still, my eyes and ears say "v" not "b". IMO the evidence is not conclusive, and this is a classic case where you you can't say for sure. Even though it is either [ v ] or [ b ] (Aristotle's first law), you don't have sufficient reason to claim which one it is.
                              So, even this Panini person at least admits that they more hear /v/ rather than /b/. Whilst it may not be "conclusive", that is now at least 3 people who hear /v/, as opposed to yourself JM, who says it is "clear" that it's /b/. 3 to 1.

                              You know JM, you could just post a link to this other site that you have asked the question. Could read all the responses then, and not have to expect you to cherry-pick the ones you want us to read.

                              Furthermore, this line above is telling that it's a /v/ and not a /b/:
                              Normally, when you look at the spectrogram, there would be a very rapid and "straight-line" reduction in amplitude for a voiced stop segment, which is lacking here.
                              The "voiced-stop" they're referring to is that which occurs when /b/ is pronounced - the air is stopped, it doesn't continue to be heard. You don't hear a stop when they are pronouncing ב.

                              Incidentally, the Wiki article on Yemeni Hebrew indicates that bet with and without dagesh is neutralized in some dialect, naming Sharab.
                              That it does - it however gives absolutely no source for this statement. Statements without sources are pointless.

                              Originally posted by John Milton
                              I am able to read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronounciation, you are not. That should really settle the issue.
                              Seeing as though we now have a growing amount of people who hear more /v/ as opposed to /b/, then no, you can't read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronunciation.

                              Also, who says I'm not able to read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronunciation? You have absolutely no evidence for or against this statement of yours, so I suggest with all such things where you don't know the actuality, that you remain quiescent.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by S Walch View Post
                                So, even this Panini person at least admits that they more hear /v/ rather than /b/. Whilst it may not be "conclusive", that is now at least 3 people who hear /v/, as opposed to yourself JM, who says it is "clear" that it's /b/. 3 to 1.

                                You know JM, you could just post a link to this other site that you have asked the question. Could read all the responses then, and not have to expect you to cherry-pick the ones you want us to read.

                                Furthermore, this line above is telling that it's a /v/ and not a /b/:
                                Normally, when you look at the spectrogram, there would be a very rapid and "straight-line" reduction in amplitude for a voiced stop segment, which is lacking here.
                                The "voiced-stop" they're referring to is that which occurs when /b/ is pronounced - the air is stopped, it doesn't continue to be heard. You don't hear a stop when they are pronouncing ב.


                                That it does - it however gives absolutely no source for this statement. Statements without sources are pointless.


                                Seeing as though we now have a growing amount of people who hear more /v/ as opposed to /b/, then no, you can't read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronunciation.

                                Also, who says I'm not able to read Hebrew in the Yemeni pronunciation? You have absolutely no evidence for or against this statement of yours, so I suggest with all such things where you don't know the actuality, that you remain quiescent.
                                He says that he can’t be 100% sure if it is “b” or “v.” So it’s only you and Jameson who think it is crystal clear that the Yemeni is uttering v.”

                                You are not able to read Psalm 113 and 114 in ANY pronunciation.


                                Comment

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