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Bill Mounce - "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

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  • Bill Mounce - "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

    Discussion starts here:
    https://forums.carm.org/vb5/forum/th...58#post5782058

    Emphasis added:

    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Bill Mounce in his flash-cards

    "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.
    https://quizlet.com/120578393/greek-...e-flash-cards/

    This sounds like a rationale for shifting a pronoun for which the referent is pneuma to masculine. Since Mounce is saying you should search for a natural gender (e.g. in writing Greek.). Clearly, the Greek New Testament has no such shift, as has been discussed on this board.
    Outside the occasinoal constructio ad sensum involving e.g. a girl, or a group of men, what would be the normative usage of this Mounce Rule? Are you supposed to search for the natural gender of a hurricane? a raccoon? Your thoughts? Appreciated.
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    So, while Mounce may indeed have a theological or apologetical motivation for his emphasis, he also has a real linguistic basis for his assertions.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Do you agree with this statement?
    Do pronouns in Greek follow natural gender?
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    Sometimes. Sometimes they follow grammatical gender. Plenty of examples of both.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Which is more frequent?
    Mounce is stating the above as the grammatical norm.
    Do you agree?
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    I don't know, never having done or seen a statistical analysis, and I don't really care. It's a non-controversial issue, and only matters to people who think it somehow helps them out theologically.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    This is the good old Hofstetter shuffle dance. So would you teach this in your classes?
    Is there any other Greek grammarian who gives this teaching? At any time, in any book?
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    I don't know and I don't care.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    The incorrect statement of Mounce is not a "theological issue" per se, it is simply an errant claim.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    If the Mounce statement were true, then the Greek pronouns for which the referent is an inanimate object (chair, car, sandwich) would always be neuter, the natural gender. Even if the object itself were masculine or feminine grammatical gender.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Here he is actually defining natural gender.

    Basics of Biblical Greek Grammar (2009)
    By William D. Mounce
    https://books.google.com/books?id=AjORURze1xwC&pg=PT54

    .6 Natural gender means lhat a word lakes on the gender of the object it represents. We refer to a rock as an “it” because we do not regard the rock as male or female. But we refer to a man as “he” and a woman as “she.” In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not. ... .
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    I never said anything about statistics...
    Clearly Barry did reference doing a "statistical analysis".
    Is this necessary for determining whether the Bill Mounce quote is accurate?

    "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.

    Do Greek pronouns follow natural gender.
    Are Greek pronouns neuter for chairs, cars, and sandwiches?

    Note: I plan to ignore any off-topic diversions.
    Last edited by 4Him; 01-28-19, 08:31 PM. Reason: No violation

  • #2
    In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not. ... .
    I tend to agree, generally speaking, especially in good precise Koine. For instance take a look at the following:

    καὶ οὐ κρατῶν τὴν Κεφαλήν, ἐξ οὗ πᾶν τὸ σῶμα διὰ τῶν ἁφῶν καὶ συνδέσμων ἐπιχορηγούμενον καὶ συνβιβαζόμενον αὔξει τὴν αὔξησιν τοῦ Θεοῦ.

    The antecedent of the masculine pronoun (οὗ) is a feminine noun (τὴν Κεφαλήν). Had the verse been following grammatical gender rather than natural gender we would have had the feminine pronoun ( ἧς) here .
    Last edited by 4Him; 01-26-19, 02:42 PM. Reason: No violation

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by John Milton View Post
      If Mr. Mounce said that, he really should be pitied.
      Originally posted by John Milton View Post
      I tend to agree, generally speaking,.
      Milton vs. Milton.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post


        Milton vs. Milton.
        I wrote the earlier comment based upon your interpretation of his statement rather than on what he himself had to say in proper context.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Milton View Post
          I wrote the earlier comment based upon your interpretation of his statement rather than on what he himself had to say in proper context.
          Yet I originally showed you the context, on the first thread, when you requested same..

          So how would you teach:

          "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

          Clearly pronouns will generally follow either natural gender or grammatical gender. (If they are the same, of course, we can put aside those cases.)

          Use the masculine and feminine inanimate objects, the common example where natural and grammatical gender differ.

          Under what context would Barry Hofstetter and you teach, as in the quote above, that the general rule is that pronouns follow natural gender?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
            Yet I originally showed you the context, on the first thread, when you requested same..

            So how would you teach:

            "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

            Clearly pronouns will generally follow either natural gender or grammatical gender. Use the masculine and feminine inanimate objects, under what context would Hofstetter or you teach 0that the general rule is that pronouns follow natural gender?
            Not sure what you’re asking. From reading the bible, it seems to me that the pronouns generally follow natural gender. This is especially evident when grammatical gender differs from natural gender I gave you an example earlier on this score. Here’s another example:

            τέκνα μου, οὓς πάλιν ὠδίνω μέχρις οὗ μορφωθῇ Χριστὸς ἐν ὑμῖν·

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
              Yet I originally showed you the context, on the first thread, when you requested same..

              So how would you teach:

              "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

              Clearly pronouns will generally follow either natural gender or grammatical gender. (If they are the same, of course, we can put aside those cases.)

              Use the masculine and feminine inanimate objects, the common example where natural and grammatical gender differ.

              Under what context would Barry Hofstetter and you teach, as in the quote above, that the general rule is that pronouns follow natural gender?
              I'm not sure what you're asking either. You should know that JM isn't qualified to teach Greek.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                I'm not sure what you're asking either. You should know that JM isn't qualified to teach Greek.
                This is all elementary stuff. Logic 101. John Milton does not understand the basic issue, I was just pointing out the contradiction between his two comments.

                Barry Hofstetter dances around
                "I don't care"
                "I don't know"
                "statistical analysis"

                just to avoid acknowledging the falsity of what Bill Mounce wrote.
                A bit funny and sad.

                Even Bill Mounce, if he thought about it, should easily realize that what he states here is simply wrong.

                "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

                Again, logically, this is all very trivial. All you have to consider are the pronouns that are used with inanimate objects that take masculine or feminine gender. If the Bill Mounce statement were true, then those pronouns would be neuter.

                Steven
                Last edited by Steven Avery; 01-29-19, 10:15 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                  This is all elementary stuff. Logic 101. John does not understand the basic issue.

                  Barry Hofstetter dances around
                  "I don't care"
                  "I don't know"
                  "statistical analysis"

                  just to avoid acknowledging the falsity of what Bill Mounce wrote.
                  A bit funny and sad.

                  Even Bill Mounce, if he thought about it, should easily realize that what he states here is simply wrong.

                  Again, logically, this is all very trivial. All you have to consider are the pronouns that are used with inanimate objects that take masculine or feminine gender. If the Bill Mounce statement were true, then those pronouns would be neuter.

                  "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

                  Steven
                  As someone stated in another thread, it is unfair to judge an introductory work by such an exacting standard. During the early stage in the learning process, achievement is often enhanced if the instructor ignores exceptions and unnecessary qualifications to focus on rules and observations that generally hold true. There are times when pedagogy demands it. Try learning physics without simplifying the rules!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                    As someone stated in another thread, it is unfair to judge an introductory work by such an exacting standard. During the early stage in the learning process, achievement is often enhanced if the instructor ignores exceptions and unnecessary qualifications to focus on rules and observations that generally hold true.
                    Do you think that Greek pronouns match natural gender except when there are special exceptions?

                    Do you say that the statement from Bill Mounce is generally true?

                    "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                      Do you think that Greek pronouns match natural gender except when there are special exceptions?

                      Do you say that the statement from Bill Mounce is generally true?

                      "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender..."
                      "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.If this is the quote that you are referring to, I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't say pronouns "always" follow natural gender and, based solely upon my reading of Greek, I would be comfortable saying that pronouns follow natural gender more often than not. However, it wasn't my intent to comment on the veracity of the statement. I only noted that there is a sometimes a difference between an error and imprecision.

                      But...since you state with conviction that Mounce is wrong, surely you have verified that Mounce himself said this and this is not a student's quizlet paraphrase of something that Mounce wrote? And if you can state confidently that he is wrong, you must have then taken into consideration the context of the quote, the book from which it was taken, and the data that would support or refute his claim, right? In other words, why are you saying that Mounce is wrong if you don't know the answer to your question: "Do Greek pronouns follow natural gender"? or why are you asking that question if you already know the answer?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                        "In Greek, pronouns follow natural gender but nouns for the most part do not.If this is the quote that you are referring to, I don't see anything wrong with it. It doesn't say pronouns "always" follow natural gender and, based solely upon my reading of Greek, I would be comfortable saying that pronouns follow natural gender more often than not. However, it wasn't my intent to comment on the veracity of the statement. I only noted that there is a sometimes a difference between an error and imprecision.

                        But...since you state with conviction that Mounce is wrong, surely you have verified that Mounce himself said this and this is not a student's quizlet paraphrase of something that Mounce wrote? And if you can state confidently that he is wrong, you must have then taken into consideration the context of the quote, the book from which it was taken, and the data that would support or refute his claim, right? In other words, why are you saying that Mounce is wrong if you don't know the answer to your question: "Do Greek pronouns follow natural gender"? or why are you asking that question if you already know the answer?
                        Well,then he would have said "pronouns follow natural gender more often than not." Could you show me an example from the GNT where a pronoun does NOT follow natural gender ?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                          Well,then he would have said "pronouns follow natural gender more often than not."
                          Read what I said again. There are several reasons why an imprecise statement can be a true statement.

                          Could you show me an example from the GNT where a pronoun does NOT follow natural gender ?
                          I am sure I could, but I am not going to waste my time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                            Read what I said again. There are several reasons why an imprecise statement can be a true statement.

                            I am sure I could, but I am not going to waste my time.
                            Doubt you can find a real example.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                              Doubt you can find a real example.
                              Lol. A "real" example.

                              Comment

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