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Why I think A John did not consider Holy Spirit to be a person

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  • #16
    Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
    I never explicitly stated that what I said applied to JM. I was making a statement about a class of people, and did not place any specific individual in that class. You seem unable to understand this, but it is your problem not mine. Additionally, I wasn't responding to JM as should have been clear when I quoted Jameson.



    I really don't care if you respond or not, but what you said is interesting. It shows that you are aware of the flaws in your argument but choose to ignore rather than address them.


    Do you know of a passage where the term παράκλητος refers to something other than a "person?" (I am using the term loosely here to refer to any personal entity.) I will tell you before you look that I am unaware of the word being used in a way that doesn't refer to a person. If you wish to be consistent in applying your logic about πνεῦμα, you should produce an example of that type of usage or be willing to admit that παράκλητος is only used with personal referents. Good luck.
    The term παράκλητος only occurs 5 times in the bible and it always only refers to the Holy Spirit in any biblical passage. So how did you arrive at the conclusion that it always refers to a “person” , unless you are arguing in circles ?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
      You are reversing the burden of evidence and proof.

      It is the person who claims the Comforter is a person who has to explain what they mean, and why.

      And I do not see scripture using the terminology of God-persons, so some extrapolation would be necessary.
      Yes. Also in John 14:18 Jesus said the following:

      οὐκ ἀφήσω ὑμᾶς ὀρφανούς, ἔρχομαι πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
      I will not leave you as orphans, I will come to you.

      When the blessed Messiah said “”I will come” to you” he was speaking of the Holy Spirit. So do Trinitarians believe that there are two different people who are Jesus ?

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
        This is a facile argument.

        If I say that Jesus Christ is a revelation to the Christian believer, and the pure and perfect Bible is another revelation, surely that does not give the Bible all the attributes of Jesus Christ, such as personhood.
        Better analogy than the ones I gave.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by John Milton View Post

          The term παράκλητος only occurs 5 times in the bible and it always only refers to the Holy Spirit in any biblical passage. So how did you arrive at the conclusion that it always refers to a “person” , unless you are arguing in circles ?
          Because like most words in the GNT, it has a pedigree and usage in broader Greek literature, where it refers to persons. The standard Latin translation is advocatus, defense lawyer or other type of legal assistant or or even a general intermediary.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by John Milton View Post

            The term παράκλητος only occurs 5 times in the bible and it always only refers to the Holy Spirit in any biblical passage. So how did you arrive at the conclusion that it always refers to a “person” , unless you are arguing in circles ?
            The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae gives 784 hits for παράκλητος in various Greek texts. Do you really think that a reader of the NT would only think of five instances?
            I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

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            • #21
              Diogenes Laertius actually used the idea of sending a παράκλητος in the following:
              Ἔλεγε δὲ τοὺς ἐν ᾅδου μᾶλλον ἂν κολάζεσθαι εἰ ὁλοκλήροις καὶ μὴ τετρημένοις ἀγγείοις ὑδροφόρουν. πρὸς τὸν ἀδολέσχην λιπαροῦντα αὐτῷ συλλαβέσθαι, “τὸ ἱκανόν σοι ποιήσω,” φησίν, “ἐὰν παρακλήτους πέμψῃς καὶ αὐτὸς μὴ ἔλθῃς.” πλέων μετὰ πονηρῶν λῃσταῖς περιέπεσε· τῶν δέ, “ἀπολώλαμεν,” εἰπόντων, “ἐὰν γνωσθῶμεν,” “ἐγὼ δέ γε,” φησίν, “ἐὰν μὴ γνωσθῶμεν.”
              I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Jameson View Post

                The Thesaurus Linguae Graecae gives 784 hits for παράκλητος in various Greek texts. Do you really think that a reader of the NT would only think of five instances?
                And the NT usage of the word παράκλητος is consistent with it’s basic definition in the broader Greek literature, as that which Advocates. Beyond that, the peculiar context determines who or what this Advocate is .

                The “argument” here is a facile one, as Steven pointed out. Two can play this game: How many times is παράκλητος an Omniscient member of a Tri Personal Enrity in Greek literature? How many times is it a non-human agent ? Also remember that while Holy Spirit is not a literal person, it is the influence of an actual Being, namely God himself.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                  And the NT usage of the word παράκλητος is consistent with it’s basic definition in the broader Greek literature, as that which Advocates. Beyond that, the peculiar context determines who or what this Advocate is .

                  The “argument” here is a facile one, as Steven pointed out. Two can play this game: How many times is παράκλητος an Omniscient member of a Tri Personal Enrity in Greek literature? How many times is it a non-human agent ? Also remember that while Holy Spirit is not a literal person, it is the influence of an actual Being, namely God himself.
                  Notice how you use a definition that no lexicon provides "that which advocates." It's not "that which..." It's "he who..."

                  As usual, when challenged on your minimal Greek knowledge, you distract with theology.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                    Notice how you use a definition that no lexicon provides "that which advocates." It's not "that which..." It's "he who..."
                    If you want to keep this up, so can I (for the purpose of your edification). So I would make your type of facile argument and insist that the "he who" must be a human being since " in Greek literature" a παράκλητος is always a human being (or perhaps at most a Demon in some obscure contexts), never the God of Israel, so we cannot use the word in such a way. But I will immediately admit that this sort of argument is not very good. Why ? Since it fails to take into consideration the context within which the word παράκλητος is used in scripture. Let me give you an example. Here Jack is writing to his friend James:

                    "James, while I am away I will send to you the E-Mail, the Advocate, which I promised to you and which speaks my words . This way I shall fulfill my promise to not leave you as an orphan, for I come to you. By the way, the E-Mail will also bear the name of our mutual and dear friend Elijah. When the Advocate comes, it will keep you advised on the proper course of action to be taken and it will speak words of wisdom and courage to you, to keep you strong until I return."

                    Would you argue that "the Advocate" above must be a person because an Advocate is always a person in English literature ?


                    As usual, when challenged on your minimal Greek knowledge, you distract with theology.
                    It seems to me that the reverse of above is true . The OP proves via the route of Greek grammar that the Apostle did not consider the Holy Spirit to be a person, which you afre trying to distract with a facile theological argument.

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                    • #25
                      No one would call an email their “advocate” in such a way. Wow...
                      I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                        If you want to keep this up, so can I (for the purpose of your edification). So I would make your type of facile argument and insist that the "he who" must be a human being since " in Greek literature" a παράκλητος is always a human being (or perhaps at most a Demon in some obscure contexts), never the God of Israel, so we cannot use the word in such a way. But I will immediately admit that this sort of argument is not very good. Why ? Since it fails to take into consideration the context within which the word παράκλητος is used in scripture. Let me give you an example. Here Jack is writing to his friend James:

                        "James, while I am away I will send to you the E-Mail, the Advocate, which I promised to you and which speaks my words . This way I shall fulfill my promise to not leave you as an orphan, for I come to you. By the way, the E-Mail will also bear the name of our mutual and dear friend Elijah. When the Advocate comes, it will keep you advised on the proper course of action to be taken and it will speak words of wisdom and courage to you, to keep you strong until I return."

                        Would you argue that "the Advocate" above must be a person because an Advocate is always a person in English literature ?




                        It seems to me that the reverse of above is true . The OP proves via the route of Greek grammar that the Apostle did not consider the Holy Spirit to be a person, which you afre trying to distract with a facile theological argument.
                        Nobody uses the term that way. Nobody in in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                          You are reversing the burden of evidence and proof.

                          It is the person who claims the Comforter is a person who has to explain what they mean, and why.

                          And I do not see scripture using the terminology of God-persons, so some extrapolation would be necessary.
                          I didn't realize you wanted to have a debate about this. I started a new thread. Be sure to drop in.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                            The term παράκλητος only occurs 5 times in the bible and it always only refers to the Holy Spirit in any biblical passage. So how did you arrive at the conclusion that it always refers to a “person” , unless you are arguing in circles ?
                            If the term is only used to describe a person (and I am not sure that it is), the argument could be made that it must refer to a person/entity in the New Testament. I don't think it is a good argument, but it is the logical equivalent of the arguments that you and Avery advance. I intended it as an illustration of how stupid such arguments are.

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                            • #29
                              It's like saying "doctor" means a non-person.
                              I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                                If the term is only used to describe a person (and I am not sure that it is), the argument could be made that it must refer to a person/entity in the New Testament. I don't think it is a good argument...
                                Amazing.

                                You made a couple of solid points that counter Hofstetter and Jameson's unusual collaboration of opposites that try to insist that the Comforter in the New Testament must be a "person". (Ontological word usages have fundamental differences from mundane usage and analogies should be done ultra-cautiously.)

                                It will take me a while to recover from the surprise and shock .

                                ===================

                                From Wikipedia:

                                The word parakletos is a verbal adjective, often used of one called to help in a lawcourt. In the Jewish tradition the word was transcribed with Hebrew letters and used for angels, prophets, and the just as advocates before God's court.
                                Jameson, does that make the angels into "persons"?

                                ===================

                                Steven
                                Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-19, 01:56 AM.

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