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Why I think A John did not consider Holy Spirit to be a person

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Jameson View Post

    Someone can use the word doctor as an analogy or in allegory. That doesn't mean that the word means a non-person. A paraclete is a legal function. It refers to a person who advocates for another. Of course there is the possibility of using it allegorically. This doesn't mean that it should always be an allegory. That's where your problem is.
    Were you ignorant of the fact that Philo used the word παράκλητος to denote things rather than persons before I mentioned this in this thread ? The fact that he might have been doing so “allegorically” ( whatever that means) is a separate issue.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
      The argument that paraclete must be a "person" was dumb on a variety of levels, and does not fit the Greek lexical evidence, which in cases like Philo comes from Jewish sources.

      It is fine to agree with Barry Hofstetter on some things, I do so as well, but you picked a doozy. Barry made all sorts of definitive declarations that were simply wrong, and then gave pathetic explanation attempts. And it was in that context that John made the humorous :"insult" about the dynamic duo.

      You still would do much better to accept the correction, and move on.

      Your first problem is simple logic. John did say that paraclete always means anything at all. That was the position taken by Barry (and you.) Barry was extremely wrong, you were moderately wrong.

      The second problem is that you should follow the thread, and read what is available from the article that had the Philo section. You would see that the "legal function" element is minor in the historical lexical usage.
      Infact had he bothered to read that article, he would have learnt that the “legal function” element in Philo’s use of the word is practically nonexistent. ....Barry’s Beta.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by John Milton View Post
        Infact had he bothered to read that article, he would have learnt that the “legal function” element in Philo’s use of the word is practically nonexistent. ....Barry’s Beta.
        And I now have the quote from p. 219 in that post.

        The whole range of evidence for the appearance of parakletos in Classical and Hellenistic Greek, as a rabbinic loan-word, and in patristic texts denies that it is a term deriving from legal activity. Bauer was right when he said that ‘the technical sense of advocate cannot be demonstrated
        This has become an interesting study to see if either Jameson or Barry Hofstetter can acknowledge that they erred.

        Remember, the studies began with their insistence that a paraclete must be a "person".
        Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-23-19, 09:04 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
          And I now have the quote from p. 219 in that post.

          This has become an interesting study to see if either Jameson or Barry Hofstetter can acknowledge that they erred.

          Remember, the studies began with their insistence that a paraclete must be a "person".
          Yep!

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          • #65
            Originally posted by John Milton View Post

            Yep!
            That is not what I claimed, nor, I believe, Jason. Care to try again?

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

              That is not what I claimed, nor, I believe, Jason. Care to try again?
              You claimed that in the Greek literature of that time παράκλητος never denotes a person , thus παράκλητος as used in the GNT is not a person.

              (I know you are now trying to back-track, but I will go along with your game, for the time being. )

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              • #67
                And I did expect Barry to try to rewrite the history of his claims .

                However, John, you have it in reverse in the last post, if you are doing it for reverse humor, it is a bit too subtle.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                  And I did expect Barry to try to rewrite the history of his claims .

                  However, John, you have it in reverse in the last post, if you are doing it for reverse humor, it is a bit too subtle.
                  Oh, oh ,..my bad. That would be way too subtle indeed. I meant to say the following:

                  You claimed that in the Greek literature of that time παράκλητος always denotes a person , thus παράκλητος as used in the GNT must be a person.

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                  • #69
                    Now your cooking.
                    And I started a special thread with the Barry Hofstetter jig brought up to date.

                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    the Barry Hofstetter claim - a paraclete must be a person, as "the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"

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