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Challenging Ridiculous Assumptions About the AV and the Holy Spirit

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  • Challenging Ridiculous Assumptions About the AV and the Holy Spirit

    The AV clearly refers to the Holy Spirit with a masculine pronoun in John 14:26. Since this is the case, those who believe the 1611 contains no mistakes must believe that the Naselli and Gons paper concerning the pronouns used with πνεῦμα is incorrect.


    ὁ δὲ παράκλητος τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου ἐκεῖνος ὑμᾶς διδάξει πάντα καὶ ὑπομνήσει ὑμᾶς πάντα ἃ εἶπον ὑμῖν.
    The pronoun "ὅ" which I have highlighted in red in the citation above from John 14:26 in the Textus Receptus is a neuter pronoun. It agrees with the neuter noun phrase "τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον" that I have highlighted in blue in number, case, and grammatical gender. This pronoun is translated in the 1611 KJV with the masculine pronoun "whom" which I have underlined and put in green in the citation below.

    Originally posted by 1611 KJV John 14:26
    But the Comforter, which is the holy Ghost, whom the Father wil send in my name, he shal teach you al things, & bring al things to your remembrance, whatsoeuer I haue said vnto you.
    Since the pronoun agrees in case, number, and gender with τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον it cannot be in grammatical agreement with ὁ παράκλητος. This means that the 1611 AV uses a masculine pronoun for the "holy Ghost." If you believe the 1611 translators never made mistakes then you must believe that the paper by Naselli and Gons is incorrect.

  • #2
    You abandoned this discussion:

    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Naselli and Gons ... Do they say that the grammatical referent of the masculine pronoun is the spirit?
    ... Are you going to write a note to Naselli and Gons that since the Comforter takes masculine grammar, the thesis of their paper is wrong?.
    Plus, I answered your question about John 14:26 question in another thread. You should bring over my answer and we can continue here.

    After you answer the questions about your considering the Naselli and Gons paper to be "wrong".

    You should try to understand that a parenthetical or subordinate clause is not the core grammar. The whom is grammatically linked to the Comforter, the which is linked to the Holy Ghost. This is very clear in the AV English text that you quoted. The fact that the Greek does not contain both relative pronouns is not significant.

    Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
    If you believe the 1611 translators never made mistakes then you must believe that the paper by Naselli and Gons is incorrect.
    Such convoluted reasoning. You are talking in circles again.
    Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-19, 01:21 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
      You abandoned this discussion:

      Plus, I answered your question about John 14:26 question in another thread. You should bring over my answer and we can continue here.

      After you answer the questions about your considering the Naselli and Gons paper to be "wrong".

      You should try to understand that a parenthetical or subordinate clause is not the core grammar. The whom is grammatically linked to the Comforter, the which is linked to the Holy Ghost. This is very clear in the AV English text that you quoted. The fact that the Greek does not contain both relative pronouns is not significant.

      Such convoluted reasoning. You are talking in circles again.
      You believe the "whom" is correct, Stevie? You singen blind again, Wonder?

      Bob Bob Bob, Bob Barbara Ann. Oh, sorry...he don't sing that one. I got mixed-up thinken of Stevie's bobben head. Or...was that Ray Charles?
      Shema will change the Christian World.

      Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

      Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
        You abandoned this discussion:

        Plus, I answered your question about John 14:26 question in another thread. You should bring over my answer and we can continue here.
        I made the same argument there as here. You didn't refute it there, and you haven't refuted it here.

        After you answer the questions about your considering the Naselli and Gons paper to be "wrong".
        I explained this to you in another thread, too. The paper wasn't wrong. You used it to make a claim that the paper doesn't support.

        You should try to understand that a parenthetical or subordinate clause is not the core grammar. The whom is grammatically linked to the Comforter, the which is linked to the Holy Ghost. This is very clear in the AV English text that you quoted. The fact that the Greek does not contain both relative pronouns is not significant.

        Such convoluted reasoning. You are talking in circles again.
        The logic is airtight. If you believe that the 1611 contains no errors and it is demonstrated that the 1611 clearly refers to the spirit with a masculine pronoun, the Naselli/Gons paper cannot be correct, according to your logic, because the AV refers to the spirit with a masculine pronoun. You have done nothing here to dispute my argument. The whom cannot be linked to the Comforter according to the rules of greek grammar. It doesn't agree with the Comforter in case, number, and gender. Therefore, "whom" must refer to the spirit and not the Comforter.

        You made a claim that a "parenthetical or subordinate clause is not the core grammar." This is a false claim because these clauses still follow the rules of grammar. Even though I know this is a false claim, I will gladly point out to you that the burden of proof is on you to prove the claim and that my point stands unassailed because you haven't done so. Care to try again?

        Comment


        • #5
          Here was the earlier answer about the AV 1611: (Spelling fixed, italics added.)

          Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
          ὃ πέμψει ὁ πατὴρ

          First, none of this affects pneuma being neuter, the question is whether the paraclete could have a neuter referent.
          Is there a question in the Received Text, or an ambiguity?

          Clearly the AV is totally clear, maintaining the neuter and masculine distinction between Spirit and Comforter.

          John 14:26 (AV)
          But the Comforter,
          which is the Holy Ghost,
          whom the Father will send in my name,
          he shall teach you all things,
          and bring all things to your remembrance,
          whatsoever I have said unto you.


          It is likely that the referent of ὃ in the Greek is the Holy Ghost.
          Greek geeks are welcome to comment.

          However the ultra-literal translation would be awkward, especially as the relative pronoun follows the noun, which is not our English construction.
          So the translation to English requires the which for the Holy Ghost and the whom for the Comforter.

          Ergo, translation equivalence, maintaining the pronoun gender distinctton.
          You harumphed quite a bit, but said nothing substantive about either the Greek or the English texts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
            You made a claim that a "parenthetical or subordinate clause is not the core grammar." This is a false claim because these clauses still follow the rules of grammar.
            Naselli and Gons made the note about the parenthetical and subordinate phrase aspect. This separation of auxiliary, subordinate, and parenthetical phrases from the core grammar is trivially obvious in English grammar, and applies to the Greek as well.

            One correction, though, the reference should be to phrases rather than clauses, to be more inclusive of short phrases.

            Ironically, this is where John Milton goes astray in John 1, as I explained in a post that was highly acclaimed .
            Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-19, 09:31 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by nothead View Post
              You believe the "whom" is correct, Stevie?
              Yes, it is a reference to the Comforter, which is given masculine grammar in the NT.

              There are other theories of translation that ignore the Greek grammar, and then get very subjective in assigning the gender in English, and that makes it much easier to translate to doctrine.

              The AV is totally consistent in its handling of the neuter grammar of the Spirit and the masculine grammar of the Comforter. Hope that helps .

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                . The paper wasn't wrong. You used it to make a claim that the paper doesn't support.
                Have you retracted this assertion in bold?

                Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                The authors weren't arguing that the term spirit was never used with the masculine. They were arguing, "the fallacious argument is that the masculine demonstrative pronoun ἐκεῖνος in John 14:26, 15:26, and 16:13–-14 proves [that the Holy Spirit is a person]."
                The consistent testimony of Scripture is that the Holy Spirit is a person, but John’s use of ἐκεῖνος in John 14:26, 15:26 and 16:13-14 has absolutely no bearing on the subject. A careful analysis of the texts in their contexts with sound principles of grammatical gender firmly in place demonstrates unequivocally that the antecedent of ἐκεῖνος is the masculine παράκλητος. The gender of the nouns and pronouns in these chapters neither supports nor challenges the doctrine of the Spirit’s personality. It is time to put this erroneous argument to rest once and for all.

                Did John Use Bad Grammar to Teach the Holy Spiritís Personality?
                Phil Gons
                http://philgons.com/2015/01/did-john...s-personality/

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                  Yes, it is a reference to the Comforter, which is given masculine grammar in the NT.

                  There are other theories of translation that ignore the Greek grammar, and then get very subjective in assigning the gender in English, and that makes it much easier to translate to doctrine.

                  The AV is totally consistent in its handling of the neuter grammar of the Spirit and the masculine grammar of the Comforter. Hope that helps .
                  Pneumatos is neuter? Have you any children, neuster?
                  Shema will change the Christian World.

                  Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                  Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by nothead View Post
                    Pneumatos is neuter? Have you any children, neuster?
                    Pneuma is the word for wind, breath, spirit. It is not the word for children. Please, try to follow before posting. Thansk!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                      Pneuma is the word for wind, breath, spirit. It is not the word for children. Please, try to follow before posting. Thansk!
                      Children was a quasi insult. Hagios Pneumatos is a term for what the Bible calls wind, breath and spirit too. Please try to follow...the mind...of nothead. THANKS.
                      Shema will change the Christian World.

                      Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                      Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                        Here was the earlier answer about the AV 1611:

                        You harumphed quite a bit, but said nothing substantive about either the Greek or the English texts.
                        I pointed out there as here that you have indicated that the Greek pronoun does, in fact, refer to the "Holy Ghost." This means that you recognize and admit that the pronoun belongs with the "Holy Ghost" and not the "Comforter."

                        Concerning your argument that the translators of the 1611 KJV used dynamic equivalence in this passage, I submit that the translators showed no consistent concern for the "awkwardness" of the English construction and frequently referred the spirit with "which." This is clear from the passages from the KJV below (emphasis mine.)
                        John 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit which they that beleeue on him, should receiue. For the holy Ghost was not yet giuen, because that Iesus was not yet glorified.)"
                        John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I wil send vnto you from the Father, euen the Spirit of trueth, which proceedeth from the Father, hee shall testifie of me."
                        The translators have clearly used a masculine pronoun for the spirit, and your secondary claim is unsubstantiated because the translators don't show a consistent pattern of removing the "awkward" construction. In conclusion, "you harumphed quite a bit, but said nothing substantive about either the Greek or the English texts."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nothead View Post
                          Please try to follow...the mind...of nothead. THANKS.
                          Only if you write coherently and sensibly.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                            Only if you write coherently and sensibly.
                            Stay on track, Prefontaine.

                            Is the hagios pneumatos masculine or neuter?

                            Shema will change the Christian World.

                            Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

                            Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                              Concerning your argument that the translators of the 1611 KJV used dynamic equivalence in this passage, "
                              And I made no such argument. The relative pronoun for which is in the Greek, the pronoun for whom was supplied by the AV text, and everything was grammatically consistent, the Holy Spirit has the neuter which, the Comforter has the masculine whom.

                              Supplying a relative pronoun in translation is not what is meant by dynamic equivalence.

                              Comment

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