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Fallacious Trinitarian argument concerning Holy Spirit

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  • Fallacious Trinitarian argument concerning Holy Spirit

    The argument is that since the word παράκλητος in the non-biblical Greek literature always refers to “persons” ( forget for a moment that the Trinitarian definition of “person” as it relates to God is quite unique) , that in the NT the word παράκλητος must also be a reference to a “person.”

    This argument is not only facile , but more importantly , it is unbiblical. So for example if we were to follow this logic, we would have to conclude that the word λυχνία cannot denote an assembly of persons ( or a Church) in Revelation 1, since in Greek Literature it never denotes persons .

  • #2
    Originally posted by John Milton View Post
    The argument is that since the word παράκλητος in the non-biblical Greek literature always refers to “persons” ( forget for a moment that the Trinitarian definition of “person” as it relates to God is quite unique) , that in the NT the word παράκλητος must also be a reference to a “person.”

    This argument is not only facile , but more importantly , it is unbiblical. So for example if we were to follow this logic, we would have to conclude that the word λυχνία cannot denote an assembly of persons ( or a Church) in Revelation 1, since in Greek Literature it never denotes persons .
    All you are saying is that a non-biblical reference to Spirit is unbiblical. Whoo HOO brother. I never knew.
    Shema will change the Christian World.

    Turn it upside down. To where it once was, the POV of JESUS, his DISCIPLES and his SERVANTS.

    Know God YHWH Elohim is One. And love Him with all. Mk 12, red letter words.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by John Milton View Post
      The argument is that since the word παράκλητος in the non-biblical Greek literature always refers to “persons” ( forget for a moment that the Trinitarian definition of “person” as it relates to God is quite unique) , that in the NT the word παράκλητος must also be a reference to a “person.”.
      And I was quite surprised that both Barry Hofstetter and Jameson made such illogical arguments about paraclete and pneuma. And would not even back off when there argumetns were cordially shown to be wrong, by various analogies.

      They are simply falling into the same trap of trying to say that there is some New Testament usage on Holy Spirit or Comforter that impels personhood (rather than that being a translational-interpretive understanding.)

      =====================

      btw, if you want an excellent article on the use of paraclete (which does not waste time on the person question, and does mention gods and godesses, yet misses the angels I mentioned earlier) relating to the Greek and Latin and Hebrew corpus, I suggest:

      Biblical Repertory - Volume 1 (1825)
      Knappius de Spiritu Sancto et Christo Paracletis
      Knapp on the divine paraclete - p. 237-264
      https://books.google.com/books?id=5R5IAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA237

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
        And I was quite surprised that both Barry Hofstetter and Jameson made such illogical arguments about paraclete and pneuma. And would not even back off when there argumetns were cordially shown to be wrong, by various analogies.

        They are simply falling into the same trap of trying to say that there is some New Testament usage on Holy Spirit or Comforter that impels personhood (rather than that being a translational-interpretive understanding.)

        =====================

        btw, if you want an excellent article on the use of paraclete (which does not waste time on the person question, and does mention gods and godesses, yet misses the angels I mentioned earlier) relating to the Greek and Latin and Hebrew corpus, I suggest:

        Biblical Repertory - Volume 1 (1825)
        Knappius de Spiritu Sancto et Christo Paracletis
        Knapp on the divine paraclete - p. 237-264
        https://books.google.com/books?id=5R5IAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA237
        Fake analogies, like fake news, fail before the real world usage of the word. You can as surprised as you like, but that doesn't alter reality.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

          Fake analogies, like fake news, fail before the real world usage of the word. You can as surprised as you like, but that doesn't alter reality.
          Don’t know what you mean by “”real world“” usage, but the biblical usage of this word finds it’s meaning from the bible, not from outside of it.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by John Milton View Post

            Don’t know what you mean by “”real world“” usage, but the biblical usage of this word finds it’s meaning from the bible, not from outside of it.
            And of course, part of the meaning is that the paraclete is a person:

            καὶ ἐάν τις ἁμάρτῃ, παράκλητον ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν δίκαιον... (1 John 2:1).

            At any rate, biblical authors chose their vocabulary because it carried a particular meaning suitable to their context. One of the problems with people who study only NT Greek is that they tend to treat it as an isolated artifact, when actually it was simply the ordinary living speech of the time. So contrary to your misguided opinion, a sense of what the word means in the broader corpus is essential.

            Comment


            • #7
              For me John 16-18 makes it impossible that the Holy Spirit is a person --

              And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—
              the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive it, because it neither sees it nor knows it. But you do know it, for it abides with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
              According to Jesus above, he will ask the Father to send another Advocate . Yet Jesus also says above that he is this other one who is coming. That is why Holy Spirit cannot be a person, but is rather the presence of Jesus in another form.
              Last edited by John Milton; 02-21-19, 01:17 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                btw, if you want an excellent article on the use of paraclete (which does not waste time on the person question, and does mention gods and godesses, yet misses the angels I mentioned earlier) relating to the Greek and Latin and Hebrew corpus, I suggest:

                Biblical Repertory - Volume 1 (1825)
                Knappius de Spiritu Sancto et Christo Paracletis
                Knapp on the divine paraclete - p. 237-264
                https://books.google.com/books?id=5R5IAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA237
                Note that I pointed out before from one source that angels as paracletes refute Barry's claim. A second source refers to "gods and godesses".

                And Barry Hofstetter is wrong once again in his repeated claim that paraclete is only used for persons.

                The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Volume 4 (1915)
                edited by James Orr
                https://books.google.com/books?id=Tn...YAAJ&pg=PA2245

                Παράκλητον

                The Talmud and Targums:
                Among Jewish writers the word "Paraclete" came to have a number of meanings. A good deed was called a paraclete or advocate, and a transgression was an accuser. Repentance and good works were called paracletes: "The works of benevolence and mercy done by the people of Israel in this world become agents of peace and intercessors (paracletes) between them and their Father in heaven." The sin offering is a paraclete; the paraclete created by each good deed is called an angel (Jewish Encyclopedia, IX, 514-15, article "Paraclete").

                Article by Edgar. Y. Mullins (1860-1928)
                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Young_Mullins

                And he gave his sources as:

                Grimm-Thayer, Gr-Eng. Lexicon of the New Testament; Cremer, Biblico-Theol. Lexicon; HDB, article "Paraclete"; DCG, article "Paraclete"; EB, article "Paraclete"; Jewish Encyclopedia, article "Paraclete"; Hare, Mission of the Comforter; Pearson, On the Creed; Taylor, Sayings of the Jewish Fathers; various comms., Westcott, Godet and others.
                (As posted by Timberdoodle in 2016, thanks!)

                Once again .. educated to ignorance.

                And this is supposed to be Barry's area of expertise.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                  And of course, part of the meaning is that the paraclete is a person:

                  καὶ ἐάν τις ἁμάρτῃ, παράκλητον ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν δίκαιον... (1 John 2:1).
                  Don't see how that makes παράκλητος a person ?


                  At any rate, biblical authors chose their vocabulary because it carried a particular meaning suitable to their context.
                  παράκλητος is a correct choice for the Holy Spirit because the author wanted to tap into and stress the Holy Spirit's advocating role. In the same way in Revelation the author used the word λυχνία to denote the Church because he wanted his readers to understand the Church as as assembly of people who bear God's light.

                  One of the problems with people who study only NT Greek is that they tend to treat it as an isolated artifact, when actually it was simply the ordinary living speech of the time.
                  But we are not treating NT Greek as an isolated artifact (whatever that means). The NT usage of the word παράκλητος is consistent with it's basic definition in the broader Greek literature,-- as connoting an Advocate. Beyond that, the peculiar context determines who or what this Advocate is precisely. It is foolish to insist that a biblical παράκλητος from Heaven must be a person because in the Greek literature at our disposal every use of this word there denotes a human being. If the Greeks had a story about a god whose impersonal Spirit comforted them and advocated on behalf of them, is there any doubt that the word παράκλητος would have been used to designate such a spirit ? Or do you presume that the Greeks would have had to invent a new word to connote such an advocate ?

                  So contrary to your misguided opinion, a sense of what the word means in the broader corpus is essential.
                  What precisely is this supposed to mean ? Are you saying that if the word λυχνία in "the broader corpus" (i.e. in non-biblical Greek literature) never denotes "an assembly of persons" for instance, that the bible can't define λυχνία as such ?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                    Note that I pointed out before from one source that angels as paracletes refute Barry's claim. A second source refers to "gods and godesses".

                    And Barry Hofstetter is wrong once again in his repeated claim that paraclete is only used for persons.



                    (As posted by Timberdoodle in 2016, thanks!)

                    Once again .. educated to ignorance.

                    And this is supposed to be Barry's area of expertise.
                    Thanks for highlighting that Steven.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by John Milton View Post
                      Thanks for highlighting that Steven.
                      yw.

                      Now it is time for Barry Hofstetter to acknowledge his double error.

                      1. Barry's claim that paraclete is always a person in Greek literature.

                      2. Barry's claim that if paraclete was always a person in Greek literature, he could "insist that a biblical παράκλητος from Heaven must be a person because in the Greek literature at our disposal every use of this word there denotes a human being." (John Milton's accurate words right above.)

                      The lexical claim of #1 was wrong, and the logic of #2 was false (even if #1 had been accurate.)

                      What is the likelihood that Barry will acknowledge even one part of his double error?
                      Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-21-19, 03:32 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                        Don't see how that makes παράκλητος a person ?




                        παράκλητος is a correct choice for the Holy Spirit because the author wanted to tap into and stress the Holy Spirit's advocating role. In the same way in Revelation the author used the word λυχνία to denote the Church because he wanted his readers to understand the Church as as assembly of people who bear God's light.



                        But we are not treating NT Greek as an isolated artifact (whatever that means). The NT usage of the word παράκλητος is consistent with it's basic definition in the broader Greek literature,-- as connoting an Advocate. Beyond that, the peculiar context determines who or what this Advocate is precisely. It is foolish to insist that a biblical παράκλητος from Heaven must be a person because in the Greek literature at our disposal every use of this word there denotes a human being. If the Greeks had a story about a god whose impersonal Spirit comforted them and advocated on behalf of them, is there any doubt that the word παράκλητος would have been used to designate such a spirit ? Or do you presume that the Greeks would have had to invent a new word to connote such an advocate ?



                        What precisely is this supposed to mean ? Are you saying that if the word λυχνία in "the broader corpus" (i.e. in non-biblical Greek literature) never denotes "an assembly of persons" for instance, that the bible can't define λυχνία as such ?
                        Well, you read the NT from a hyper-theological perspective into which you have to fit all the data, including using false analogies and comparisons. In this case, you might want to start with thinking about what really makes a παράκλητος a παράκλητος, and why the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by John Milton View Post
                          For me John 16-18 makes it impossible that the Holy Spirit is a person --



                          According to Jesus above, he will ask the Father to send another Advocate . Yet Jesus also says above that he is this other one who is coming. That is why Holy Spirit cannot be a person, but is rather the presence of Jesus in another form.
                          Silly boy, you have just said that the παράκλητος is a person. Unless you want now to argue that Jesus is not a person?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                            Note that I pointed out before from one source that angels as paracletes refute Barry's claim. A second source refers to "gods and godesses".

                            And Barry Hofstetter is wrong once again in his repeated claim that paraclete is only used for persons.



                            (As posted by Timberdoodle in 2016, thanks!)

                            Once again .. educated to ignorance.

                            And this is supposed to be Barry's area of expertise.
                            These are pragmatic specialized usages derived well after the time of the NT, and have no bearing on how the NT authors used the term (which fits perfectly with the generalized usage at the time). And it's clearly not your area of expertise, or you would have realized why this does not support your contentions.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                              Silly boy, you have just said that the παράκλητος is a person. Unless you want now to argue that Jesus is not a person?
                              No, I have just argued that Jesus is not two persons by demanding that παράκλητος is not a person.

                              Comment

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