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Barry Hofstetter -paraclete "used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"

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  • Barry Hofstetter -paraclete "used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"

    the Barry Hofstetter claim - a paraclete must be a person, as "the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature"
    Does Barry Hofstetter even remember what he wrote?
    Here are examples of his claims:

    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    Nobody in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    what really makes a παράκλητος a παράκλητος, and why the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.
    Now that Philo, the paper from Kenneth Grayston and many references have shown Barry Hofstetter to be simply wrong, watch the new broken field running.

    (Previously Barry came up with some rather lame qualification attempts, however the addition of the Grayston paper and the Philo references are really too much for his argument to bear even with the highest degree of sophistry possible.)

    =================

    Emphasis added

    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    This has become an interesting study to see if either Jameson or Barry Hofstetter can acknowledge that they erred.
    Remember, the studies began with their insistence that a paraclete must be a "person".
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    That is not what I claimed, nor, I believe, ...
    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
    You also rewrite my claim about παράκλητος into a nice little straw-man.
    So, Barry, since you cannot acknowledge your errors above, please tell us your new claims.

    Do you need the references again from the Kenneth Grayston paper, (including Philo) and other sources?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-24-19, 01:06 AM.

  • #2
    Here are two Kenneth Grayston (1914-2005) references placed on the forum. There had been a few earlier refutations of the claims of Barry above, and he had given us lame explanations. When these two came forth, he switched to claiming that he had been misrepresented (quotes in first post.)

    Originally posted by John Milton View Post
    See here, how a Jew (Philo) who wrote during the NT period used the word παράκλητος . Shouldn't Philo be more instructive regarding the definition of παράκλητος in the bible than Demosthenes, 19:1 ?
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Nice, superb find.
    New Testament Text and Language: A Sheffield Reader
    edited by Stanley E. Porter, Craig A. Evans
    Kenneth Grayston
    The Meaning of Paraklētos - p. 207-221

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=E6XnCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA213

    Philo was prepared to transfer this language of the royal household to human relations with God. For example, penitent Jews have three paraklētoi when they plead for reconciliation with the Father: God’s own clemency and kindness, the holiness of the founders of the race, and the reformation at work in the penitents (Rewards and Punishments 166-67). Again, commenting on Lev. 6.2-7, he explains that a deliberate offender may confess, make restitution, pay a fine and thus propitiate (hilaskesthai) the injured party. Then he goes to the temple to ask for remission of his sins ‘taking with him as his irreproachable paraklētos the soul-felt conviction which has saved him from a fatal disaster’ (Special Laws 1.237). Finally, in Moses 2.134, he says that when the high priest pleads his cause, that sins may be remembered no more and good gifts be showered in rich abundance, he wears the sacred vesture which symbolizes the world. ‘For he who has been consecrated to the Father of the world must need have the Father’s son (i.e. the world) as his paraklētos.’ This is good Jewish doctrine: when men ask God for forgiveness and benefits, they rely for support on God’s nature and their own repentance.

    These passages from six works exhaust the references from Philo. Not one of them deals with legal proceedings: literally or metaphorically they are set in royal palaces, administrative buildings and sacred temples, but not in legal court-rooms. The business of a paraklētos is to give advice or to make a great person favourable to a suppliant. This ‘propitiation’ may be effected by the standing and the intercessions of the paraklētos; or the great person himself may become the suppliant’s paraklētos, or the repentance of a guilty suppliant may dispense with the need of a separate paraklētos. The word means something like supporter, sponsor, patron. - p. 213
    Now, how will Barry Hofstetter try to handwave these references?
    These will be even tougher, 1st century, right around the time of the New Testament writings.
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    The whole range of evidence for the appearance of parakletos in Classical and Hellenistic Greek, as a rabbinic loan-word, and in patristic texts denies that it is a term deriving from legal activity. Bauer was right when he said that ‘the technical sense of advocate cannot be demonstrated’. - p. 219
    https://books.google.ca/books?id=E6XnCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA219
    And the one thing that Barry Hofstetter has been unable to do -- acknowledge the truth, simply:

    "I erred, thanks for the correction."
    .
    Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-24-19, 07:12 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, he is clearly back-tracking. At the very least, he gave readers a very , very strong impression that παράκλητος in the bible must be a "person" because this word (according to him) is always used to connote a "person" in Greek Literature. Here are some of his quotes on this score:

      Nobody uses the term that way. Nobody in in ancient times thought of a παράκλητος /advocatus as anything other than a person.
      ---

      Fake analogies, like fake news, fail before the real world usage of the word. You can as surprised as you like, but that doesn't alter reality.
      ----

      And of course, part of the meaning is that the paraclete is a person:

      καὶ ἐάν τις ἁμάρτῃ, παράκλητον ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν πατέρα Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν δίκαιον... (1 John 2:1).

      At any rate, biblical authors chose their vocabulary because it carried a particular meaning suitable to their context. One of the problems with people who study only NT Greek is that they tend to treat it as an isolated artifact, when actually it was simply the ordinary living speech of the time. So contrary to your misguided opinion, a sense of what the word means in the broader corpus is essential.
      ---

      Well, you read the NT from a hyper-theological perspective into which you have to fit all the data, including using false analogies and comparisons. In this case, you might want to start with thinking about what really makes a παράκλητος a παράκλητος, and why the term is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.
      ----
      -----

      When however it became clear that παράκλητος was indeed used in Greek literature to denote non-persons he suddenly modified his claim:

      For that we have to go to documents written in Greek at the time of the NT, and that evidence is that παράκλητος is overwhelmingly used of persons. So THE. PEOPLE. WHO. DO. NOT. KNOW. GREEK. can continue to blather, but it doesn't mean anything.
      So Barry downgraded his initial claim from "exclusively" to "overwhelmingly." And then again, when it became clear in his mind that Philo certainly used the term to denote non-persons, he tried to change the subject (by claiming that Philo had no influence on the NT) instead of acknowledging the error of his initial claim that παράκλητος is used exclusively of people throughout Greek literature.

      There is no evidence whatsoever that Philo had any influence on the authors of the NT, and if you want to believe that the NT authors were neo-Platonic, that one's on you.
      --

      Comment


      • #4
        Putting aside the blunder from Barry Hofstetter and his many humorous attempts to slide by --

        Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) has an excellent section on the word paraclete, including historical usages:

        The Holy Bible, According to the Authorized Version (A.D. 1611): St. John. The Acts of the apostles (1880)
        https://books.google.com/books?id=-gAVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA211
        p. 211-213

        The Gospel according to St. John : the Greek text with introduction and notes (1908)
        https://archive.org/details/gospelac...2west/page/188
        p. 188-191
        Should be worthwhile to extract a few quotes.

        ================================

        When we gave this Walter Bauer quote from Kenneth Grayston:

        New Testament Text and Language: A Sheffield Reader
        edited by Stanley E. Porter, Craig A. Evans
        https://books.google.ca/books?id=E6XnCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA219

        The Meaning of Paraklētos
        Kenneth Grayston
        p. 207-221

        Also - JSNT 13 (1981): 72 (67-82).

        The whole range of evidence for the appearance of parakletos in Classical and Hellenistic Greek, as a rabbinic loan-word, and in patristic texts denies that it is a term deriving from legal activity. Bauer was right when he said that ‘the technical sense of advocate cannot be demonstrated’. p. 219
        .Bauer should be:

        2. Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (irans. W.F. Arndt and F.W. Gingrich; rev. and aug. F.W. Gingrich and F.W. Danker; Chicago: University of Chicago Press. 2nd edn. 1979)
        https://www.amazon.com/Greek-English...s=books&sr=1-2,
        Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-26-19, 08:40 AM.

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