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new! -- an English text that violates Greek grammer ??

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
    Afaik, only CL4P has ever tried to craft an argument that an English text actually violates Greek grammar!

    CL4P did not respond to this point, so it deserves its own thread.
    Your statement here shows you don't know much. I never said that an English text violates Greek grammar. This is more of your...how did the Edit per mod. put it..."bickering?" Apparently, "bickering" is when you intentionally misrepresent the things that I have said. In response to your "bickering," the mods erase some of your slanderous posts and any of my posts in which I defended myself from your false statements. It is hard to accept the fact that you can continually lie about whatever you want and still have nothing happen to you. Oh, well.


    And, if you two don't stop bickering more deletions/warnings/infractions will be coming. Stay on topic and stop making it personal.
    Last edited by Mod20; 02-28-19, 01:46 AM.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
      Your statement here shows you don't know much. I never said that an English text violates Greek grammar.
      Here:

      Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
      "whom." If they were referring to the "Comforter" with this pronoun, they were violating the Greek grammar and translated the passage incorrectly. This would mean that the AV is not 100% accurate.
      The fact that you would speak this way is simply a reflection of the confusions you create for yourself in jumping back and forth between languages and projecting your confusions on the learned men of the AV.

      I
      f you two don't stop bickering more deletions/warnings/infractions will be coming. Stay on topic and stop making it personal.
      Last edited by Mod20; 02-28-19, 01:52 AM.

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      • #18
        It is hard to twist my words when you quote the whole thing, isn't it?

        Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
        False. In this thread I am operating under the assumptions I stated in the opening post of this thread. Since you believe that the AV is 100% perfect, it must be a perfect translation of the Greek text, and I have demonstrated that certain pronouns in the Greek text must be referring to the Comforter. The translators of the AV had to have been referring to the Spirit with these masculine pronouns because the Greek text demands it. If you deny this, you are admitting that the AV is not 100% perfect, and that is a fine thing to do since it is exactly what the translators themselves said of the 1611 KJV.

        They translated the Greek relative, which you have admitted goes with the "Holy Ghost," with "whom." If they were referring to the "Comforter" with this pronoun, they were violating the Greek grammar and translated the passage incorrectly. This would mean that the AV is not 100% accurate.

        They didn't maintain the distinction you have asserted that the neuter pronoun goes with "Holy Ghost" exclusively and "Comforter" takes a masculine pronoun exclusively.

        Simple, flawed logic on your part. And there is a preface to the 1611 where the translators state that they weren't sure about certain about certain readings.
        The translators were also aware that their translation would contain errors.


        You will hyperventilate and die before you will be able to blow down the brick house of arguments I made here. You are the one who must resort to phrases dropping out of the AV in order for your proposed reading to even be viable. Keep "huffing and puffing," you ravenous wolf. The Lord's sheep aren't afraid of you.

        This is false. I demonstrated that you can't remove every phrase without changing the grammar. You have yet to give any argument for why the phrase should be dropped. You have tried to assume that it must be. You haven't made a case for it, but I did make a case for why your interpretation cannot work. You didn't attempt to refute it either.

        You still can't understand the theater example. I have already apologized for giving you an explanation that was too advanced for you. I am so sorry that I do not have the skill to dumb down my explanation enough for you to understand it.
        I wasn't saying what you have alleged. Learn to understand what you read.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
          I wasn't saying what you have alleged. Learn to understand what you read.
          Clearly, you made an errant claim. The root cause is your fuzzy thinking where you cannot read the English text, and understand its grammar, without a Greek seminary-style filter.

          You are simply upset that I did not let the error slide by.

          When you tried to ignore the correction, then I placed it on its own thread. This one. If you had acknowledged the error, there would have been no need for the thread emphasis.

          Comment


          • #20
            It is simply impossible to argue with someone who will never admit they are wrong.
            "Qostiid sahlo aak. Just because you can do a thing, does not always mean you should." Paarthurnax

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
              Clearly, you made an errant claim.
              I made no errant claim.
              The root cause is your fuzzy thinking where you cannot read the English text, and understand its grammar, without a Greek seminary-style filter.
              I understand the English grammar, and I have explained why you cannot assume that your understanding of the text is the correct understanding. More than that, I have demonstrated that your interpretation of the English text would be a mistranslation of the Greek, and therefore cannot be correct. Also, I am not seminary trained, so your assumptions fail you once again.

              You are simply upset that I did not let the error slide by.
              You are making false assertions that make you look foolish. But why would anyone expect for that to start bothering you now?

              When you tried to ignore the correction, then I placed it on its own thread. This one. If you had acknowledged the error, there would have been no need for the thread emphasis.
              Which error are you wishing to emphasize? There are so many errors in the title of your thread:
              1) You are making a thread about something that I never said.
              2) There are several words in the title of your thread that need to be capitalized.
              3) "grammer" should be spelled grammar.
              4) There should be no space between the last word and your question marks.
              I am not certain which of these errors you are referring to. When you make this many mistakes before you even make the first comment on your own thread, why should anyone take you seriously?

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Redmond View Post
                It is simply impossible to argue with someone who will never admit they are wrong.
                Your profile picture kinda looks like one of the pre-made Nord npc's from the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                  Your profile picture kinda looks like one of the pre-made Nord npc's from the Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind.
                  Why thank you! (though I feel more like an Orc than a Nord!) It is, perhaps unfortunately, my real face.
                  "Qostiid sahlo aak. Just because you can do a thing, does not always mean you should." Paarthurnax

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Redmond View Post

                    Why thank you! (though I feel more like an Orc than a Nord!) It is, perhaps unfortunately, my real face.
                    That's not a bad face at all. People can't tell whether I'm coming or going.

                    Comment


                    • #25

                      Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                      This demonstrates that your claim that your suggested reading is in harmony with all the rules of grammar is false.
                      This is the first time that you made the blunder of saying that the English text would break the rules of Greek grammar. When you said the same thing more directly, I gave it its own thread, this one.

                      The OP started with the second time this false claim was made.

                      Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                      They translated the Greek relative, which ... goes with the "Holy Ghost," with "whom." If they were referring to the "Comforter" with this pronoun, they were violating the Greek grammar and translated the passage incorrectly.
                      This is a core element of the confusion of CL4P. He is concerned that an English text might violate Greek grammar. Amazing.

                      While one time might be a slip, your stating this errant concern twice shows that your error is embedded mental confusion.
                      Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-28-19, 04:50 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                        Wow, I misspelled the thread title. Apologies.
                        Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                        1) You are making a thread about something that I never said.
                        2) There are several words in the title of your thread that need to be capitalized.
                        3) "grammer" should be spelled grammar.
                        4) There should be no space between the last word and your question marks.
                        1 - you actually said it twice, see the post right above, plus the OP.

                        2 - capitalization is style, too much capitalization reduces the impact of proper caps (English and Greek)

                        3 - see above, posted earlier

                        4 - spacing is style, and the venue and font and formality are all factors. e.g. We used to have two spaces after a period, now it is optional. With multiple question marks, I did not want to cramp the word grammar. However, on another day I might cramp it in, as on reflection I do think it would look better.
                        Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-28-19, 05:11 AM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                          I made no errant claim. I understand the English grammar,
                          If you understood the English, you would accept the parenthetical element and stop claiming that the English text violates Greek grammar.

                          Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                          and I have explained why you cannot assume that your understanding of the text is the correct understanding.
                          A reasoned explanation, built upon being familiar with the full grammatical consistency of the English Bible text authors, is not an assumption, it is a logical conclusion.

                          And I will point out that another AV defender might let all this faux inconsistency accusation pass, if they like the idea that the AV might use a personal pronoun for the Spirit. And if they are not familiar with the incredible consistency of both the Greek text and the AV on this issue.

                          Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                          More than that, I have demonstrated that your interpretation of the English text would be a mistranslation of the Greek, and therefore cannot be correct.
                          Really? What is mistranslated? The sentences are clear, the meaning comes forth successfully, the spirit is neuter and the Comforter is masculine.

                          Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                          The Greek and the English refer to the spirit/pneuma in neuter, and the comforter/advocate/παράκλητος in masculine.

                          Using slightly different syntax, the Greek and English are consistent in this fundamental element.
                          .
                          You are confusing accurate not-ultra-literal translation as mistranslation. A common error.

                          And if you go ultra-literal, the English comes out poorly because of the syntax differences in the languages.

                          You are welcome to give your "Improved" text for comparison.

                          Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                          Also, I am not seminary trained, so your assumptions fail you once again.
                          Thus, I said seminary-style. Read more carefully.
                          Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-28-19, 05:16 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            "If they were referring to the "Comforter" with this pronoun, they were violating the Greek grammar and translated the passage incorrectly" does not equal "an English text violates Greek Grammar." My quote clearly refers to a hypothetical situation in which the translators violated the Greek grammar by giving a false translation of the Greek. It does not say "An English text violates Greek Grammar" as you repeatedly allege. This entire thread is a blatant lie and an attack on my integrity that the mods apparently sanction.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
                              "If they were referring to the "Comforter" with this pronoun, they were violating the Greek grammar and translated the passage incorrectly" does not equal "an English text violates Greek Grammar." My quote clearly refers to a hypothetical situation in which the translators violated the Greek grammar by giving a false translation of the Greek. It does not say "An English text violates Greek Grammar" as you repeatedly allege. This entire thread is a blatant lie and an attack on my integrity that the mods apparently sanction.
                              However, your hypothetical matches the "facts on the ground". The English "Comforter" is clearly masculine and is referred to as "whom".

                              If you do not want to be quoted as saying the "English text violates Greek grammar" then you should totally drop the idea that the actual AV text is "violating the Greek grammar." You might consider a retraction of the two times you have used this argument.

                              And I made a change of analysis on the other thread that might help you to understand the relationship of the Greek and English text.

                              Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                              Here is a little change in analysis.

                              The AV text has two distinct parentheticals, the Greek text has one in two parts, internally connected by ὅ. The change in grammatical structure makes the ὅ irrelevant, the comma and English pronouns are used to separate the two phrases. ὅ from the Greek is thus untranslated.

                              Thus both relative pronouns in the English text, one with a verb and italics, are added for clarity.

                              This makes two major changes.

                              John 14:26
                              But the Comforter,
                              which is the Holy Ghost,
                              whom the Father will send in my name,
                              he shall teach you all things,
                              and bring all things to your remembrance,
                              whatsoever I have said unto you.


                              1) the AV italics for "which is" are appropriate, there was no editorial oversight
                              2) incorporates the helpful part from CL4P

                              All the other basics stay the same. The meaning is the same.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                                However, your hypothetical matches the "facts on the ground". The English "Comforter" is clearly masculine and is referred to as "whom".

                                If you do not want to be quoted as saying the "English text violates Greek grammar" then you should totally drop the idea that the actual AV text is "violating the Greek grammar." You might consider a retraction of the two times you have used this argument.
                                I never made this argument, claim, or statement. The only thing that should be dropped is your insistence that I have.

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