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Deception at John 17:5

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  • Deception at John 17:5

    It begins with a bad translation:

    Jesus says, "Father, restore to me the glory that I had with you before the creation of the world."
    See here, Jameson.

    There is no word “restore” in the original Koine.

  • #2
    This would be more of an interpretive paraphrase than a translation.

    καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

    The NAS adequately captures the literal force of the Greek:

    "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

    Restore is therefore certainly a valid translation.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
      This would be more of an interpretive paraphrase than a translation.

      καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί.

      I wouldn't even call that an "interpretive paraphrase." For starters, there is no Greek word for "restore" in the statement. In addition, the imperative is with the word glorify (δόξασόν). Had the apostle wanted to say what Jameson imagines, he would have written something along the following lines -- καὶ νῦν απόδος μοι σύ, Πάτερ, τὴν δόξαν ἣν εἶχον μετά σου πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι ..


      The NAS adequately captures the literal force of the Greek:

      "Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
      I wouldn't say that at all. The literal translation is somewhat as follows :

      "And now glorify me with Yourself Father, with the glory I possessed relative to you before the foundation of the Word."

      Note: παρὰ σοί is kind of an odd expression to use if we want to say "with you" in the sense of literally being with someone or sharing with someone. μετά with genitive would then have been used.


      Restore is therefore certainly a valid translation.
      But you just said it wasn't a "translation" but an "interpretive paraphrase."

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by John Milton View Post

        I wouldn't even call that an "interpretive paraphrase." For starters, there is no Greek word for "restore" in the statement. In addition, the imperative is with the word glorify (δόξασόν). Had the apostle wanted to say what Jameson imagines, he would have written something along the following lines -- καὶ νῦν απόδος μοι σύ, Πάτερ, τὴν δόξαν ἣν εἶχον μετά σου πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι ..




        I wouldn't say that at all. The literal translation is somewhat as follows :

        "And now glorify me with Yourself Father, with the glory I possessed relative to you before the foundation of the Word."

        Note: παρὰ σοί is kind of an odd expression to use if we want to say "with you" in the sense of literally being with someone or sharing with someone. μετά with genitive would then have been used.




        But you just said it wasn't a "translation" but an "interpretive paraphrase."
        It's a deception alrighty. Most are so blinded they don't even see this one coming. Jesus isn't talking about, nor does he mention, anything to do with reality before creation.

        I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. Now You, Father, glorify me alongside Yourself to that glory....

        He is talking about being glorified to that glory which he was having along with the Father in terms of the works he had been doing before the world.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by John Milton View Post

          I wouldn't even call that an "interpretive paraphrase." For starters, there is no Greek word for "restore" in the statement. In addition, the imperative is with the word glorify (δόξασόν). Had the apostle wanted to say what Jameson imagines, he would have written something along the following lines -- καὶ νῦν απόδος μοι σύ, Πάτερ, τὴν δόξαν ἣν εἶχον μετά σου πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι ..




          I wouldn't say that at all. The literal translation is somewhat as follows :

          "And now glorify me with Yourself Father, with the glory I possessed relative to you before the foundation of the Word."

          Note: παρὰ σοί is kind of an odd expression to use if we want to say "with you" in the sense of literally being with someone or sharing with someone. μετά with genitive would then have been used.




          But you just said it wasn't a "translation" but an "interpretive paraphrase."
          I always forget that in your own mind you know Greek better than anyone else in the universe (which has been proven demonstrably false over and over, but you never seem to take the correction). If you will, then call it a correct interpretive paraphrase, because it accurately brings out the meaning of the entire verse. "Relative to" is simply wrong. παρά:

          marker of nearness in space, at/by (the side of), beside, near, with, acc. to the standpoint fr. which the relationship is viewed

          Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, (3rd ed., p. 757). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

          But again, εἰδωλον παρά σοί ἐστι ὁ νοῦς σου, so I have no hope that you will even have a glimmer of why you are wrong.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

            It's a deception alrighty. Most are so blinded they don't even see this one coming. Jesus isn't talking about, nor does he mention, anything to do with reality before creation.

            I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given me to do. Now You, Father, glorify me alongside Yourself to that glory....

            He is talking about being glorified to that glory which he was having along with the Father in terms of the works he had been doing before the world.
            More proof that you don't know Greek and that all you have is a theological agenda. The Greek is very clear, as are the vast majority of English translations, and the attempts of to twist it out of the plain sense of the words would be amusing it it weren't so sad. The sense you would impute to this is simply impossible.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

              More proof that you don't know Greek and that all you have is a theological agenda. The Greek is very clear, as are the vast majority of English translations, and the attempts of to twist it out of the plain sense of the words would be amusing it it weren't so sad. The sense you would impute to this is simply impossible.
              I'm afraid not charlie.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Servant of the Lord View Post

                I'm afraid not charlie.
                What an amazing riposte! I'm pierced through the heart, and my arguments undone... Hahahaha, like, NOT. So feel to support your "reading" of the text from the Greek. I really want to see you do that.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                  I always forget that in your own mind you know Greek better than anyone else in the universe (which has been proven demonstrably false over and over, but you never seem to take the correction).
                  Interesting comment, since you insist on defending the "translation" which adds the imperative "restore" at John 17:5.


                  If you will, then call it a correct interpretive paraphrase, because it accurately brings out the meaning of the entire verse.
                  Interesting distortion, since the real imperative at John 17:5 ( δόξασόν ) is then no longer an imperative, for starters.

                  "Relative to" is simply wrong. παρά:
                  It's better than "with you" which is deceptive, sending the wrong signals in English. "In your counsel" or "in your midst" are also good translations here

                  marker of nearness in space, at/by (the side of), beside, near, with, acc. to the standpoint fr. which the relationship is viewed

                  Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, (3rd ed., p. 757). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

                  But again, εἰδωλον παρά σοί ἐστι ὁ νοῦς σου, so I have no hope that you will even have a glimmer of why you are wrong.
                  Notice that even your own source lists "with" last. This is simply not the phrase's typical use, especially where a tangible, on-going literal face to face relationship is involved. Also does your source furnish GNT examples ? Would be interesting to see. In any case, notice in John Chapter 17 what phrase Jesus uses, when he wishes to connote an intimate, literal relationship :


                  ὅτε ἤμην μετ’ αὐτῶν, ἐγὼ ἐτήρουν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, καὶ ἐφύλαξα, καὶ οὐδεὶς ἐξ αὐτῶν ἀπώλετο εἰ μὴ ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας, ἵνα ἡ γραφὴ πληρωθῇ.
                  John 17:12

                  Πατήρ, ὃ δέδωκάς μοι, θέλω ἵνα ὅπου εἰμὶ ἐγὼ κἀκεῖνοι ὦσιν μετ’ ἐμοῦ, ἵνα θεωρῶσιν τὴν δόξαν τὴν ἐμὴν, ἣν δέδωκάς μοι ὅτι ἠγάπησάς με πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
                  John 17:24

                  So it is clear that at John 17:5 when παρὰ σοί is used, something different is meant than at John 17:12 and 24.. But most translations hide this difference from English readers by translating the phrases in all three verses identically.
                  Last edited by John Milton; 06-20-19, 04:09 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    παρὰ with dative --

                    Matthew 6:1 --

                    Προσέχετε δὲ τὴν δικαιοσύνην ὑμῶν μὴ ποιεῖν ἔμπροσθεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων πρὸς τὸ θεαθῆναι αὐτοῖς· εἰ δὲ μήγε, μισθὸν οὐκ ἔχετε παρὰ τῷ Πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
                    The sense here is of a reward received(or not received) from the all knowing Father, contingent upon our actions both past, present and future on earth, which he is already privy to in lieu of his omniscience. This is the same sort of pre-destination type motif within which the expression at John 17:5 is also used.

                    Matthew 22:5 --

                    ἦσαν δὲ παρ’ ἡμῖν ἑπτὰ ἀδελφοί· καὶ ὁ πρῶτος γήμας ἐτελεύτησεν, καὶ μὴ ἔχων σπέρμα ἀφῆκεν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ·
                    "In our midst."

                    Matthew 28:15--

                    οἱ δὲ λαβόντες ἀργύρια ἐποίησαν ὡς ἐδιδάχθησαν. Καὶ διεφημίσθη ὁ λόγος οὗτος παρὰ Ἰουδαίοις μέχρι τῆς σήμερον ἡμέρας.

                    Same.. No intimate relationship motif.

                    Matthew 19:26--

                    ἐμβλέψας δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Παρὰ ἀνθρώποις τοῦτο ἀδύνατόν ἐστιν, παρὰ δὲ Θεῷ πάντα δυνατά.
                    Same here.

                    Same at Matt. 28:15, Mark 10:27,Luke 1:30,Luke 2:52,Luke 18:27,Luke 19:7,John 8:38, John 17:5 (παρὰ σεαυτῷ), John 19:25,... etc...

                    Where is this "literal , on-going intimate relationship" motif imagined at John 17:5 with παρὰ and dative to be found in the writings of apostle John ?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Matthew 19:26 came to my remembrance --

                      ἐμβλέψας δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Παρὰ ἀνθρώποις τοῦτο ἀδύνατόν ἐστιν, παρὰ δὲ Θεῷ πάντα δυνατά.
                      I would translate above as follows --

                      Jesus looked at them and said, "Relative to man this is impossible, but relative to God all things are possible."
                      Even the English translation of "with" for παρὰ + dative connotes this sense (!), and not of a personal relationship.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Romans 2:11–

                        οὐ γάρ ἐστιν προσωπολημψία παρὰ τῷ Θεῷ.

                        For there is no respect of persons with ( respect to) God.

                        For there is no respect of persons relative to God.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          What a mess this thread is, as it indicates the state of this forum - overrun with lies and foolishness.

                          "Give him back his money" is the same thing as "Restore his money to him."

                          Jesus specifically said that he had glory with his Father before the world was, and he asked to be glorified with that same glory. The word "restore" is certainly apt.

                          "Restore to me" = "Give me what I once had."

                          In this case, Jesus "emptied himself" (to take Paul's word) when he became a human, and then he asked to have what was set aside restored to him.

                          This isn't difficult to understand, I think.
                          I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jameson View Post
                            What a mess this thread is, as it indicates the state of this forum - overrun with lies and foolishness.

                            "Give him back his money" is the same thing as "Restore his money to him."

                            Jesus specifically said that he had glory with his Father before the world was, and he asked to be glorified with that same glory. The word "restore" is certainly apt.

                            "Restore to me" = "Give me what I once had."

                            In this case, Jesus "emptied himself" (to take Paul's word) when he became a human, and then he asked to have what was set aside restored to him.

                            This isn't difficult to understand, I think.
                            Where does Jesus say “give me” in John 17:5 let alone “give me back” ?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              The Greek verb for “give” is δίδωμι as in Δός μοι πεῖν. The Greek verb for “restore” is ἀποδίδωμι as in Ἀπόδος εἴ τι ὀφείλεις . Where are either of these verbs at John 17:5, let alone their imperative forms ?

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