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Does the Hebrew סעד in Isa 9:7 mean Messiah placed himself on the throne?

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  • Does the Hebrew סעד in Isa 9:7 mean Messiah placed himself on the throne?

    Oldshepherd posted the following on the Trinity board under "Trinitarians are in checkmate" under post #605 in response to my argument that the Messiah's enthronement was not his own doing, but God's doing. IOW, it wasn't until after being "enthroned" by God that Messiah establishes and upholds the throne of David.

    "Nothing but your opinion. Repeating the same thing two or three times does not make it any more correct. Do you know anything about Hebrew verbs? The Hebrew word סעד/sa'ad which is translated "establish" is a qal, which expresses the "simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice. Examples: He sat, he ate, he went, he said, he rose, he bought.

    The messiah in Is 9:6 performs the action. It was not done to or for him.
    If Isaiah had intended to say that the Messiah was placed on the throne he would have used the hiphal form of the verb."


    When I look up the wordסָעַד (transliterated saad) on Biblehub.com under the Hebrew tab, it's defined as follows:

    Qal...infinitive construct suffix וּלְסַעֲדָהּIsaiah 9:6; support, sustain, always figurative:

    2. a. support throne (subject king) Proverbs 20:28, coming ruler Isaiah 9:6.

    https://biblehub.com/hebrew/5582.htm

    While I get the Hebrew verb סָעַד in the QAL stem means that the coming ruler (Messiah) performs the action of supporting or sustaining it [the Davidic throne], I don't understand how סָעַד being in the Hiphil stem would have indicated that he, as opposed to God, was the one responsible for his enthronement ["placing" himself on the throne of David].

    [The Hiphil stem is generally used to express causative action in active voice].

    https://uhg.readthedocs.io/en/latest/stem_hiphil.html

    Again, my argument is that The LORD of Hosts is the one responsible for Messiah's enthronement, not the Messiah himself, which is in keeping with what scripture says unequivocally elsewhere (Lk 1:32-33; Acts 2:30), while the Messiah is the one directly responsible for establishing it and sustaining it [i.e., causing it to be established and strengthened]. What am I missing here?



  • #2
    Well, without going into all the technical details concerning the syntax, וּֽלְסַעֲדָ֔הּ, סעד in contest, has nothing to do with sitting or taking the throne. It means, as you have noted:

    qal: pf. סָעַד; impf. יִסְעַד, יִסְעָדֶנּוּ/דֶךָּ, תִּסְעָדֵנִי; impv. סְעָד־ Ju 195.8 (o !, cf. Bauer-L. Heb. 354c, ? rd. סְעַד), וּסְעָֽדָה, סַעֲדוּ, סְעָדֵנִי/דָהּ; inf. סַעֲדָהּ: 1. to support, sustain, with regard to helping individuals in distress (Chr. Barth Errettung 136f) Is 96 Ps 1836 203 414 9418 119117 Pr 2028; 2. to strengthen (with food) (cf. MHeb. סעודה meal, JArm. Sam. (Ben-H. Lit. Or. 2:593) סעד to give to eat), Fisher Parallels 2: p. 19f no. 32; לֵב, for the mind Ps 10415, for the self Gn 185 Ju 195.8, without לֵב 1K 137.

    Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (19942000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 761). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

    Standard English translations reflect this:

    Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it... (ESV)

    There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it...(NAS)

    Now, I take no position on the discussion you are having, only on the use of the Hebrew.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
      Well, without going into all the technical details concerning the syntax, וּֽלְסַעֲדָ֔הּ, סעד in contest, has nothing to do with sitting or taking the throne. It means, as you have noted:

      qal: pf. סָעַד; impf. יִסְעַד, יִסְעָדֶנּוּ/דֶךָּ, תִּסְעָדֵנִי; impv. סְעָד־ Ju 195.8 (o !, cf. Bauer-L. Heb. 354c, ? rd. סְעַד), וּסְעָֽדָה, סַעֲדוּ, סְעָדֵנִי/דָהּ; inf. סַעֲדָהּ: —1. to support, sustain, with regard to helping individuals in distress (Chr. Barth Errettung 136f) Is 96 Ps 1836 203 414 9418 119117 Pr 2028; —2. to strengthen (with food) (cf. MHeb. סעודה meal, JArm. Sam. (Ben-H. Lit. Or. 2:593) סעד to give to eat), Fisher Parallels 2: p. 19f no. 32; לֵב, for the mind Ps 10415, for the self Gn 185 Ju 195.8, without לֵב 1K 137. †

      Koehler, L., Baumgartner, W., Richardson, M. E. J., & Stamm, J. J. (1994–2000). The Hebrew and Aramaic lexicon of the Old Testament (electronic ed., p. 761). Leiden: E.J. Brill.

      Standard English translations reflect this:

      Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it... (ESV)

      There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it...(NAS)

      Now, I take no position on the discussion you are having, only on the use of the Hebrew.
      Thanks so much for your input. I searched online (Strong's) and other websites but couldn't find anything that specifically answers this question, but only was able to come up with what you pointed out above. I even asked Anthony Buzzard (via email), who according to Wikipedia gained a Diploma in Biblical Hebrew from the University of Jerusalem in 1970), but was told "Messiah is the subject of both verbs," which, doesn't specifically answer the question (I've learned that it's hard to get a definitive answer from him, for some reason).

      For the record, I'm only after the truth, and I'll go wherever the truth leads me. While I presently identify as a Unitarian Monotheist (used to be Oneness), I haven't fully bought into it, since I don't agree with a number of their interpretations on what I view as key passages (e.g., Heb 1:10 & Phl. 2).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by forever4truth View Post

        Thanks so much for your input. I searched online (Strong's) and other websites but couldn't find anything that specifically answers this question, but only was able to come up with what you pointed out above. I even asked Anthony Buzzard (via email), who according to Wikipedia gained a Diploma in Biblical Hebrew from the University of Jerusalem in 1970), but was told "Messiah is the subject of both verbs," which, doesn't specifically answer the question (I've learned that it's hard to get a definitive answer from him, for some reason).

        For the record, I'm only after the truth, and I'll go wherever the truth leads me. While I presently identify as a Unitarian Monotheist (used to be Oneness), I haven't fully bought into it, since I don't agree with a number of their interpretations on what I view as key passages (e.g., Heb 1:10 & Phl. 2).
        That honesty is so refreshing, and God always honors honest seeking after the truth. I'm a "card-carrying" Trinitarian, but that doesn't mean I buy into every argument that is used in support of the doctrine. There are bad arguments used by both sides out there.

        Comment


        • #5
          It's always a good idea to start by quoting the verse that you're asking about so that those who respond can have context immediately. The text (from Mechon Mamre) is:
          לם רבה (לְמַרְבֵּ֨ה) הַמִּשְׂרָ֜ה וּלְשָׁל֣וֹם אֵֽין־קֵ֗ץ עַל־כִּסֵּ֤א דָוִד֙ וְעַל־מַמְלַכְתּ֔וֹ לְהָכִ֤ין אֹתָהּ֙ וּֽלְסַעֲדָ֔הּ בְּמִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּבִצְדָקָ֑ה מֵֽעַתָּה֙ וְעַד־עוֹלָ֔ם קִנְאַ֛ת יְהוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת תַּֽעֲשֶׂה־זֹּֽאת׃
          The word in question is highlighted in blue.

          My first question is how you determined that this is about the Messiah.

          I would agree that the child who was born was the one who was seen to accomplish all of the infinitive expressions in the verse. That is, he would establish and sustain his kingdom with justice and righteousness. I think that קנאת יהוה in this verse should be read as objective, that it is this king who is zealous for God. His zeal for God and his desire to do God's will would be what accomplishes his establishment and maintenance of his kingdom in justice.
          I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jameson View Post
            It's always a good idea to start by quoting the verse that you're asking about so that those who respond can have context immediately. The text (from Mechon Mamre) is:
            לם רבה (לְמַרְבֵּ֨ה) הַמִּשְׂרָ֜ה וּלְשָׁל֣וֹם אֵֽין־קֵ֗ץ עַל־כִּסֵּ֤א דָוִד֙ וְעַל־מַמְלַכְתּ֔וֹ לְהָכִ֤ין אֹתָהּ֙ וּֽלְסַעֲדָ֔הּ בְּמִשְׁפָּ֖ט וּבִצְדָקָ֑ה מֵֽעַתָּה֙ וְעַד־עוֹלָ֔ם קִנְאַ֛ת יְהוָ֥ה צְבָא֖וֹת תַּֽעֲשֶׂה־זֹּֽאת׃
            The word in question is highlighted in blue.

            My first question is how you determined that this is about the Messiah.
            Thx for taking the time to address the question. Actually, I can't prove that it is about the Messiah, since Isa 9:6 is never quoted in the NT. That said, I personally tend to draw that conclusion based on the fact that it is sandwiched inbetween Isa 7:14 and 11. As such, I tend to understand it as having a "double-fulfillment," with it's near or immediate referent being king Hezekiah and it's far or ultimate referent being Messiah.

            I would agree that the child who was born was the one who was seen to accomplish all of the infinitive expressions in the verse. That is, he would establish and sustain his kingdom with justice and righteousness. I think that קנאת יהוה in this verse should be read as objective, that it is this king who is zealous for God. His zeal for God and his desire to do God's will would be what accomplishes his establishment and maintenance of his kingdom in justice.
            I agree with the above, but would qualify it by pointing out also that Isa 11 tells us the means by which this anointed king will accomplish his establishment and maintenance of his kingdom in righteousness & justice; namely, because of him being wonderfully imbued with the LORD's Spirit ("The Lord’s spirit will rest on him"..."He will take delight in obeying the Lord. He will not judge by mere appearances, or make decisions on the basis of hearsay"...."He will treat the poor fairly, and make right decisions for the downtrodden of the earth"..."Justice will be like a belt around his waist, integrity will be like a belt around his hips" (Isa 11:1-5, NET)

            What is your take on "The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this"? Do you understand these words to mean that the LORD of Hosts will be the One who will be ultimately responsible for bringing this prophecy to pass?

            IOW, the royal Davidic child to be born, will be the means by which the LORD of Hosts brings enduring peace and prosperity to His people?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by forever4truth View Post
              What is your take on "The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this"? Do you understand these words to mean that the LORD of Hosts will be the One who will be ultimately responsible for bringing this prophecy to pass?

              IOW, the royal Davidic child to be born, will be the means by which the LORD of Hosts brings enduring peace and prosperity to His people?
              As I said above, it seems to me to be more of an "objective genitive," though it's not technically a "genitive" in Hebrew. That is, it seems to be "zeal for the Lord" a desire to perform the commandments of God that stirs up in this king the justice and righteousness with which he establishes his throne. It doesn't seem to me that God is zealous to put him on the throne.
              I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

              Comment

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