Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

John 10:34, who are the gods ?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • John 10:34, who are the gods ?

    Yesterday while I was mulling over the scriptures, the Holy Spirit opened my eyes to the fact that Jesus had already given us an answer to this question. Yet for a long time I was too foolish to notice what was right in front of my eyes, even though I had read the following verse countless dozens of times. John 10:34 --


    34ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς Οὐκ ἔστιν γεγραμμένον ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὑμῶν ὅτι Ἐγὼ εἶπα Θεοί ἐστε; 35εἰ ἐκείνους εἶπεν θεοὺς πρὸς οὓς ὁ λόγος τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐγένετο, καὶ οὐ δύναται λυθῆναι ἡ γραφή, 36ὃν ὁ Πατὴρ ἡγίασεν καὶ ἀπέστειλεν εἰς τὸν κόσμον ὑμεῖς λέγετε ὅτι Βλασφημεῖς, ὅτι εἶπον Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ εἰμι; 37εἰ οὐ ποιῶ τὰ ἔργα τοῦ Πατρός μου, μὴ πιστεύετέ μοι·

    See it ? According to Jesus's interpretation, the "gods" of Psalm 82:1 are those human beings to whom the word of God came. And who are these folks ? Perhaps the following scriptures might help:

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 13:1


    καὶ ἀνέστη Δαυιδ τὸ πρωί καὶ λόγος κυρίου ἐγένετο πρὸς Γαδ τὸνπροφήτην τὸν ὁρῶντα Δαυιδ λέγων
    2 Samuel 24:11


    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Σαμαιαν ἄνθρωπον τοῦ θεοῦ λέγων
    1 Kings 12:22


    καὶ ἐγένετο ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Ηλιου
    1 Kings 17:8


    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με ἐκ δευτέρου λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς καὶεἶπα λέβητα ὑποκαιόμενον καὶ τὸ πρόσωπον αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ προσώπου βορρᾶ
    Jeremiah 1:13

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων τί σὺ ὁρᾷς Ιερεμια καὶ εἶπαβακτηρίαν καρυΐνην
    Jeremiah 1:11

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ησαιαν λέγων
    Isaiah 38:4

    καὶ ἐγενήθη λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Jeremiah 13:8

    καὶ ἐγένετο μετὰ τὰς ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 3:16

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 11:14

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου ἐν χειρὶ Αγγαιου τοῦ προφήτου λέγων
    Haggai 1:3

    αὐτὸς ἀπέστησεν τὸ ὅριον Ισραηλ ἀπὸ εἰσόδου Αιμαθ ἕως τῆςθαλάσσης τῆς Αραβα κατὰ τὸ ῥῆμα κυρίου θεοῦ Ισραηλ ὃ ἐλάλησεν ἐν χειρὶδούλου αὐτοῦ Ιωνα υἱοῦ Αμαθι τοῦ προφήτου τοῦ ἐκ Γεθχοβερ
    2 Kings 14:25

    τῇ τετράδι καὶ εἰκάδι τῷ ἑνδεκάτῳ μηνί οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ μὴν Σαβατ ἐν τῷδευτέρῳ ἔτει ἐπὶ Δαρείου ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρὸς Ζαχαριαν τὸν τοῦΒαραχιου υἱὸν Αδδω τὸν προφήτην λέγων
    Zechariah 1:7

    καὶ ἐγένετο λόγος κυρίου πρός με λέγων
    Ezekiel 21:18

    καὶ ἐγενήθη ῥῆμα κυρίου πρὸς Σαμουηλ λέγων
    1 Samuel 15:10


    καὶ ἐγένετο ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ λόγος κυρίου λέγων αἷμα εἰς πλῆθος ἐξέχεας καὶπολέμους μεγάλους ἐποίησας οὐκ οἰκοδομήσεις οἶκον τῷ ὀνόματί μου ὅτιαἵματα πολλὰ ἐξέχεας ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἐναντίον μου
    1 Ch. 22:8

    καὶ εἰσῆλθεν ἐκεῗ εἰς τὸ σπήλαιον καὶ κατέλυσεν ἐκεῗ καὶ ἰδοὺ ῥῆμακυρίου πρὸς αὐτὸν καὶ εἶπεν τί σὺ ἐνταῦθα Ηλιου
    1 Kings 19:9






    ἐπ᾽ ἀρχιερέων Ἅννα καὶ Καϊάφα ἐγένετο ῥῆμα θεοῦ ἐπὶ Ἰωάννην τὸντοῦ Ζαχαρίου υἱὸν ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ
    Luke 3:2

    καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν καθημένων ἐπὶ τῆς τραπέζης καὶ ἐγένετο λόγοςκυρίου πρὸς τὸν προφήτην τὸν ἐπιστρέψαντα αὐτὸν
    1 Kings 13:20

    etc., etc.

    Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Haggai, Isaiah, Samuel, Zechariah, etc. etc.... The "gods" in Psalm 82:1 are the OT prophets, according to Jesus. And therefore I agree with his interpretation .






  • #2
    Here is my reading of the chapter for more context.

    Comment


    • #3
      Sure. There is a long history of interpretation on the use of אלוהימ in Psalm 82, with the general consensus being that they are the human representatives of Yahweh functioning in a leadership capacity, representing the true God to Israel. The word may be used in different senses in different contexts. Jesus is using an a minore (kal va-khomer) argument here. "If these guys can be called gods, what about me, the actual Son of God?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Sure. There is a long history of interpretation on the use of אלוהימ in Psalm 82, with the general consensus being that they are the human representatives of Yahweh functioning in a leadership capacity, representing the true God to Israel.
        Bingo. The point is that Jesus was claiming to be the representative (albeit par excellence) of the true God of Israel here, he was not claiming to be God Himself.

        Let's do a simple thought experiment . Let's assume for a moment that in John 10:33 θεός means "YH-WH." In other words the Jews here were accusing Jesus of making himself "YH-WH."

        Pharisees: “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God [Almighty].”

        If this was the accusation, and most importantly, if Jesus agreed with this accusation , his response at John 10:34 would have been radically different. In fact his actual response contradicts the charge. You see, if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him that he was making himself God Almighty, he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty in his defense. So in John 10:34 Jesus would have choose from, say, Exodus 3:16:

        Jesus: " Is it not written in your law, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob ?"

        As is, Jesus uses a verse where the word אלוהימ / θεός does NOT mean God. And such a definition of θεός is incredibly hard to find in the OT. Jesus's choice of verse was very deliberate indeed.



        The word may be used in different senses in different contexts. Jesus is using an a minore (kal va-khomer) argument here. "If these guys can be called gods, what about me, the actual Son of God?"
        Correct (Argumentum a minori ad maius). In other words the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God.


        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
          Sure. There is a long history of interpretation on the use of אלוהימ in Psalm 82, with the general consensus being that they are the human representatives of Yahweh functioning in a leadership capacity, representing the true God to Israel. The word may be used in different senses in different contexts. Jesus is using an a minore (kal va-khomer) argument here. "If these guys can be called gods, what about me, the actual Son of God?"
          But, feeding the horse spiritual water in this case is to prove somehow or someway that the ACCUSATION is false. What was the ACCUSATION against Jesus?


          "You have made yourself G(g)od." (Unclear if this is an elohim or the Elohim, at least to me). If the accusation is that he made himself AN ELOHIM comparable to one of the saints in OT, then this argument of yours works, but there IS NO CLAIM THEN TO DEITY.

          If instead he was claiming to be GOD then this argument OF YOURS makes no sense at all. Do you see what you did senor? Sonorously you hoisted yourself by your own petarded la bomba, senor.

          Vrada la badda la bomba, your argument is pretty badda I mean bad sir.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by nothead View Post

            But, feeding the horse spiritual water in this case is to prove somehow or someway that the ACCUSATION is false. What was the ACCUSATION against Jesus?


            "You have made yourself G(g)od." (Unclear if this is an elohim or the Elohim, at least to me).
            Agree.


            If the accusation is that he made himself AN ELOHIM comparable to one of the saints in OT, then this argument of yours works, but there IS NO CLAIM THEN TO DEITY.
            Yep.

            If instead he was claiming to be GOD then this argument OF YOURS makes no sense at all.
            Also true.




            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by John Milton View Post

              Bingo. The point is that Jesus was claiming to be the representative (albeit par excellence) of the true God of Israel here, he was not claiming to be God Himself.

              Let's do a simple thought experiment . Let's assume for a moment that in John 10:33 θεός means "YH-WH." In other words the Jews here were accusing Jesus of making himself "YH-WH."

              Pharisees: “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God [Almighty].”

              If this was the accusation, and most importantly, if Jesus agreed with this accusation , his response at John 10:34 would have been radically different. In fact his actual response contradicts the charge. You see, if Jesus was agreeing with the Jews' (apparent) charge against him that he was making himself God Almighty, he would have cited one of the hundreds of verses from the OT where God declares Himself to be the Almighty in his defense. So in John 10:34 Jesus would have choose from, say, Exodus 3:16:

              Jesus: " Is it not written in your law, I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob ?"

              As is, Jesus uses a verse where the word אלוהימ / θεός does NOT mean God. And such a definition of θεός is incredibly hard to find in the OT. Jesus's choice of verse was very deliberate indeed.





              Correct (Argumentum a minori ad maius). In other words the logic is as follows -- If the prophets are called gods, how much more I [the prophet par excellence, Deut. 18:15) am justified in calling myself the son of God.

              You've almost got it right for a change, although why you have to write YH-WH as though that's somehow more correct than the standard Yahweh or YHWH I don't know. Anyway, notice that I said "almost." The reason that Jesus is the "prophet par excellence" is that he is Yahweh in the flesh, and his response, rather than contradicting the accusation, affirms it, but does so using particularly Rabbinic logic.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                You've almost got it right for a change, although why you have to write YH-WH as though that's somehow more correct than the standard Yahweh or YHWH I don't know. Anyway, notice that I said "almost." The reason that Jesus is the "prophet par excellence" is that he is Yahweh in the flesh, and his response, rather than contradicting the accusation, affirms it, but does so using particularly Rabbinic logic.
                “YH-WH” is not one of the gods, nor is He a prophet. Jesus’s identification with the gods (prophets) of Psalm 82 denies that he is God. As I said, if he was claiming to be God, he would have invoked a verse from the OT declaring him to be God, not a verse that declares human beings as gods.

                Comment


                • #9
                  At John 10:34 Jesus was arguing with his detractors on their own terms by using their own principles of logic. The reasoning is as follows : if the prophets are called gods , how much more the prophet par excellence deserves the title son of God . It would be illogical to conclude from such a reasoning process that Jesus was either God or claiming to be God .

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post

                    You've almost got it right for a change, although why you have to write YH-WH as though that's somehow more correct than the standard Yahweh or YHWH I don't know. Anyway, notice that I said "almost." The reason that Jesus is the "prophet par excellence" is that he is Yahweh in the flesh, and his response, rather than contradicting the accusation, affirms it, but does so using particularly Rabbinic logic.
                    Whyn't you EXPLAIN this so-called "rabbinic logic" and try not to stutter Hofstetter. I call your bluff and raise you a simple explanation sir.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nothead View Post

                      Whyn't you EXPLAIN this so-called "rabbinic logic" and try not to stutter Hofstetter. I call your bluff and raise you a simple explanation sir.
                      You will not receive one I wager, true to the magician’s modus operandi. He pretends to speak of logic, but his own position is quite devoid of it.

                      How is invoking the gods at Psalm 82 consistent with Jesus’’s apparent claim to being God in John 10:34? The logical principle קל וחומר ( all the more) demands just the reverse, that is, that Jesus is the prophet par excellent such that he deserves the titles of honour like son of God all the more.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by John Milton View Post

                        You will not receive one I wager, true to the magician’s modus operandi. He pretends to speak of logic, but his own position is quite devoid of it.

                        How is invoking the gods at Psalm 82 consistent with Jesus’’s apparent claim to being God in John 10:34? The logical principle קל וחומר ( all the more) demands just the reverse, that is, that Jesus is the prophet par excellent such that he deserves the titles of honour like son of God all the more.
                        It was back in 2011 I read your posts in the Trinity forum and gleaned much benefit. Thanks no matter what they say over here on this side of the Board.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by nothead View Post

                          It was back in 2011 I read your posts in the Trinity forum and gleaned much benefit. Thanks no matter what they say over here on this side of the Board.
                          I think it should now be clear to everyone that there is nothing in Jesus’s response in John 10:34 which affirms that he is God, but everything that he is a prophet (albeit par excellence ) like the “gods.” If “homoussious” is what Trinitarians have in mind in John 10:34, then ironically enough, he is here claiming to be of the same existence as human beings, not of God. The illusion which Trinitarianism has created in this verse is broken once this verse is carefully analyzed.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Daniel Wallace has a very strange and unscriptural (IMHO) take of who the "gods" are in Psalm 82:1, and who the God who stands in their midst is. He thinks they are the false, pagan gods and that the "God" mentioned here is El, the Cannanite High God, and not the God of the bible ! Here is Wallace, Net Bible :

                            God stands in2 the assembly of El;3 in the midst of the gods 4 he renders judgment.5

                            3tn The phrase עֲדַת אֵל (’adat ’el, “assembly of El”) appears only here in the OT. (1) Some understand “El” to refer to God himself. In this case he is pictured presiding over his own heavenly assembly. (2) Others take אֵל as a superlative here (“God stands in the great assembly”), as in Pss 36:6 and 80:10. (3) The present translation assumes this is a reference to the Canaanite high god El, who presided over the Canaanite divine assembly. (See Isa 14:13, where El’s assembly is called “the stars of El.”) In the Ugaritic myths the phrase ’dt ’ilm refers to the “assembly of the gods,” who congregate in King Kirtu’s house, where Baal asks El to bless Kirtu’s house (see G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 91). If the Canaanite divine assembly is referred to here in Ps 82:1, then the psalm must be understood as a bold polemic against Canaanite religion. Israel’s God invades El’s assembly, denounces its gods as failing to uphold justice, and announces their coming demise. For an interpretation of the psalm along these lines, see W. VanGemeren, “Psalms,” EBC 5:533-36.
                            ---

                            4sn The present translation assumes that the Hebrew term אֱלֹהִים (’elohim, “gods”) here refers to the pagan gods who supposedly comprise El’s assembly according to Canaanite religion. Those who reject the polemical view of the psalm prefer to see the referent as human judges or rulers (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to officials appointed by God, see Exod 21:6; 22:8-9; Ps 45:6) or as angelic beings (אֱלֹהִים sometimes refers to angelic beings, see Gen 3:5; Ps 8:5).
                            I find that Trinitarian "scholars" very often have difficulty identifying the true God of Israel, and not infrequently mistake Him for a pagan Deity, from John 1:1b to Psalm 82:1. I think this stems directly from the fact that they worship a false God (consisting of a Trinity of Persons), so it's no wonder that they cannot distinguish between the true God of the bible and a false God, or false gods in various scriptures. In the Ugaratic myth, the "Father" (El) is asked by the "Son" (Baal) to bless Kirtu's house. Not surprisingly, Wallace gravitates to this view.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by John Milton View Post
                              Daniel Wallace has a very strange and unscriptural (IMHO) take of who the "gods" are in Psalm 82:1, and who the God who stands in their midst is. He thinks they are the false, pagan gods and that the "God" mentioned here is El, the Cannanite High God, and not the God of the bible ! Here is Wallace, Net Bible :

                              God stands in2 the assembly of El;3 in the midst of the gods 4 he renders judgment.5



                              ---



                              I find that Trinitarian "scholars" very often have difficulty identifying the true God of Israel, and not infrequently mistake Him for a pagan Deity, from John 1:1b to Psalm 82:1. I think this stems directly from the fact that they worship a false God (consisting of a Trinity of Persons), so it's no wonder that they cannot distinguish between the true God of the bible and a false God, or false gods in various scriptures. In the Ugaratic myth, the "Father" (El) is asked by the "Son" (Baal) to bless Kirtu's house. Not surprisingly, Wallace gravitates to this view.
                              Wallace is ignoring the most simple fact of all. All elohim not YHWH Elohim (elohim of elohims) are not only LESSER elohim by kind or category, they are without exception, created BY YHWH Elohim in Judaism.

                              This Elohim Theory, which is really presupposition in the Jewish View, is exactly what Jesus was telling his detractors. He is not calling himself God Almighty at all. He is calling himself an ELOHIM and by so-called RABBINICAL LOGIC, this means Jesus is Second-Place elohim at the Right Hand of YHWH Elohim in Heaven.

                              The ODDER thing is, that the so-called ARIAN POSITION, Jesus being called the "monogenes theos" is considered FALSE by trinitarians, but this term is EXACTLY what they consider Jn 1:18 to say, the textual variant absolutely true. When considering ARIANS however they say Arians believe in a sub-god or DEMI-URGE, which cannot be true.

                              Yes there are INTERMEDIATE beings in heaven, GREATER THAN humans and LESSER THAN GOD. These were called "messengers" back in the day, but we have to know Elohim Theology to detect the principle.

                              And...historians consistently muck up the considerations of Arians by saying that they considered Jesus "the created God." It should be..."the created (ex nihilo) G(g)od." Elohim in other words, no upper or lower case specified "e."

                              And...trinitarians consistently mulch up the considerations of historians, saying that Arians were heretics who believed Jesus "a mere man." Not even CLOSE. Gots it wrong both ways, and two wongs don't make a white no matter how hahd they twy.

                              Let's give it another twy, baby...jest for the halibut, eh?

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X