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Indeclinable names in the bible

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  • Indeclinable names in the bible

    Often Hebrew names of Old Testament characters are not declined in the GNT. The most obvious example which comes to mind is יַעֲקֹב (Ἰακώβ), “Jacob.” The declinable form in Greek is Ἰάκωβος.

    So look at

    Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ Θεὸς Ἀβραὰμ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς Ἰσαὰκ καὶ ὁ Θεὸς Ἰακώβ; οὐκ ἔστιν ὁ Θεὸς νεκρῶν ἀλλὰ ζώντων.
    Matthew 22:32

    Here we have three names of three different Old Testament characters, none of them declined.

  • #2
    Good job, you've discovered something well known. Your point?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
      Good job, you've discovered something well known. Your point?
      ὁ ὢν is a name of an Old Testament Character.

      Comment


      • #4
        If only this thread had something to do with something other than the same old arguments that keep getting kicked around here!

        I will agree that the Revelation presents ὁ ὤν (not ὁ ὢν) as an undeclined form. If it were a text that had better Greek style, it would have been declined.

        ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος = from the one who is
        πρὸς τὸν ὄντα = to the one who is

        It is easily declined. The Greek is often messed up in the Revelation.

        Just look at ὁ ἦν for an example of bad Greek. It's clearly not good Greek.
        I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Jameson View Post
          If only this thread had something to do with something other than the same old arguments that keep getting kicked around here!

          I will agree that the Revelation presents ὁ ὤν (not ὁ ὢν) as an undeclined form. If it were a text that had better Greek style, it would have been declined.

          ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄντος = from the one who is
          πρὸς τὸν ὄντα = to the one who is

          It is easily declined. The Greek is often messed up in the Revelation.
          You speak from extreme ignorance (red above). It is not because the apostle's Greek is poor that he left ὁ ὢν in Revelation 1:4 undeclined, but because he wanted to send an unmistakable message to his readers that he is alluding to LXX Exodus 3:14 when he names the Father ὁ ὢν . Ref:

          14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ Θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν. καὶ εἶπεν· οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς ᾿Ισραήλ· ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέ με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
          Here is my reading of the chapter for more context.

          Apostle John is clearly able to decline names (and or titles) when he wishes to. Just look at the very first verse of this blessed book:

          Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ἣν ἔδωκεν αὐτῷ ὁ Θεός, δεῖξαι τοῖς δούλοις αὐτοῦ ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει, καὶ ἐσήμανεν ἀποστείλας διὰ τοῦ ἀγγέλου αὐτοῦ, τῷ δούλῳ αὐτοῦ
          Here is my reading of the chapter for more context.

          ---


          Just look at ὁ ἦν for an example of bad Greek. It's clearly not good Greek.
          As I said, you're speaking from ignorance when you speak such things against the apostle.

          Comment


          • #6
            (1) I couldn't care less about how "read" Greek. I'm still lost as to why you provide links to "how you read" any given text.

            (2) There is no way that you can possibly argue that ὁ ἦν is grammatical, unless you have no grasp at all of Greek. Oh, never mind... I guess you could argue such a thing.
            I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jameson View Post
              (1) I couldn't care less about how "read" Greek. I'm still lost as to why you provide links to "how you read" any given text.

              (2) There is no way that you can possibly argue that ὁ ἦν is grammatical, unless you have no grasp at all of Greek. Oh, never mind... I guess you could argue such a thing.
              With respect, it’s rather foolish to keep arguing that a title is “ungrammatical,” since titles ( even in English) by their very nature have almost limitless flexibility with the grammar they wield. It’s as silly as if you wanted to argue that the English titles “the doer” or “the IT” or “the one who was” etc. are “ungrammatical.” Who decides where to draw the line with how creative the grammar may be with titles ?

              Also bear in mind that the article in Koine is more flexible than it’s English counterpart such that in the expression ὁ ἦν it has the force of a relative pronoun, so that it essentially means “who was” and not “ the was.”

              You need to stop trying to convince yourself that “John’s” Greek is weak. You are the one with the Attic hash and the Erasmian pronunciation.

              Comment


              • #8
                Here is some bizarre biblical "exegesis" by Danie Wallace at Rev. 1:4. I suggest a full watch of the video . Extract:

                "So what is John doing here ? He could have used an aorist perhaps of γίνομαι, but that idea would be 'he became.' And I think what he is trying to communicate is that 'I'm talking to you about the person who is, who was, and who is to come, NAMELY the LORD JESUS CHRIST.' And when he speaks about him as 'the he was' then he is really referring back, I think, to the Johannine prologue, if it's the same author. And basically you have there is εἰμί used of 'Deity' and γίνομαι used of creation. It's really an interesting distinction which you have going on. Raymond Brown in his Commentary on the Gospel of John, does a masterful job....But here you have something where the author is using unusual syntax for the sake of the theological point he is making. So I have to say the grammar is atrocious, the theology is, is really decent. Sometimes these writers go far beyond even how it is used elsewhere in Koine Greek. Now, we want to look at the article at....
                It's a lot of nonsense. For starters ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος cannot be Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is distinguished from this "person" in the immediate context. See red below.

                Ἰωάνης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ Πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ θρόνου αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἀπὸ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὁ μάρτυς ὁ πιστός, ὁ πρωτότοκος τῶν νεκρῶν καὶ ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς. Τῷ ἀγαπῶντι ἡμᾶς καὶ λύσαντι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ἡμῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι αὐτοῦ,
                So do not be deceived by Wallace's magic trick at Revelation 1:4. ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος is a reference to the Father in Heaven, not to Jesus. Wallace sometimes however does make token valid grammatical points .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Is there anyone here who agrees with Daniel Wallace that ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος in Rev. 1:4 is Jesus ? Like to hear from you .

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