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Question on First Timothy One Fifteen

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  • Question on First Timothy One Fifteen

    Is there any truth to the claim that...

    ἀλλὰ διὰ τοῦτο ἠλεήθην, ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ πρώτῳ ἐνδείξηται Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τὴν ἅπασαν μακροθυμίαν, πρὸς ὑποτύπωσιν τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν ἐπ’ αὐτῷ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    ...could or should be translated (contrary to every solitary translation I've read)...

    “But on account of this I received mercy, in order that by me first, Jesus Christ might demonstrate all patience, as a pattern to those who would thereafter believe upon Him for eternal life.”
    Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
    Is there any truth to the claim that...

    ἀλλὰ διὰ τοῦτο ἠλεήθην, ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ πρώτῳ ἐνδείξηται Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τὴν ἅπασαν μακροθυμίαν, πρὸς ὑποτύπωσιν τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν ἐπ’ αὐτῷ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον.

    ...could or should be translated (contrary to every solitary translation I've read)...

    “But on account of this I received mercy, in order that by me first, Jesus Christ might demonstrate all patience, as a pattern to those who would thereafter believe upon Him for eternal life.”
    Even though I am almost certain there is more to this question than you are revealing, I will give you my two cents:

    ἀλλὰ διὰ τοῦτο ἠλεήθην ("But on account of this I received mercy") Perfectly acceptable translation.

    ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ πρώτῳ ("in order that by me first") This works, but there are some things that people will no doubt squabble about. I would say the most notable of these are the "instrumental" translation of ἐν and the intended meaning of πρώτῳ.

    ἐνδείξηται Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τὴν ἅπασαν μακροθυμίαν ("Jesus Christ might demonstrate all patience") Perfectly acceptable translation, but I think it undersells the thought.

    πρὸς ὑποτύπωσιν τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν ἐπ’ αὐτῷ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ("as a pattern to those who would thereafter believe upon Him for eternal life") This is an acceptable rendering, but it seems likely to me that it was framed in this manner to accommodate a theological point. My reason for thinking this is the unusual translation of the phrase τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν as "who would thereafter believe" rather than something like "for the ones who are going to believe." The rendering you provided here could erroneously be understood to mean that Paul's conversion was intended to mark a change in the manner that people were supposed to believe on Jesus for eternal life before and after Paul's conversion, especially when taken with the translation "first" for πρώτῳ. I think the translation given here, though acceptable on a grammatical level, is worded in a manner that could easily be misunderstood. The question I can't answer for you is whether or not it was intentional.

    Hope this helps.

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    • #3
      Off topic a bit, but seeing "one fifteen" written out as words instead of 1:15 really threw me, even though when seeing 1:15 I say the words if reading the reference aloud, say in a church service. Seeing it the other way I had to "translate" it back into numerals to look it up...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by CL4P-TP View Post
        Even though I am almost certain there is more to this question than you are revealing, I will give you my two cents:

        ἀλλὰ διὰ τοῦτο ἠλεήθην ("But on account of this I received mercy") Perfectly acceptable translation.

        ἵνα ἐν ἐμοὶ πρώτῳ ("in order that by me first") This works, but there are some things that people will no doubt squabble about. I would say the most notable of these are the "instrumental" translation of ἐν and the intended meaning of πρώτῳ.

        ἐνδείξηται Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τὴν ἅπασαν μακροθυμίαν ("Jesus Christ might demonstrate all patience") Perfectly acceptable translation, but I think it undersells the thought.

        πρὸς ὑποτύπωσιν τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν ἐπ’ αὐτῷ εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον ("as a pattern to those who would thereafter believe upon Him for eternal life") This is an acceptable rendering, but it seems likely to me that it was framed in this manner to accommodate a theological point. My reason for thinking this is the unusual translation of the phrase τῶν μελλόντων πιστεύειν as "who would thereafter believe" rather than something like "for the ones who are going to believe." The rendering you provided here could erroneously be understood to mean that Paul's conversion was intended to mark a change in the manner that people were supposed to believe on Jesus for eternal life before and after Paul's conversion, especially when taken with the translation "first" for πρώτῳ. I think the translation given here, though acceptable on a grammatical level, is worded in a manner that could easily be misunderstood. The question I can't answer for you is whether or not it was intentional.

        Hope this helps.
        I was asking because someone I know was arguing that the Greek pointed to this being a "Romans 7 / Romans 8" type "pre-Christ / post-Christ" framing--that he is taking us through that moment. The reason he argued this was that he wanted to dismiss the idea that Paul would identify as "the chief of sinners" in the present since he knows he is a saint. He said that "I am (foremost)", together with some other part of the phrasing, was critical to seeing that he doesn't currently see himself this way. It would require that Paul would have seen himself in two lights, yes, but that doesn't make it impossible to read it that way (we see ourselves in two lights all of the time--we're seated in heavenly places in one sense, but we're on earth in another, etc).

        (Before it becomes an issue, Romans 7:7-24 is pre-Christ: v5 "while we were in the flesh" but 8:9 "you are not in the flesh but in the spirit", and "the good I want to do I do not do" but 8:4 "the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us" and "but I see another law in my members... taking me captive" but 7:24-2 "Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thank God through Christ Jesus... There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, for the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set me free from the Law of Sin and Death in the flesh".)

        I looked some other ways people have translated the passage in question up, and I found this other way that someone translated it, but he had some kooky views about salvation pre-Paul vs post-Paul. Not really interested in what he has to say. I do not hold to his views.

        Thanks
        Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Barry Hofstetter View Post
          Off topic a bit, but seeing "one fifteen" written out as words instead of 1:15 really threw me, even though when seeing 1:15 I say the words if reading the reference aloud, say in a church service. Seeing it the other way I had to "translate" it back into numerals to look it up...
          I hadn't used the forums for a while, but had remembered that there were certain characters (didn't remember which ones) which could not be used in that "Title" field.
          Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

          Comment


          • #6
            bump
            Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

            Comment


            • #7
              Would it be fair to say that Paul was saying he was the foremost of sinners before being saved or that he was the foremost of sinners after being saved?

              If he meant he was still the foremost of sinners after being saved how would you square that with the fact that he addresses the churches as "saints"?

              A friend was saying the Greek for "I am foremost" showed that Paul never intended to describe himself as a Christian as "foremost of sinners".
              Ro 3:3-8, 4:5; Gal 2:17 You must be ungodly to be justified.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Daniel. View Post
                Would it be fair to say that Paul was saying he was the foremost of sinners before being saved or that he was the foremost of sinners after being saved?

                If he meant he was still the foremost of sinners after being saved how would you square that with the fact that he addresses the churches as "saints"?

                A friend was saying the Greek for "I am foremost" showed that Paul never intended to describe himself as a Christian as "foremost of sinners".
                If you are asking a question about Greek, it really can't be answered with precision unless you clearly articulate your question and provide the verse you have in mind. My post is an attempt to read your mind because you haven't done that here. I am assuming that you are referring to I Tim. 1:15. There are many explanations for what Paul says here, and the Greek doesn't prove or disprove any of them on its own. For example, Paul could be using hyperbolic language. He could be saying that he truly believes himself to be the chiefest sinner because of the inadequacy of his response to his calling. He could be saying that he believes that he is the greatest sinner on the planet. He could be saying that he is one of the first sinners Jesus saved, etc.

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