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Why is Jeremiah 8:8 so hard to translate?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Jameson View Post

    I don't think people did generally know what the Torah said. Look at Josiah's reign, where a book of Torah was discovered in the ruins of the neglected Temple of Solomon. They were shocked to see what it had to say. They didn't know it it at all! Even the high priest who was working in the Temple didn't know the text! They discovered the book and were entirely flipped out at its contents. So, no, I don't think that the common man knew the Torah at all.

    Whereas there were some texts that were incorporated into the text of the Torah that were extant during the time of the first Temple (and poems by David, for example), the majority of the text of the Bible was edited and redacted during the time of Josiah and even later (at least until the time of Ezra). I am not sure that there was a "Torah" that the people generally believed in before that time. Even the authority of the high priest would have been basically ignored in the earlier generations of Israel.
    The Muslims who misuse Jeremiah 8:8 to try to prove the text of the law was "corrupted" go against the teachings of the Qur'an because according to the author of the Qur'an:
    1. The Children of Israel possess the Scripture, the Tawrat. (2:40-47,101; 5:41-49)
    2. The Children of Israel are readers of the Scripture (2:40-44, 113, 121; 10:95), teach and study it. (3:78,79)
    3. The Children of Israel show the Scriptures. (6:92)
    4. The Tawrat is to judge the Children of Israel. (5:43)
    5. Later generations are taught and exhorted to have faith in and hold fast the previous Scripture. (19:12; 66:12; 3:48)
    6. Jews and Christians are to observe the Tawrat and Injil, apart from which they do not have guidance. (5:65-69)
    In fact the Qur'an claims it confirms past revelations in many verses -- here are two:

    And believe in that I have sent down, confirming that which IS with you, and be not the first to disbelieve in it. And sell not My signs for a little price; and fear you Me. S. 2:41

    He sent down to you this scripture, truthfully, confirming all previous scriptures, and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel. S. 3:3 Khalifa

    The problem the Muslims face is that even though the author of the Qur'an claims to confirm past Scriptures, it actually contradicts them.










    They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

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    • #17
      Have you seen this series of videos?
      I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Jameson View Post
        Have you seen this series of videos?
        I listened to some minutes of it. I did see a video similar and don't know if it was a condensed version of Jay Smith's presentation. So, I have heard that the original direction of prayer was toward Petra and not Mecca.

        I'll try to find 3 hours to listen to this series.

        Thanks.

        They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by George View Post

          I listened to some minutes of it. I did see a video similar and don't know if it was a condensed version of Jay Smith's presentation. So, I have heard that the original direction of prayer was toward Petra and not Mecca.

          I'll try to find 3 hours to listen to this series.

          Thanks.
          It really is illuminating. I’m so glad that people are finally doing historical investigations into Islam. Jay Smith is basically convinced that Muhammad was a character created by Abd al-Malik [عبد الملك] in his religious reforms of the seventh century, which included the formulation of the Shahada (“There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.”) and in the actual writing of the Qur’an (which found its source in his reforms and not in the life and teachings of Muhammad). Very fascinating.
          I have permission to post on the Biblical Languages forum, as per email correspondence with Diane S.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Jameson View Post
            . Jay Smith is basically convinced that Muhammad was a character created by Abd al-Malik [عبد الملك] in his religious reforms of the seventh century, which included the formulation of the Shahada (“There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his messenger.”) and in the actual writing of the Qur’an (which found its source in his reforms and not in the life and teachings of Muhammad). Very fascinating.]
            It is an interesting theory. My friend who is in that field of apologetics to the islamists would not go that far, more like embellishment than character fabrication, while respecting the more revisionist view of Jay Smith and Robert Spencer.

            =================

            George is right that the islamists have a fudnamental discordance, in claiming to be built on the OT and NT scriptures and revelations, and then attacking the foundation on various pretexts. If God fooled the Jews and Charistians with unreliable scripture, how could you assume he would get it right on the new Round Three?

            =================

            There is a similar issue with the "God has no Son" approach. The Son of God is defined in the NT:

            Luke 1:35
            And the angel answered and said unto her,
            The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
            and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
            therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

            The virgin birth is the key, and the islamists accept that as historical, the Quran has a twist or two, but if they accepted the New Testament definition they would see Jesus as the Son of God.

            This does not come up too much in apologetics because the Christian side often has flipped the Son of God into God the Son, leaving scripture.

            ===================

            Steven
            Last edited by Steven Avery; 02-17-19, 05:32 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
              It is an interesting theory. My friend who is in that field of apologetics to the islamists would not go that far, more like embellishment than character fabrication, while respecting the more revisionist view of Jay Smith and Robert Spencer.

              =================

              George is right that the islamists have a fudnamental discordance, in claiming to be built on the OT and NT scriptures and revelations, and then attacking the foundation on various pretexts. If God fooled the Jews and Charistians with unreliable scripture, how could you assume he would get it right on the new Round Three?

              =================

              There is a similar issue with the "God has no Son" approach. The Son of God is defined in the NT:

              Luke 1:35
              And the angel answered and said unto her,
              The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee,
              and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
              therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

              The virgin birth is the key, and the islamists accept that as historical, the Quran has a twist or two, but if they accepted the New Testament definition they would see Jesus as the Son of God.

              This does not come up too much in apologetics because the Christian side often has flipped the Son of God into God the Son, leaving scripture.

              ===================

              Steven
              Muslims believe that their Allah has no son in any sense of the word.

              When I first read the Qur'an I didn't know much about Christianity, but I knew enough to know that Christians do not believe God had sex with Mary and Jesus was the result.

              "They say (the Christians): "Allah hath begotten a son!" Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in heaven and on earth! No warrant have ye for this!" Surah 10:68

              And they make the jinn associates with Allah, while He created them, and they falsely attribute to Him sons and daughters without knowledge; glory be to Him, and highly exalted is He above what they ascribe (to Him). Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things. S. 6:100-101 Shakir

              Allah needs a wife in order to have a son.

              Since "begotten" is the English transliteration of the Greek word " monogenes" " which means "unique" or "one and only" or "one of a kind" in regard to Jesus, why would this word upset Allah enough to say it is "a terrible evil thing" when the word does not mean sex in regard to Jesus?

              The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is the saying from their mouth; (In this) they are intimate; what the Unbelievers of the old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. [Qur'an 9:3]

              Commentary in my Qur'an:

              "It is a derogation from the glory of Godin fact it is blasphemy to say that God begets sons, like a man or an animal. The Christian doctrine is here emphatically repudiated. If words have any meaning, it would mean an attribution to God of a material nature, and of the lower animal functions of sex."

              All because of the word "begotten."



              ​​​​​​​
              They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. John 16:2

              Comment


              • #22
                Are you aware of the quran annunciation account?
                Which is an acknowledgement of the virgin birth.

                Would you be able to compare that with the NT definition of Son of God in Luke 1:35?

                Comment


                • #23
                  For the monogenes issues, only-begotten, we can revisit:

                  Originally posted by Steven Avery View Post
                  monogenes studies

                  Good question, Polyb
                  There are a few excellent resources on this topic. One is the series of articles by Michael Marlowe.


                  The Only Begotten Son (ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός)
                  by Michael Marlowe
                  http://www.bible-researcher.com/only-begotten.html

                  Büchsel onμονογενής
                  Berkhof on the Eternal Generation of the Son
                  John R. Wilson on the in Parmenides


                  In 2012, I wrote about this article and some others on TC-Alternate, if I give the url it might get kaboshed since it is my post, it shows up in google:

                  [TC-Alternate-list] John 1:18 - the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

                  And on Facebook, various elements of this were recently discussed here, on a forum hosted by James Snapp:

                  Day 2 of the investigation of John 1:18 --
                  https://www.facebook.com/groups/NTTe...2057399214595/


                  And, one resource that looks helpful that I have not really checked out is:

                  Studies in the Usage of the Greek Word Μονογενής,
                  As Found in the Gospel of John, the Epistle to Hebrews,
                  First Clement andOther Sources
                  Variously Translated as Only-Begotten, One of a Kind, and One and Only

                  by B. P. Harris, 2006

                  Steven Avery

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