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  • #16
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

    12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— so many problems... Sin entered the world with Adam? You believe that? Yet the serpent arrived in the garden with evil intent and Eve sinned at least in two maybe three ways before she enticed Adam and he was the THIRD to sin in the garden!!! Oh lets hear the magic of how these words do not tell the truth straight up! I contend that sin entered the world with him because when he was sown, breathed, into his body of dust, he was already a sinner and the first to enter the world of the garden.
    No problems. Adam was made first, so he became the archetype of all humanity, and he was made righteous when God breathed life into him. Eve was made from man, so she's not the archetype of mankind. The sin nature is passed down through the male line, which is why Jesus could be born of a woman and be without a sin nature.

    God breathed his spirit into Adam, and that caused Adam to become a living soul. (Gen 2:7) So your "contention" is without merit.

    While sin may have been in the world because Satan was here, sin entered into humanity through Adam when he disobeyed God and ate the "forbidden fruit". While Satan was probably on Earth before Adam was made, because he had no authority over God's creation his presence had no more effect on the spiritual nature of the world than a cow.

    There is no evidence that Satan was in the Garden before man was. Even though he was on Earth before Adam was made, he was not the Federal head of humanity.
    Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

    Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by AlFin View Post

      No problems. Adam was made first, so he became the archetype of all humanity, and he was made righteous when God breathed life into him. Eve was made from man, so she's not the archetype of mankind.
      Oh, I understand the theo-babble used to justify their blasphemies that GOD created HIS bride as evil and putrid in sin by inheriting Adam's sinful nature against HIS revealed nature as lovingly righteous. HE is light in whom there is no darkness at all but HE put HIS innocent Family and HIS innocent Church into the bloodline of the only sinner available to make them evil and sinful for NO REASON AT ALL, ESPECIALLY NO GOOD REASON! When you get tired of believing that the loving GOD could do something so evil, look me up.

      God breathed his spirit into Adam, and that caused Adam to become a living soul. (Gen 2:7) So your "contention" is without merit.
      All theology is based upon personal interpretation of what is meant, unless you consider that you have been led by the Holy Spirit HIMself and then you are interpreting what you were told. Your interpretation fails IF the true definition of soul is a spirit locked inside a physical body. Adam was in the spirit world where he was created then was moved, he was sown as a spirit into his new body of dust and became a 'soul', a spirit locked in a physical body. Your interpretation has no more validity than this...but because it is used to support grave blasphemy is very suspect.

      While sin may have been in the world because Satan was here, sin entered into humanity through Adam when he disobeyed God and ate the "forbidden fruit".
      Oh, but the word says sin entered the world by one man, Rom 5:12...You are not allowed to change this to suit your theology, eh?

      This also lies in the face of another Verse of GOD: Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. yet you are trying to convince me that we share the guilt of our parent because he was an archetype or a federal head? Gee, I guess someone better get in touch with Ezekiel and give him the news... These verses cannot be contradicting themselves and since there is no bible basis, just a very strong theological need for the federal headship pov, and the fact that it envisions blasphemy of HIS good name against HIS being Loving and Righteous, I will continue to take the pass on this horrible idea.

      Go ahead and tell me why, after HE had just proved HE could make people innocent, HE would then make everyone else in HIS Church Family evil in Adam's sin and NOT INNOCENT!??? I'll wait...

      While Satan was probably on Earth before Adam was made, because he had no authority over God's creation his presence had no more effect on the spiritual nature of the world than a cow.
      Except Eve was not following any cow when she idolized the serpent as a mentor or or even a pastor above her GOD and HIS command and blithely followed his encouragements to sin.

      There is no evidence that Satan was in the Garden before man was.
      So what? He came to them sooner or later with evil intent proving he sinned in the world before they did. In fact was he not thrown to earth for his sin? Was this after Adam's sin? Obviously not, it was before Adam's sin in the garden and he was in the world when all was declared to be very good.
      I champion GOD’s holiness:
      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
      - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

      I champion Our Free will:
      - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        Oh, I understand the theo-babble used to justify their blasphemies that GOD created HIS bride as evil and putrid in sin by inheriting Adam's sinful nature against HIS revealed nature as lovingly righteous. HE is light in whom there is no darkness at all but HE put HIS innocent Family and HIS innocent Church into the bloodline of the only sinner available to make them evil and sinful for NO REASON AT ALL, ESPECIALLY NO GOOD REASON! When you get tired of believing that the loving GOD could do something so evil, look me up.
        Gen 1:26-31
        26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

        27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

        28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
        29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground everything that has the breath of life in it I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
        31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
        NIV

        God did not create Adam sinful. He DID, however, create him with a free will. And by his free will Adam disobeyed God's direct command.


        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        All theology is based upon personal interpretation of what is meant, unless you consider that you have been led by the Holy Spirit HIMself and then you are interpreting what you were told. Your interpretation fails IF the true definition of soul is a spirit locked inside a physical body.

        Adam was in the spirit world where he was created then was moved, he was sown as a spirit into his new body of dust and became a 'soul', a spirit locked in a physical body. Your interpretation has no more validity than this...but because it is used to support grave blasphemy is very suspect.
        And your theology is not based upon personal interpretation of what is meant?


        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        Oh, but the word says sin entered the world by one man, Rom 5:12...You are not allowed to change this to suit your theology, eh?
        I didn't change anything. Rom 5:12 reiterates what I posted from Genesis.


        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        This also lies in the face of another Verse of GOD: Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. yet you are trying to convince me that we share the guilt of our parent because he was an archetype or a federal head? Gee, I guess someone better get in touch with Ezekiel and give him the news... These verses cannot be contradicting themselves and since there is no bible basis, just a very strong theological need for the federal headship pov, and the fact that it envisions blasphemy of HIS good name against HIS being Loving and Righteous, I will continue to take the pass on this horrible idea.
        Ezekiel 18:21 does not have any bearing on how sin entered humanity, If Adam had not disobeyed God sin would not have entered the human race.

        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        Go ahead and tell me why, after HE had just proved HE could make people innocent, HE would then make everyone else in HIS Church Family evil in Adam's sin and NOT INNOCENT!??? I'll wait...
        God made Adam sinless, innocent. It was Adam's choice that caused him to die spiritually (become separated from God).

        Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
        So what? He [Satan] came to them sooner or later with evil intent proving he sinned in the world before they did. In fact was he not thrown to earth for his sin? Was this after Adam's sin? Obviously not, it was before Adam's sin in the garden and he was in the world when all was declared to be very good.
        Adam was not created in the image and likeness of Satan. Therefore, Satan being on Earth did not cause sin to enter the human race. And you're assuming that Satan was cast to earth before Adam was created. Your own quote of Romans 5:12 shows that sin entered the world through Adam and not Satan.

        Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

        Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
          God did not create Adam sinful. He DID, however, create him with a free will. And by his free will Adam disobeyed God's direct command.
          I agree!! Totally!!! But this cannot have happened in the garden or the story makes GOD to be careless or cruel. I also reject that HE made us any different from Adam and therefore we chose to be sinners by our free will just like he did.

          Did you ever notice that the word Naked used of Adam and Eve is the same word as Subtle used to describe the evil of the serpent? The vowels that make it one or the other were not added until c600AD. Interesting eh? Meaningful or just GOD being careless with words?

          And your theology is not based upon personal interpretation of what is meant?
          Of course it is...all theology is duelling interpretations. But I contend my interpretation frees us from having to blaspheme to make it work.

          Ezekiel 18:21 does not have any bearing on how sin entered humanity, If Adam had not disobeyed God sin would not have entered the human race.
          Of course it does - if it is true, then GOD couldn't make us guilty in Adam's sin! A person can only be guilty of his own sin. Thus there can be no sinful guilt from birth or conception due to Adam!

          Adam was not created in the image and likeness of Satan. Therefore, Satan being on Earth did not cause sin to enter the human race. And you're assuming that Satan was cast to earth before Adam was created. Your own quote of Romans 5:12 shows that sin entered the world through Adam and not Satan.
          I did not argue that sin entered the world before Adam...if you read back you'll see I suggest that since both the serpent and Eve sinned before Adam, the only way that Rom 5:12 could be true was if he was already a sinner when he was breathed into his body of dust as a spirit becoming a living soul, before anyone else was put on the earth. I champion Rom 5:12 as telling the truth that Adam was a sinner before he was breathed into his body, before he and Eve were put into the garden and before he ate...after the other two had sinned. I just use logic to get there, not rote theology...


          I champion GOD’s holiness:
          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
          - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

          I champion Our Free will:
          - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
            I agree!! Totally!!! But this cannot have happened in the garden or the story makes GOD to be careless or cruel. I also reject that HE made us any different from Adam and therefore we chose to be sinners by our free will just like he did.
            So, you think God making mankind with a free will was "careless or cruel"?

            I agree, however, until a child actually sins and knows it his spiritual nature is blameless. That's where the "age of accountability" doctrine comes from.


            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

            Did you ever notice that the word Naked used of Adam and Eve is the same word as Subtle used to describe the evil of the serpent? The vowels that make it one or the other were not added until c600AD. Interesting eh? Meaningful or just GOD being careless with words?
            Not according to the Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament.or Old Testament Word Studies. God isn't the one being careless with words. I would trust those who added the vowels knew more about how to do it than you do.


            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

            Of course it is...all theology is duelling interpretations. But I contend my interpretation frees us from having to blaspheme to make it work.
            The truth is not blasphemous.


            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

            Of course it does - if it is true, then GOD couldn't make us guilty in Adam's sin! A person can only be guilty of his own sin. Thus there can be no sinful guilt from birth or conception due to Adam!
            If this is true then God cannot make us righteous because of Christ's death on the cross, the righteous for the unrighteous. There is a reason Jesus is called the Second Adam.


            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

            I did not argue that sin entered the world before Adam...if you read back you'll see I suggest that since both the serpent and Eve sinned before Adam, the only way that Rom 5:12 could be true was if he was already a sinner when he was breathed into his body of dust as a spirit becoming a living soul, before anyone else was put on the earth.
            Adam was just a "bunch of dirt" before God breathed his life into him, by what you're saying dirt is sinful. And since his spirit came from God, God would have to have breathed sin into Adam. Now that's blasphemous.

            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

            I champion Rom 5:12 as telling the truth that Adam was a sinner before he was breathed into his body, before he and Eve were put into the garden and before he ate...after the other two had sinned. I just use logic to get there, not rote theology...
            You can "champion" any view you want to, many on this board do that, but I'm going to stick with what Scripture says about it.
            Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

            Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
              Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
              One man, Jesus-Christ, got-it right for everyone

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Pierre View Post

                One man, Jesus-Christ, got-it right for everyone
                Yes, thank you, Father!
                Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Romans 8:19-21
                  19For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
                  20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

                  -God reveals something about himself in the way he created mankind, in that he made us free moral agents. He wants us to follow him because we love him , not like a robot that was pre-programmed. We/the creature, were "Made Subject" to things/vanity, that could harm the relationship, it was the only way to be sure ...that it was borne of love.
                  - So he reveals that he desires affection. Hmmm we truly are created in his image.
                  -The reason Why? Look at the second part of verse 20, The one who made us this way(God)subjected us to the possibilty of being drawn away from following him. Meaning they could be tempted, by desires that were against God.
                  -We were created/ with the (Hope )-that we would follow God, without respect to the sacrifices that would have to be made(in denying ourself) for this relationship to work. The Hope is that we would follow God with our heart/from our heart, not because we were forced to.
                  -We just have to ask ourselves, Is it worth it..How much does it mean to us? / Same criteria necessary for any healthy relationship.

                  21Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                    It was part of the Plan of redemption from before the creation. God did things the way He did, so as to prove His WISDOM in the way they'll all work out in the end.

                    Simple as that.
                    Riiiight...especially without this plan there would be no need for redemption, if everyone was created innocent like Adam and not in his sin.

                    HE creates us corrupt and suffering so HE can cure us later---this is to HIS glory, exactly how?

                    Creating us perfectly innocent with a free will and then saving us from our foolishness in choosing to become evil, now that is salvation ! that is Glory!
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                      Ezek 18:20 only states that the person who commits a sin is the only one responsible for the consequences.
                      The consequences of Adam's sin cannot be put upon us.
                      I champion GOD’s holiness:
                      - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                      - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                      I champion Our Free will:
                      - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                        No problems. Adam was made first, so he became the archetype of all humanity...
                        Sounds so good for such a blasphemy, eh? Trips right off the tongue....

                        Federal headship is a theological construct with absolutely NO scripture to attest to it, in response to the ill conceived claim we inherit Adam's sin made necessary by the rejection of our pre-human existence as the time of our choosing sin.

                        Federal headship is the foundation of the blasphemous construct that GOD created us sinners in Adam as IF light CAN create dark and a well of life giving water CAN give forth poisonous water...
                        I champion GOD’s holiness:
                        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                        - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                        I champion Our Free will:
                        - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                          God did not create Adam sinful. He DID, however, create him with a free will. And by his free will Adam disobeyed God's direct command.
                          This is exactly what I claim about HIS creation of everyone created in HIS image who is a sinner on earth!!!

                          IF this is a GOOD THING to do for Adam, why is it such a bad thing or impossible thing for HIM to do it for us?? Not only is there NO GOOD REASON for HIM to make us sinners in Adam, there is NO REASON at all, even a bad one!
                          I champion GOD’s holiness:
                          - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                          - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                          I champion Our Free will:
                          - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                            All theology is based upon personal interpretation of what is meant...
                            Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                            And your theology is not based upon personal interpretation of what is meant?
                            Of course it is. I wrote all theology did I not? But I do not choose an interpretation that has the GOD who is loving, righteous and just creating evil people for HIS pleasure...
                            I champion GOD’s holiness:
                            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                            - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                            I champion Our Free will:
                            - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                              Go ahead and tell me why, after HE had just proved HE could make people innocent, HE would then make everyone else in HIS Church Family evil in Adam's sin and NOT INNOCENT!??? I'll wait...
                              Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                              God made Adam sinless, innocent. It was Adam's choice that caused him to die spiritually (become separated from God).
                              We are past Adam's fall; we are now about how WE came to be sinners and the blasphemy that GOD needs to create us evil in Adam to (be able to?) redeem us before we can be a fit bride for HIM.
                              I champion GOD’s holiness:
                              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                              I champion Our Free will:
                              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                                So, you think God making mankind with a free will was "careless or cruel"?
                                I'll give you the benefit of the doubt in this one... Their free will was certainly NOT careless and cruel but what GOD set them up to experience in the garden if they were innocent certainly was. HE did not warn them that the cunning serpent was their enemy. HE did not interfere with the serpent acting like a mentor to Eve nor her willingness to follow HIM, not from a considered opinion about what was right or wrong but because she trusted him...which HE could have dissuaded her about. Leaving them to face all this without any more that a restriction not to eat is needlessly carless and cruel considering the consequences.

                                NO, HE gave them a law, laws which are given only to sinful law breakers and the rebellious to convict them of sin, 1 Tim 1:9 We realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious... because HE knew that sinning against that law would open their eyes to their sin, metaphorically called their nakedness, which they had before they ate.

                                Nothing else makes sense in light of HIS righteousness without any carelessness or cruelty...

                                Have you ever noticed that the word for NAKED is the same word used to describe the evl of the serpent as CUNNING above all others ? or is this the one place in Scripture that GOD was careless in HIS word choice? It certainly fits with 1 Tim 1:9!

                                My opinion is based upon the exegesis of these (and other verses); is your opinion you own or do you have an interpretation of these verses to deny my meaning?

                                Let us compare!!
                                I champion GOD’s holiness:
                                - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                                - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                                I champion Our Free will:
                                - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                                Comment

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