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Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
    Did you ever notice that the word Naked used of Adam and Eve is the same word as Subtle used to describe the evil of the serpent? The vowels that make it one or the other were not added until c600AD. Interesting eh? Meaningful or just GOD being careless with words?
    Originally posted by AlFin View Post
    Not according to the Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament.or Old Testament Word Studies. God isn't the one being careless with words. I would trust those who added the vowels knew more about how to do it than you do.
    Well now, an interesting thing to know is that the vowels that separate these words cunning and naked were not introduced into written Hebrew until the Massorites, ç60 AD and the fact that they rejected the vowel pointing that viewed Adam and Eve as sinful is meaningless as they were not spirit filled Christians in any way at all.

    Thus, the rabbis, those stalwarts of holiness, dictated to our church fathers what we are supposed to understand when we see a word with two meanings and we are not to question. To my mind, this just means that the created on earth bias against our pre-conception is as old as Moses. The word can be read either way - let's choose the one that makes GOD cruel and careless!!!



    I champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

    I champion Our Free will:
    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
      Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
      Crooked question.

      Assuming that "one man and one woman" is Adam and Eve (A&E), they didn't "ruin" anything.

      We know from 1 Peter 1:19-20 that Jesus was foreknown as the perfect sacrifice prior to the creation of the world. That means he was coming into the world, coming into what we call "history," coming to live, die, and be resurrected long before a single atom was created, before a single human was made, before a single human ever drew breath if his/her own, and before a single human ever disobeyed God (bringing sin and death into the world that God created after He foreknew His own son as the prefect, blemish-free sacrifice).

      We know that.

      We know from Genesis 1:31 and later by way of Romans 5:12 that A&E were made good and sinless. But we also know by way of 1 Corinthians 15:42 and 53 that God made humans corruptible. They were good and corruptible, not bad and corrupted.



      So let's look at the intersection of these two sets of scriptural truth. If A&E hadn't sinned would that mean Jesus would be the perfect sacrifice? Nope. If that were the case then Jesus could not be foreknown as such. That would also mean God's plan and purpose in Christ would necessarily be dependent upon sin, upon lawlessness.That would mean the righteous Law Maker would also have to be the Maker of Lawlessness because without said lawlessness there would be no need for Jesus to be a sacrifice and thereby no need for God to foreknow what He foreknew. Furthermore, if Jesus is the one for whom, by whom, through whom the creation was created and his purpose is solely dependent upon the existence of sin then he himself is dependent upon sin.

      And that is simply contradictory to the fact of a righteous God and a Son who knows no sin.



      So from this we understand 1 Peter 1:19-20 is true whether A&E ever sinned or not. God's purpose in His Son was not in any way shape or form remotely hindered or obstructed. Sin might be a nuisance, but it didn't ruin anything from God's perspective. His plan was gonna happen. Period. God is sovereign over sin and that fact is demonstrated by Jesus being foreknown as he was prior to the creation of the world.

      From the sinners perspective nothing is ruined because the sinner denies God and thinks sin is a myth, religious propaganda, or moralist drivel. It is only the redeemed who understands sin as separating him/her from God, and that sinner understands the condition was temporary.

      Nothing ruined for everyone.

      All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

      “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
        Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
        What genesis means by man and woman is not at all what we have here today, in the fallen polluted versions.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
          Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
          They didn't "ruin it for everyone", it was part of God's plan.

          Rom 11:30-32
          Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their [Israel's] disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
          Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

          Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by AlFin View Post
            They didn't "ruin it for everyone", it was part of God's plan. ... Rom 11:30-32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
            GOD's plan covers only that which HE put in motion to fulfill HIS purpose, our heavenly marriage. There is no necessity for evil to be in that plan to fulfill HIS purpose! (In fact, evil derails HIS plan and by forcing the postponement of the judgement, puts off the heavenly marriage.) And it is a blasphemy, a denigration of HIS attributes of being Loving, Righteous and Just to say HE did need evil to fulfill HIS plan. The fact that orthodoxy accepts this blasphemy doesn't make it correct doctrine.

            The fact that HE did proclaimed the saviour before the foundation of the world only means that HE knew the possibility of sin being created into HIS planned creation, NOT that HE planned evil as a part of HIS creation!

            To 'bind everyone to disobedience' is just another way of saying that every sinner is enslaved by sin* and it refers to the fact that only sinners are born on earth, NOT to the lie that every person (ie newly created therefore innocent) person is created as a sinner by being created in Adam's sin! Nor does the all of this verse imply that HIS mercy covers the sin of all sinful people because we know it does not but covers only the sins of believers who are not and never were condmened but not covering the sins of unbelief in those who have never believed in HIS Son, Jn 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

            * How is described in Rom 1:20+...as allowing them to repress / suppress the truth from their minds, ie culpable forgetting the truth, NOT by forcing them to be evil by their creation!
            I champion GOD’s holiness:
            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
            - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

            I champion Our Free will:
            - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

            Comment


            • #36
              John 1:29-30
              The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"

              Notice John did not say, "who takes away the sin of some of the people in the world."

              2 Cor 5:21
              God made him who had no sin to be sin* for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
              *or be a sin offering

              Rom 8:3
              For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.

              1 Peter 3:18
              For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit…

              Rev 13:8
              All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast — all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.

              Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

              Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                John 1:29-30
                The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'"

                Notice John did not say, "who takes away the sin of some of the people in the world."
                Why should HE? HE takes away the sins of the elect thru redemption and sanctification and then HE takes away the sins of the reprobate from this world by their banishment to the outer darkness! Where does it say HE only has one option for removing sin from this world?

                I champion GOD’s holiness:
                - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                I champion Our Free will:
                - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                  Why should HE? HE takes away the sins of the elect thru redemption and sanctification and then HE takes away the sins of the reprobate from this world by their banishment to the outer darkness! Where does it say HE only has one option for removing sin from this world?
                  Boy, you sure have a bizarre way of reading Scripture.
                  Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                  Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                    Boy, you sure have a bizarre way of reading Scripture.
                    ..also said the pharisee to the Christ.
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                      ..also said the pharisee to the Christ.
                      And so said Christ to the Pharisee.

                      I'll let you figure out which of the two was correct.
                      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                        Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
                        The option to not love God is a gift by God.
                        For example, nobody wants to be forced to have sex against their will.
                        That's rape.
                        - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                          Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
                          Slavery and rape are fun enough, but God prefers to let people choose to be in a relationship with him.
                          All consensual.
                          - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                            I contend that GOD WOULD NEVER make us evil by putting us into Adam's sin or sin nature or what ever evil name you want to give to us for becoming conceived and born as human!.
                            You make a great point. Humanity has something you feel has value.
                            That "thing" is why people have love for each other. It's a combination
                            of hormones and directed affection that we can control.

                            Without our ability to love, we are just robots and reproduction animals.

                            - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                              That answers the How, not the why thanks thou
                              There is no why if this is the HOW...two people did NOT wreck it for everyone, everyone wrecked their lives for themselves.

                              OR,
                              the why is the absolute necessity of our free will to be able to properly fulfill HIS purpose in our creation, that is, to be HIS Bride in all holiness wherein true love, true holiness and a real marriage can only arise from a free will.

                              But a free will that is restricted from not being able to reject HIS purpose, HIS love and HIS marriage proposal is not a free will at all.
                              I champion GOD’s holiness:
                              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                              I champion Our Free will:
                              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post
                                It was part of the Plan of redemption from before the creation. God did things the way He did, so as to prove His WISDOM in the way they'll all work out in the end. Simple as that.
                                Don't you believe in inherited, also falsely known as, original sin?

                                Why is a plan of redemption needed if all HE had to do was to NOT create HIS bride as disgustingly evil and corrupt by NOT making Her human in Adam??

                                You probably don't believe HE created Satan evil yet you willingly accept that the GOD who is love and is righteously just creates HIS Bride in abject evil by making Her human to inherit Adam's evil.

                                The mind boggles...
                                I champion GOD’s holiness:
                                - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                                - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                                I champion Our Free will:
                                - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                                Comment

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