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Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by AlFin View Post
    Your own quote of Romans 5:12 shows that sin entered the world through Adam and not Satan.
    Yes - but both Satan and Eve sinned before he did so the only way sin could have entered into the world with Adam was if he was a sinner when he was sown (Matt 13:36-39) into his new body of dust as the first person to be brought into the world.
    I champion GOD’s holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

    I champion Our Free will:
    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
      Yes - but both Satan and Eve sinned before he did so the only way sin could have entered into the world with Adam was if he was a sinner when he was sown (Matt 13:36-39) into his new body of dust as the first person to be brought into the world.
      Weird logic.
      Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

      Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by AlFin View Post
        Ezek 18:20 only states that the person who commits a sin is the only one responsible for the consequences. It does not mean that everybody else does not sin.
        Ezek18:20 contradicts the false doctrine that we can be made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin and death. We die only for our own sin even if we are still a foetus. Death proves sin but not Adam's, only our own.

        No one but you said it refers to everybody else not sinning....it does not.
        I champion GOD’s holiness:
        - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
        - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

        I champion Our Free will:
        - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
          Don't you believe in inherited, also falsely known as, original sin?
          ABSOLUTELY NOT. There's NO SUCH THING as "Inherited SIN"!!!!, I skillfully created MY OWN sin - as soon as I figured out how to.

          You probably don't believe HE created Satan evil
          OOh - you're a mind reader!! I DON'T believe that God created satan EVIL. that was something that satan did for himself. (iniquity = rebellion)

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
            Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
            Adam and Eve were not man and woman as you conceive of man and woman. The one who ruined anything was satan, who intentionally interfered with Eden.


            A clue to who is to most to blame is in the fact satan is not forgiven. Don't blame the originals of Eden. They are captives, as all we are because of the satanic realm.

            What do you think the current earth is? The world of death entered at the fall, a cosmological not merely psychological event.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

              ABSOLUTELY NOT. There's NO SUCH THING as "Inherited SIN"!!!!, I skillfully created MY OWN sin - as soon as I figured out how to.OOh - you're a mind reader!! I DON'T believe that God created satan EVIL. that was something that satan did for himself. (iniquity = rebellion)
              I had a niggle that you were different but could not remember. Glad I asked.

              But I know something is wrong. Did we inherit anything from Adam?
              I champion GOD’s holiness:
              - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
              - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

              I champion Our Free will:
              - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by AlFin View Post
                Weird logic.
                So, is it invisible, incredible or impossible? Those whose faith is strongly orthodox can't even imagine our pre-earth existence is in the bible without a teacher...
                I champion GOD’s holiness:
                - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                I champion Our Free will:
                - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by ttruscott View Post
                  I had a niggle that you were different but could not remember. Glad I asked.

                  But I know something is wrong. Did we inherit anything from Adam?
                  Nope - other than an Earth that was CURSED for his sake, so he had to WORK to survive. You are aware that Adam gave HIS delegated dominion to satan (who is now the "Prince of the power of the air", and "The god of this world" when he tossed God under the bus aren't you??

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                    Nope - other than an Earth that was CURSED for his sake, so he had to WORK to survive. You are aware that Adam gave HIS delegated dominion to satan (who is now the "Prince of the power of the air", and "The god of this world" when he tossed God under the bus aren't you??
                    Never thought about it nor am I interested in it much...it seems logical but I haven't worked with the logical implications yet. I don't recall any sect with this pov about Adam, are you in a named group? The PCE theology is widespread but has no actual sect that I'm aware of...

                    We've bumped noses before - Do you remember what that was over?
                    I champion GOD’s holiness:
                    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                    - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                    I champion Our Free will:
                    - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                      Never thought about it nor am I interested in it much...it seems logical but I haven't worked with the logical implications yet. I don't recall any sect with this pov about Adam, are you in a named group?
                      I'm a member in good standing of the Assemblies of God, but am not defined by them necessarily. since my tangle in the '70s with the CHarismatic outpouring (so called), I'm a free range Charismatic Non-Systematic somewhat Calvinistic-leaning Eclectic. I have no idea what "PCE" stands for.

                      We've bumped noses before - Do you remember what that was over?
                      I don't personally remember the occasion.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                        Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
                        Why no response to my op-reply?
                        All verses cited or quoted or in the NAS unless otherwise noted.

                        “if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” (2 Tim. 2:5)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ttruscott View Post

                          Ezek18:20 contradicts the false doctrine that we can be made sinners by inheriting Adam's sin and death. We die only for our own sin even if we are still a foetus. Death proves sin but not Adam's, only our own.

                          No one but you said it refers to everybody else not sinning....it does not.
                          1 Cor 15:21-22
                          21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


                          Rom 5:12-19
                          12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, [Adam] and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

                          15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

                          18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
                          NIV
                          Allen (Unless noted otherwise, Bible quotations are from the 1984 edition of the NIV)

                          Faith--Sees the invisible, believes the incredible, and receives the impossible.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by AlFin View Post

                            1 Cor 15:21-22
                            21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
                            Yes, we inherited his death, not his sin.

                            Rom 5:12-19
                            12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, [Adam] and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
                            because all sinned is not proof all sinned in Adam when it might mean because all men were already sinners.


                            15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
                            Yes, death reigned through the sin of one man but it came over all sinners who were born already sinful into the world...

                            18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
                            NIV
                            the many were made sinners has just as much weight to be read, many were shown to be sinners.
                            were made; Strong's G2525 - kathistēmi
                            1) to set, place, put
                            a) to set one over a thing (in charge of it)
                            b) to appoint one to administer an office
                            c) to set down as, constitute, to declare, show to be
                            d) to constitute, to render, make, cause to be
                            e) to conduct or bring to a certain place
                            f) to show or exhibit one's self

                            so verse 19 can read: 'the many were caused to be sinners:' OR 'the many were to shown to be or exhibited themselves as sinners:' the first of which supports your contention of original sin while the second of which supports my contention all men arrive into human bodies already sinners. I also contend that the first was chosen as the best interpretation due to the well established (by those paragons of Christian scholasticism, the rabbis), created on earth bias but if the bias were for a pre-earth creation, they would have chosen the second.
                            I champion GOD’s holiness:
                            - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
                            - Evil is creature-created by their free will.

                            I champion Our Free will:
                            - All were created with a free will able to chose for HIM or against HIM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                              Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
                              The free choice to choose God has it's holy benefits and the downside of Hell.
                              But God prefers voluntary companionship over slavery and chained servitude.
                              - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Daniel Marsh View Post
                                Why let one man and one woman ruin it for everyone?
                                "Adam" means "Man-kind".

                                - Do for others as you would want them to do for you: this is the foundation of the Law of Moses and of the teachings of the prophets. -

                                Comment

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