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  • Originally posted by TomL View Post
    the catching up of believers transpires after the resurrection of those that are Christ's...
    They precede us. We meet them in the air (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:13, 14, 16).

    "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
    Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

    Comment


    • Originally posted by serpentdove View Post
      They precede us. We meet them in the air (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:13, 14, 16).
      Yes and those that are Christ's are raised at the last day

      What can transpire after the last day but the eternal state ?
      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

        Tom notes

        So you are going by Irenaeus

        Lets then discuss Irenaeus

        His statement was

        "We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should
        be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen
        no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign."

        Issues revolve upon the greek word translated that and its anticedant

        It is a third person singular pronoun

        Was it the apocalypse or John that was seen

        Gentry writes

        Indisputably, the most serious potential objection to the common translation has to do with the understanding of &upcMq, “was seen. ”
        What is the subject of this verb? Is it “him who saw the Apocalypse (i.e., John) or “the Apocalypse”? Which of these two antecedents
        “was seen” “almost” in Irenaeus’s time and near “the end of the reign of Domitian”? Swete records for us a significant observation from
        master expositor F. J. A. Hort: “Dr. Hort, it appears, in his lectures on the Apocalypse referred to an article by M. J. Bovan in the Revue
        de Theologie et de Philosophti (Lausanne, 1887), in which it was sug�gested that the subject of&opa@ in Iren. v. 30.3 is not rj &IoKcLhxpzc
        but d njv &ioKciJvyw $opaK6ro<, i.e. d Tcobwq<.’”7 Such is all the more significant when we consider the observations of the first
        English translators of Irenaeus:

        The great work of Irenaeus, now for the first time translated into English, is unfortunately no longer extant in the original. It has come
        down to us only in an ancient Latin version, with the exception of the greater part of the first book, which has been preserved in the original
        Greek, through means of copious quotations made by Hippolytus and Epiphanies. The text, both Latin and Greek, is often most uncer�tain. . . .
        Irenaeus, even in the original Greek, is often a very obscure writer. At times he expresses himself with remarkable clearness and terseness;
        but, upon the whole, his style is very involved and prolix.


        Also cited by Gentry

        S. H. Chase, the writer of one of the most persuasive and compre�hensive articles on this matter, heard Hort’s May, 1889, lecture and
        recorded some of that very lecture: My note is as follows . . . : – ‘The passage of Irenaeus is urged against dating the Apocalypse shortly after Nero’s death. A suggestion,
        however, has been made in a French periodical: it is a question of the interpretation of Irenaeus. The writer raised the question whether
        Irenaeus means to say that the Apocalypse itself belongs to Domitian’s reign. What is the subject of .was seen ? He or it? For the latter note the
        phrase just used [i.e. T05 Kaz’ rr)v ChTOK&@JW ~opcrK6zo<]. But there is the fact that the language of Irenaeus is difiicult on this [i.e. the
        common] theory. Why yap? But if Irenaeus meant that he, John, was seen, this is in accordance with his favourite phraseology.’19
        For Hort, the ydp (“for”) in Irenaeus’s statement is syntactically difllcult to account for unless it makes reference back to the main idea
        of the preceding statement: “it [the name of the Beast] would have been spoken @ him.” Chase notes that Irenaeus is fond of yhp in such
        contexts, which lends support to the re-interpretation of Irenaeus at this point .20 Hort also recognizes the general tendency of Irenaeus
        to use dpckw with persons, rather than of visions or things (such as a book, as here, i.e. Revelation). For as Swete comments of Hort’s
        position: “he admitted ‘the difficulty of accounting for gar on the common interpretation, and the force of the argument from the use
        of dpbo.’”z’

        This sort of argumentation is why Wetstein, too, understood john” (which immediately preceding the verb becomes “him who
        saw the apocalypse”) to be the nominative of &Jpa6q, rather than “Revelation.”23 Macdonald agrees, and states the case dogmatically:
        [Irenaeus] argues that if this knowledge [i.e., regarding the identity of 666] had been important at that time it would have been communi�cated by the writer of the Apocalypse, who lived so near their own time. . . . There was therefore really no ambiguity to be avoided, requiring him to use the name ofJohn or the personal pronoun as the subject of "was seen"", the verb of sight. The scope requires this nomina�tive and no other.

        Contrary to Irenaeus

        Tertullian placed John’s banishment after his being dipped in a cauldron of burning oil, which Jerome says was in Nero’s reign.37
        Photus preserved extracts of “Life of Timotheus” in which he states that John’s banishment was under Nero. Others who record a pre�Domitianic date for John’s banishment include: Epiphanies (Heresies 51:12, 33), Arethas (Revelation 7:1-8), the Syriac versions of Revela�tion, Hi.rto~ ofJohn, th Son of Zebedee, and Theophylact (John)

        As for Irenaeus relationship with Polycarp

        Irenaeus highly cherished the memory of Polycarp, as he mentions in his letter to Florinus:

        For I saw thee when I was yet a child [mrfg .&n &v], in Lower Asia with Polycarp, and thou wert in stately position in the royal palace
        and studying to approve thee to him. For I recall rather what hap�pened then than what are more recent (for what we learnt from our
        very childhood grow on us with our soul and are a part of it) so that I can even tell the place where the blessed Polycarp and I conversed

        but Irenaues wrote against heresies as much as 75 years later p62 before Jerusalem fell


        Bottom line there are various opinions on this matter and no sure source such as the bible to confirm
        Yes indeed the Apostle John saw a VISION of that still future Great-Trib. and he told Polycarp about it, who told Irenaeus and that John saw that vision near the end of Domitian's reign ( 95 AD )! Then John wrote the BOR in 95 AD ( when he was EXILED on the Isle of Patmos ), which tells of that future Great-Trib.! Thus the Preterists view of the Great-Trib. happening in 67-70 AD is refuted! Even if that does not refute it, History of WWI & WWII Clearly refutes it because God says in Matt.24:21 that NOTHING in the history of the World will ever EQUAL ( or Beat ) the Great Trib.! Thus 67-70 AD could NOT have been the Great-Trib. ( Jer.30:7 ; Dan.12:1 & Matt.24:21 )! Case closed on Preterism ( and that view is NOT allowed on this forum!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
          Yes indeed the Apostle John saw a VISION of that still future Great-Trib. and he told Polycarp about it, who told Irenaeus and that John saw that vision near the end of Domitian's reign ( 95 AD )! Then John wrote the BOR in 95 AD ( when he was EXILED on the Isle of Patmos ), which tells of that future Great-Trib.! Thus the Preterists view of the Great-Trib. happening in 67-70 AD is refuted! Even if that does not refute it, History of WWI & WWII Clearly refutes it because God says in Matt.24:21 that NOTHING in the history of the World will ever EQUAL ( or Beat ) the Great Trib.! Thus 67-70 AD could NOT have been the Great-Trib. ( Jer.30:7 ; Dan.12:1 & Matt.24:21 )! Case closed on Preterism ( and that view is NOT allowed on this forum!
          Tom notes

          you addressed nothing of what I posted and just repeated your view.

          And for the record I am not a preterist

          BTW you never addressed this biblical argument either

          I see no mention of a pre-trib rapture here

          1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
          23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
          24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
          25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
          26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
          27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
          28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
          .............................
          50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
          51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
          54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

          and not even a pretrib rapture here

          1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
          16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
          17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

          which refers to Christ raising those that are his at his advent on the last day (the resurrection is at the last day)

          Especially address this if you want to be taken seriously

          Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
          Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
          Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
          Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
          Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
          Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

          Now all these verses would be false were Christ to raise those that are his at a time before the last day

          Finally what should we believe the last day to be but the end of the temporal world and the beginning of the eternal state




          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

            Tom notes

            you addressed nothing of what I posted and just repeated your view.

            And for the record I am not a preterist

            BTW you never addressed this biblical argument either

            I see no mention of a pre-trib rapture here

            1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
            23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
            24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
            25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
            26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
            27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
            28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
            .............................
            50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
            51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
            52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
            53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
            54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

            and not even a pretrib rapture here

            1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
            16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
            17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

            which refers to Christ raising those that are his at his advent on the last day (the resurrection is at the last day)

            Especially address this if you want to be taken seriously

            Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
            Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
            Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
            Joh 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
            Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

            Now all these verses would be false were Christ to raise those that are his at a time before the last day

            Finally what should we believe the last day to be but the end of the temporal world and the beginning of the eternal state



            If you say that the Great Trib. happened in 67-70 AD then you are a Preterist. But if you agree with my correct view, that the Great Trib. ( Armageddon - Rev.16:16 or WWIII with nukes ) is still future then you are RIGHT and NOT a Preterist! So to get the record correct on CARM, do you believe that the Great Trib. ( Jer.30:7 ; Dan.12:1 & Matt.24:21 ) happened in 67-70 AD ( as Preterist believe, or is it still future ( as I Believe )? Oce we get your answer on record to this post, then I can answer your questions correctly here. So let me know if you believe or do not believe that the Great Trib. happened in the first century AD and then I will answer your post here, by using scriptures that back up my view!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
              If you say that the Great Trib. happened in 67-70 AD then you are a Preterist. But if you agree with my correct view, that the Great Trib. ( Armageddon - Rev.16:16 or WWIII with nukes ) is still future then you are RIGHT and NOT a Preterist! So to get the record correct on CARM, do you believe that the Great Trib. ( Jer.30:7 ; Dan.12:1 & Matt.24:21 ) happened in 67-70 AD ( as Preterist believe, or is it still future ( as I Believe )? Oce we get your answer on record to this post, then I can answer your questions correctly here. So let me know if you believe or do not believe that the Great Trib. happened in the first century AD and then I will answer your post here, by using scriptures that back up my view!
              Tom replies

              First I had not stated the great tribulation happened in 70 ad

              But even that does not make one a preterist. All that would mean is one has a preterist interpretation of a portion of the book of revelation

              One can have that position and be an amillennialist or postmillennialist

              Those who call themselves preterist usually mean they are full or what they call consistant preterist

              These believe even the resurrection has already transpired. That is not my position

              For this view see Russell's The Parousia

              Instead of attempting to poison the well with misleading labels why not actually address the arguments

              Anyone can make a dogmatic statement but not everyone is capable of defending their view in a biblical argument
              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

              Comment


              • Originally posted by serpentdove View Post
                They precede us. We meet them in the air (1 Cor. 15:52; 1 Thess. 4:13, 14, 16).
                Serpent dove, do you mean to suggest that these verses should be interpreted literally? Why these and not others?

                Luke 3:11 says, "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same." Do you own two shirts? Why have you not given the second away?

                100% literal interpretation of 100% of the Bible creates fragile, dogmatic theology and prevents dialogue with the text. Did God create us as robots or humans?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by halotop View Post

                  Serpent dove, do you mean to suggest that these verses should be interpreted literally? Why these and not others?

                  Luke 3:11 says, "Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same." Do you own two shirts? Why have you not given the second away?

                  100% literal interpretation of 100% of the Bible creates fragile, dogmatic theology and prevents dialogue with the text. Did God create us as robots or humans?
                  Agreed everything cannot be interpreted literally yet one must have a reason for not interpreting a passage in a non literal manner so

                  Why don't you share your interpretation and your warrant for not interpreting that particular passage literally ?
                  Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by halotop View Post

                    Serpent dove, do you mean to suggest that these verses should be interpreted literally?...100% literal interpretation of 100% of the Bible creates fragile, dogmatic theology and prevents dialogue with the text.
                    You mean God doesn't have feathers? Ps 61:4. Thank you ever so.
                    "Being a square keeps you from going around in circles." ~ J. Vernon McGee
                    Ro 3:23, 5:8, 6:23, 10:9, 10:13

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by serpentdove View Post
                      [Song of Solomon Contains An Amazing Reference To The Pretribulation Rapture As Being In Springtime by Geoffrey Grider | Now The End Begins] “Song of Solomon chapter 2 contains an amazing Springtime picture of the Pretribulation Rapture of the Church of Jesus Christ

                      “My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.” Song Of Solomon 2:10-13 (KJV)

                      Today is the first official day of Spring, and signs of new life are popping up all over the place today it would seem. The Bible has a lot to say about times and seasons, and in the Old Testament is hidden an amazing nugget related to the soon-coming Pretribulation Rapture of the Church…” Full text: Song Of Solomon Contains An Amazing Reference To The Pretribulation Rapture As Being In Springtime Lk 21:28


                      Seems rather esoteric to me
                      Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                        Tom replies

                        First I had not stated the great tribulation happened in 70 ad

                        But even that does not make one a preterist. All that would mean is one has a preterist interpretation of a portion of the book of revelation

                        One can have that position and be an amillennialist or postmillennialist

                        Those who call themselves preterist usually mean they are full or what they call consistant preterist

                        These believe even the resurrection has already transpired. That is not my position

                        For this view see Russell's The Parousia

                        Instead of attempting to poison the well with misleading labels why not actually address the arguments

                        Anyone can make a dogmatic statement but not everyone is capable of defending their view in a biblical argument
                        FYI, I am on RECORD on CARM as correctly stating with scriptures that the Great-Trib. is still future as of Today and that the MOL ( AC ) in 2 Thess.2:7-8 can NOT REVEAL himself to get the 7 yr. Trib. started ( Dan.9:27 ), till those of 1 Thess.4:17 ( that the H.S. dwells in as per 1 Cor.6:19 ) get TAKEN Via the Caught Up ( Rapture )! Then the MOL can confirm the covenant ( Peace Treaty ) as he is REVEALING himself to the WORLD in doing just that! Thus like I correctly posted before, Luke 21:36 is talking about that escape of the one new man of Ephesians ( The body & Bride of Christ )! God that Father brings His Wife ( the Jews of Judaism ) back to Him ( So all of Israel shall be Saved ) by giving them an escape opportunity ( in Matt.24:15-16 ) during the START of the Great Trib., in the Middle of Daniel's 70 seven ( leaving 3.5 years till Christ return, upon which those of 1 Thess.4:17 will Follow Him as per Rev.19:14 ) ! So yes indeed the Caught Up ( Rapture ) will happen Pre-Trib., for those of 1 Thess.4:17 to be in Heaven standing before the Son of Man ( Luke 21:36 - escaping all those things that happen in Daniel's 70th seven - which is a time of Trouble for Jacob or Israel as per Jer.30:7 and not for the one New man of Ephesians or the True Church/Christ's Bride ), getting ready for His wedding ( Rev.19:7-8 ) in that Fine Linen that they receive as a reward at His BEMA seat ( 2 Cor.5:10 in conjunction with 1 Cor.3:11-15 )!

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
                          FYI, I am on RECORD on CARM as correctly stating with scriptures that the Great-Trib. is still future as of Today and that the MOL ( AC ) in 2 Thess.2:7-8 can NOT REVEAL himself to get the 7 yr. Trib. started ( Dan.9:27 ), till those of 1 Thess.4:17 ( that the H.S. dwells in as per 1 Cor.6:19 ) get TAKEN Via the Caught Up ( Rapture )! Then the MOL can confirm the covenant ( Peace Treaty ) as he is REVEALING himself to the WORLD in doing just that! Thus like I correctly posted before, Luke 21:36 is talking about that escape of the one new man of Ephesians ( The body & Bride of Christ )! God that Father brings His Wife ( the Jews of Judaism ) back to Him ( So all of Israel shall be Saved ) by giving them an escape opportunity ( in Matt.24:15-16 ) during the START of the Great Trib., in the Middle of Daniel's 70 seven ( leaving 3.5 years till Christ return, upon which those of 1 Thess.4:17 will Follow Him as per Rev.19:14 ) ! So yes indeed the Caught Up ( Rapture ) will happen Pre-Trib., for those of 1 Thess.4:17 to be in Heaven standing before the Son of Man ( Luke 21:36 - escaping all those things that happen in Daniel's 70th seven - which is a time of Trouble for Jacob or Israel as per Jer.30:7 and not for the one New man of Ephesians or the True Church/Christ's Bride ), getting ready for His wedding ( Rev.19:7-8 ) in that Fine Linen that they receive as a reward at His BEMA seat ( 2 Cor.5:10 in conjunction with 1 Cor.3:11-15 )!
                          Ok I am on record that there will be no earthly millennium after Christs advent; that the rapture happens after the dead in Christ are raised when Christ returns. I am further on record as stating Christ is presently sitting on his throne in his kingdom as per scripture

                          Acts 2:29 Men and brethen let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                          30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                          31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
                          32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                          33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
                          34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                          35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                          36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

                          1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

                          Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

                          Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                          Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                          Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                          Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

                          Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
                          Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
                          Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


                          Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

                          Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:



                          1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
                          24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                          25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                          26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


                          Christ you see reigns up to the point death is defeated - that would be when he raises those that are his compare with

                          1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
                          51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                          52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                          53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                          54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
                          55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

                          then as per 1Co 15:24 the end has arrived.

                          That would also be the last day

                          Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


                          Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                            Ok I am on record that there will be no earthly millennium after Christs advent; that the rapture happens after the dead in Christ are raised when Christ returns. I am further on record as stating Christ is presently sitting on his throne in his kingdom as per scripture

                            Acts 2:29 Men and brethen let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                            30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                            31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
                            32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                            33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
                            34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                            35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                            36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

                            1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

                            Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

                            Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                            Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                            Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                            Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

                            Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
                            Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
                            Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


                            Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

                            Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:



                            1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
                            24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                            25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                            26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


                            Christ you see reigns up to the point death is defeated - that would be when he raises those that are his compare with

                            1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
                            51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                            52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                            53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                            54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
                            55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

                            then as per 1Co 15:24 the end has arrived.

                            That would also be the last day

                            Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

                            WRONG, Jesus is currently seated at His Father's right hand side on God's Throne in Heaven and NOT seated ( Acts 2:29-32 ) on king David's earthly throne on earth in Jerusalem for this TEMPORARY 1000 year REIGN as per Isaiah 24:23 in conjunction with Rev.20:4-6! So you are in FACT wrong to say that He is RIGHT Now seated on King David's throne in Jerusalem! Case closed because He right now is on God's Throne in Heaven ( seated at His Father's right hand side, till His Father ( Matt.24:36 ) tells Him to go Fetch His Bride ( 1 Thess.4:14-17 ) like a thief in the night! FYI, that fetching happens in the clouds in the air ( earth's atmosphere ) and is NOT His Post-Trib. return to the surface of the earth in Jerusalem ( which are NOT those clouds in the air )! So there is a Total difference in His Pre-Trib. fetching His Bride ( 1 Thess.4:14-17 ) in the clouds in the air - where the dead rise first ( 1 Thess.4:16 ), and His Post-Trib. ( Matt.24:29 ) return to Jerusalem to rebuild & REIGN in Jerusalem on planet earth as per Acts 15:16 & Rev.20:4-6 in conjunction with Isaiah 24:23!
                            Last edited by Rod.ney; 08-12-17, 05:47 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rod.ney View Post
                              WRONG, Jesus is currently seated at His Father's right hand side on God's Throne in Heaven and NOT seated ( Acts 2:29-32 ) on king David's earthly throne on earth in Jerusalem for this TEMPORARY 1000 year REIGN as per Isaiah 24:23 in conjunction with Rev.20:4-6! So you are in FACT wrong to say that He is RIGHT Now seated on King David's throne in Jerusalem! Case closed because He right now is on God's Throne in Heaven ( seated at His Father's right hand side, till His Father ( Matt.24:36 ) tells Him to go Fetch His Bride ( 1 Thess.4:14-17 ) like a thief in the night! FYI, that fetching happens in the clouds in the air ( earth's atmosphere ) and is NOT His Post-Trib. return to the surface of the earth in Jerusalem ( which are NOT those clouds in the air )! So there is a Total difference in His Pre-Trib. fetching His Bride ( 1 Thess.4:14-17 ) in the clouds in the air - where the dead rise first ( 1 Thess.4:16 ), and His Post-Trib. ( Matt.24:29 ) return to Jerusalem to rebuild & REIGN in Jerusalem on planet earth as per Acts 15:16 & Rev.20:4-6 in conjunction with Isaiah 24:23!
                              Sorry Rodney

                              All you do is post your view while ignoring the post you supposedly are replying to and you do this repeatedly

                              I just showed why there can be no earthly reign for Christ after his advent and you addressed nothing

                              Go back and deal with what I posted regarding 1Cor 15


                              Ok I am on record that there will be no earthly millennium after Christs advent; that the rapture happens after the dead in Christ are raised when Christ returns. I am further on record as stating Christ is presently sitting on his throne in his kingdom as per scripture

                              Acts 2:29 Men and brethen let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                              30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                              31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
                              32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                              33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
                              34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                              35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                              36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

                              1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

                              Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

                              Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                              Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                              Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                              Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

                              Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
                              Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
                              Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


                              Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

                              Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:



                              1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
                              24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                              25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                              26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


                              Christ you see reigns up to the point death is defeated - that would be when he raises those that are his compare with

                              1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
                              51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                              52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                              53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                              54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
                              55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

                              then as per 1Co 15:24 the end has arrived.

                              That would also be the last day

                              Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
                              Let God's word speak and everyman be silent

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by TomL View Post

                                Sorry Rodney

                                All you do is post your view while ignoring the post you supposedly are replying to and you do this repeatedly

                                I just showed why there can be no earthly reign for Christ after his advent and you addressed nothing

                                Go back and deal with what I posted regarding 1Cor 15


                                Ok I am on record that there will be no earthly millennium after Christs advent; that the rapture happens after the dead in Christ are raised when Christ returns. I am further on record as stating Christ is presently sitting on his throne in his kingdom as per scripture

                                Acts 2:29 Men and brethen let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
                                30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
                                31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
                                32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
                                33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
                                34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
                                35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
                                36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

                                1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

                                Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

                                Ro 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                                Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
                                Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
                                Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

                                Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
                                Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
                                Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,


                                Lu 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

                                Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:



                                1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
                                24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
                                25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
                                26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


                                Christ you see reigns up to the point death is defeated - that would be when he raises those that are his compare with

                                1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
                                51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
                                52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                                54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
                                55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

                                then as per 1Co 15:24 the end has arrived.

                                That would also be the last day

                                Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
                                Great Post Of Truth!

                                Yes Your Correct, Ive Been Posting With Rod For Years, No Dialogue In My Opinion, The Ole Hit And Run Massve Copy And Paste.

                                Your 100% Correct, Good Post!

                                They Teach Matthew 25:31-46 Sheep/Goats Is Jesus Christ Sitting On A Earthly Throne Judging This Physical Earthly Human World, After This Judgement A Earthly Physical Mortal 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom BEgins, As Jesus Christ Sits Upon A Throne In Jerusalem, While Mortal Humans Live And Die?

                                Matthew 25:46 Clearly States This Is The Eternal Final Great White Throne Judgement, The Wicked Are Judged To "Eternal Punishment" While The Righteous Enter "Eternal Life" Simple.

                                I Have Posted This Exact Truth Several Times Throughout The Years, They Have No Answer, As They Continue To Teach Falsehoods In Dispensationalism.

                                Matthew 25:46 KJV
                                46
                                And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

                                2 Peter 2:1KJV
                                But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

                                As You Have Clearly Pointed Out, As I Have Posted This Several Times Also, 1 Cor 15:23, "Then Cometh The End" An 1 Cor 15:54 "Death Is Swalowed Up In Victory"?

                                The Falsely Teach Tht 1 Cor 15:52-54 Is A Secret Rapture, Then There Will Be A Seven Year Tribulation To Follow, Then A 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom After That, In The 1007 Year Period, This Time Will Contain Mortal Humans, That Will Be Born, Live, And Die Physical Death?

                                A 100% False Teaching, Because Death Is Swallowed Up, Eternity Has Started, As Clearly Shown In Scripture.


                                1 Corinthians 15:22-24 & 52-54KJV
                                22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
                                23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
                                24 Then cometh the end,
                                when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

                                52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
                                53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
                                54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

                                Dispensationalism Falsely Teaches Jesus Christ Will Return To This Earth In A Physical Body, And Take A Physical Throne In Jerusalem, Starting A 1000 Year Millennial Kingdom, As Physical Mortal Humans Are Present?

                                Matthew 24:23-27, Jesus Christ Warned The Believer Against This "False Teaching" As He Taught He Would Not Be Present On Earth In A Physical Body, "Believe It Not"!

                                Matthew 24:23-27KJV
                                23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
                                24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
                                25 Behold, I have told you before.
                                26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
                                27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

                                Jesus Christ Is The Lord!

                                Truth7t7

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