Announcement

Collapse

Message to all users:

https://carm.org/forum-rules

Super Member Subscription
https://carm.org/carm-super-members-banner-ad-signup

As most of you are aware, we had a crash to forums and were down for over two days a while back. We did have to do an upgrade to the vbulletin software to fix the forums and that has created changes, VB no longer provide the hybrid or threaded forums. There are some issues/changes to the forums we are not able to fix or change. Also note the link address change, please let friends and posters know of the changed link to the forums. For now this is the only link available, https://forums.carm.org/vb5/ but if clicking on forum on carm.org homepage it will now send you to this link. (edited to add https: now working.

Again, we are working through some of the posting and viewing issues to learn how to post with the changes, you will have to check and test the different features, icons that have changed. You may also want to go to profile settings,since many of the notifications, information in profile, also to update/edit your avatar by clicking on avatar space, pull down arrow next to login for user settings.

Edit to add "How to read forums, to make it easier."
Pull down arrow next to login name upper right select profile, or user settings when page opens to profile,select link in tab that says Account. Then select/choose options, go down to Conversation Detail Options, Select Display mode Posts, NOT Activity, that selection of Posts will make the pages of discussions go to last post on last page rather than out of order that happens if you choose activity threads. Then be sure to go to bottom and select SAVE Changes in your profile options. You can then follow discussions by going through the pages, to the last page having latest responses. Then click on the other links Privacy, Notifications, to select viewing options,the forums get easier if you open all the tabs or links in your profile, user settings and select options. To join Super Member, pull down arrow next to login name, select User Settings and then click on tab/link at top that says Subscriptions.

Thank you for your patience and God Bless.

Diane S
https://carm.org/forum-rules
See more
See less

Dispensationalist? Do you believe this?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Originally posted by Nola369 View Post

    John Hagee is a clown and only clowns like you follow that tool of the devil.
    That is OK, you have admitted that you have never made a comment that you can prove as factual.
    Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

    When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

    I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      Did Hagee deny that Jesus claimed to be the Christ or, did he say that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah the first advent?
      Either one is wrong to assert in my opinion.... As I understand it, one could say that the Kingdom offer was contingent on Israel accepting Jesus as the Messiah, but it'd be wrong to say that Jesus didn't come with a real offer of the Kingdom (ie. the offer of the Kingdom had to be a real offer in order for it to be contingent). If the offer of the Kingdom was real, then Jesus came to be the Messiah.

      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      Did the Jews expect the Messiah would come as their King and to restore Israel back to its prominence? So, did Jesus come as their Messiah or, did He come as the Lamb to save the world?
      Yes and yes....

      I'm sure my answer above could be exasperating... or maybe easily brushed aside. But I do think that within your two questions above there lies in important distinction. Namely, how people like Hagee interpret Israel coming back to prominence. I've had some experience speaking with people who follow teachers such as Hagee, but I'm fairly non-assuming, so it's my style to try to steer people to where I think they should focus rather than to try to explain what I think they teach. Here, I think we should be speaking about the Mosaic Law... My answer of "yes & yes" is tied to it, and I should think yours (and what I've experienced with people who claim Hagee) would be too.

      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      Did the Jewish people as a whole reject Jesus or was it the leadership that instigated a riot with some?
      Maybe that would depend on when the expounder believed the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah happened.... I think, there's clear evidence of Jesus rescinding the Kingdom offer, and therefore it's a moot point of whether or not the Jewish people as a whole rejected Him.

      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      How many thousands accepted Him as their Savior? Why were the leadership concerned that the populance would cause trouble if they knew what they were contemplating?
      Both good questions I suppose, but I can't see where there as relevant as the two yes and yes questions I answered above. I do think that your second question here regarding the populace and trouble is interesting, since I think that the Sanhedrin had interest in the status quo of the Temple and the Law. But really, that just again highlights where I think our discussion goes.

      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      I am about as fundimental, penticostal and conservative in my theology as one can get and have listened to Hagee for years and in my opinion he interpets scripture literally as any pastor that I have heard or read.
      I have a hard time referring to what Pentecostals normally believe regarding eschatology as dispensational. I know it's normally pre-millennial (in my experience), but I'm not convinced it's dispensational. Just my opinion...


      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
      Hagee is pro Israel, pro Jesus Christ, pro scripture as it is written and to make judgement of him using a clip of a few seconds is unfair in my opinion.
      I understand what you're saying... But if I could explain to you why I posted, it would be to instigate a response from you so that I could see whether or not some of the things I've learned from pro-Hagee posters is consistent with how you would defend your conclusions. I go to a SBC, and I've met people in bible studies that reference Hagee. Normally the people I meet at church aren't as well versed as the people I meet online, since I've encountered other Hagee supporters in mediums such as this. But really, I don't know enough (in my opinion), which is why I responded.

      Any way... yeah, I'm kinda weird.

      God bless, look forward to your thoughts (although I'm highly inconsistent in my replies)
      Dave
      Let not conscience make you linger
      Nor of fitness fondly dream
      All the fitness He requires
      Is to feel your need of Him

      Comment


      • #18
        How refreshing to get a response where all questions are answered, each point is addressed and in a format where there is no confusion as to what the person is addressing, thank you. Hope you do not mind if I break my responses into smaller segments.

        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
        Did Hagee deny that Jesus claimed to be the Christ or, did he say that Jesus did not come to earth to be the Messiah the first advent?
        Originally posted by Dave View Post
        Either one is wrong to assert in my opinion.... As I understand it, one could say that the Kingdom offer was contingent on Israel accepting Jesus as the Messiah, but it'd be wrong to say that Jesus didn't come with a real offer of the Kingdom (ie. the offer of the Kingdom had to be a real offer in order for it to be contingent). If the offer of the Kingdom was real, then Jesus came to be the Messiah.
        1) I have never heard him say anything that would lead me to conclude that he was denying that Jesus claimed to be the Christ. If he did that, it would render his doctrines completely wrong.

        1a) I agree, with your view that it was contingent upon Israel accepting Jesus as the Messiah which the leadership and the nation as a whole did not accept.

        1b) I have often wondered how things would have been had they accepted Him as their Messiah. Would there have been ceremonies and rituals as in the OT where they looked forward to the coming of the Savior but then after His coming it would be mostly the same but would look back at what Jesus had done.

        1c) IOWs, like it may be during the millennium, at least as I see it. Gentiles will be required to worship like the Jews in the millennium just like they had to do during the OT.

        2) Yes, technically, He did come to be the Messiah but did He end up being the Messiah or the lamb? I would like to be able to ask Hagee to expound on his statement.

        3) You probably know this already but just for the record.

        Χριστόςb, οῦ m: (the Greek translation of the Hebrew and Aramaic word ‘Messiah’) a proper name for Jesus—‘Christ’ (Mt 27:17)

        3a) and the Hebrew.

        מָשִׁיחַ mâshîyach, maw-shee´-akh; from 4886; anointed; usually a consecrated person (as a king, priest, or saint); spec. the Messiah:—anointed, Messiah.

        4) So I guess my question would be, what did Jesus come to earth to be, the King of Israel or the Savior of the world.

        5) Will continue responding to comments later.
        Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

        When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

        I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by HENOG View Post
          Not-the-less, please tell me if you agree with this:
          Sounds Squirrely to me, don'cha know. Could be Hagee is just being "Sensational" to sell books. OR it could be that he's gone off the Deep end - minister do, you know.

          What do you think it has to do with "Dispensationalism"??

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

            Sounds Squirrely to me, don'cha know. Could be Hagee is just being "Sensational" to sell books. OR it could be that he's gone off the Deep end - minister do, you know.

            What do you think it has to do with "Dispensationalism"??
            I think it has everything to do with Dispensationalism, but you are right to put it in quotations-marks because I think that many people who hold to "dispensationalism" do not see it as a system of thought only about 150 years old, they think it's orthodox Bible reading. Also for myself, dispensationalism was the only eschatological "understanding" of the Bible I heard for the first 17 years of my life.

            I think if you ask John Hagee wether he is a dispensationalist, he'll say: "I'm a Bible believing christian."

            The Wikipedia article on Dispensationalism mentions Hagee under United States Politics:

            Israel has allied with U.S. evangelicals and dispensationalists to influence U.S. foreign policy, including protection of the Jewish people in Israel and continued aid for the state of Israel. Israel's alliance with televangelist John Hagee began in the early 1980s as he met with every Prime Minister of Israel since Menachem Begin. Since the mid-2000s Israel has been in commercial alliance with televangelist and sometimes-politician Pat Robertson, and in 2005 Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "I mean that we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson."

            Of course the books used to reference this, you'll find there.

            I think you hit the nail on the head when saying "Hagee is just being 'sensational' to sell books." My concern is however with my christian brothers and sisters who buy and believe those books. This reminds me of what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:

            Those who want to be rich, however, fall into temptation and become ensnared by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. By craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
              Did the Jews expect the Messiah would come as their King and to restore Israel back to its prominence? So, did Jesus come as their Messiah or, did He come as the Lamb to save the world?
              Originally posted by Dave View Post
              Yes and yes....

              I'm sure my answer above could be exasperating... or maybe easily brushed aside.
              1) Not at all, I agree that the Jews did expect the Messiah to be their King. I also agree that He was the Lamb that offered salvation to the world.

              1a) Lamb appears 40 times in the NT, Messiah appears 6 times, one of which is John 1:41

              We have found the Messiah” (which translated means Christ).

              Originally posted by Dave View Post
              But I do think that within your two questions above there lies in important distinction. Namely, how people like Hagee interpret Israel coming back to prominence.
              2) That suggests to me that you do not take Ezekiel 36-48 literally, am I wrong? Is it your belief that the Jewish people are no longer God’s chosen and will not have prominence in the millennium?

              3) What is your view of Hagee’s interpretation of Israel coming back into prominence?

              Originally posted by Dave View Post
              I've had some experience speaking with people who follow teachers such as Hagee, but I'm fairly non-assuming, so it's my style to try to steer people to where I think they should focus rather than to try to explain what I think they teach. Here, I think we should be speaking about the Mosaic Law... My answer of "yes & yes" is tied to it, and I should think yours (and what I've experienced with people who claim Hagee) would be too.
              3) Sorry, I am confused as to what your point is, can you be a little more specific?

              Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

              When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

              I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by HENOG View Post

                I think it has everything to do with Dispensationalism, but you are right to put it in quotations-marks because I think that many people who hold to "dispensationalism" do not see it as a system of thought only about 150 years old, they think it's orthodox Bible reading. Also for myself, dispensationalism was the only eschatological "understanding" of the Bible I heard for the first 17 years of my life.

                I think if you ask John Hagee wether he is a dispensationalist, he'll say: "I'm a Bible believing christian."

                The Wikipedia article on Dispensationalism mentions Hagee under United States Politics:

                Israel has allied with U.S. evangelicals and dispensationalists to influence U.S. foreign policy, including protection of the Jewish people in Israel and continued aid for the state of Israel. Israel's alliance with televangelist John Hagee began in the early 1980s as he met with every Prime Minister of Israel since Menachem Begin. Since the mid-2000s Israel has been in commercial alliance with televangelist and sometimes-politician Pat Robertson, and in 2005 Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said, "I mean that we have no greater friend in the whole world than Pat Robertson."

                Of course the books used to reference this, you'll find there.

                I think you hit the nail on the head when saying "Hagee is just being 'sensational' to sell books." My concern is however with my christian brothers and sisters who buy and believe those books. This reminds me of what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:

                Those who want to be rich, however, fall into temptation and become ensnared by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. By craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness.
                Most of us Full Gospel folks ARE "Dispensationalists" since that's what the Bible presents as God's methodology of dealing with His humans. He dealt with us in a collection of different ways at different TIMES, to illustrate TO US that we in and of ourselves are Hoplessly Evil, at ENMITY with Him, and in need of a Savior.

                That's so there's ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that we can protest to God: "If only you'd have done it THIS WAY, we would have been O.K."

                The OLD Testament is a continuous human TRAGEDY, where humans corrupt EVERY system that God puts into place, Reject His council, and miserably fail EVERY test. Just from reading the BIBLE, I was a "Dispensationalist" before I even knew there WAS such a thing.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bob Carabbio View Post

                  Most of us Full Gospel folks ARE "Dispensationalists" since that's what the Bible presents as God's methodology of dealing with His humans. He dealt with us in a collection of different ways at different TIMES, to illustrate TO US that we in and of ourselves are Hoplessly Evil, at ENMITY with Him, and in need of a Savior.

                  That's so there's ABSOLUTELY NO WAY that we can protest to God: "If only you'd have done it THIS WAY, we would have been O.K."

                  The OLD Testament is a continuous human TRAGEDY, where humans corrupt EVERY system that God puts into place, Reject His council, and miserably fail EVERY test. Just from reading the BIBLE, I was a "Dispensationalist" before I even knew there WAS such a thing.
                  Amen brother!! Some folks seem to think we are dispensationalists because someone told us so...well, i suppose someone did...God's word.
                  Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

                  When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

                  I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post

                    Amen brother!! Some folks seem to think we are dispensationalists because someone told us so...well, i suppose someone did...God's word.
                    I completely Agree.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Good morning Tevens,

                      I appreciated your compliment in acknowledging that I tried to address all of your question. However, with this response, after reading both of your replies, I'm trying to answer more strategically as to exchange the most information the most efficiently. I will certainly remember, back track, or reference the questions un-answered as I go or if you point me to it as you see relevance.

                      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                      3) What is your view of Hagee’s interpretation of Israel coming back into prominence?
                      I felt like this was the easiest place to start... because it helps to leap into my view of Ezekiel (which I think the Millennial Temple, it's rites and rituals. would be the subject).

                      What I learned (and what I was prodding to see if you would confirm) from a small handful of people who referenced Hagee (and others...) as sources, is that Israel would come back to prominence during the tribulation period by way of their obedience to the Mosaic Law (Most of the discussion revolved around Deut. 30:1-10 in defense of that assertion). In other words, Jesus will return as Messiah when the hearts and minds of the Jewish people fulfill through the Mosaic Covenant that which is required for them to receive their King. I'm a second hand source... so I tried to frame this as neutrally as I could. Through this lens, is how I made my initial response regarding whether or not I agreed with Hagee as asked in the OP.

                      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                      2) That suggests to me that you do not take Ezekiel 36-48 literally, am I wrong? Is it your belief that the Jewish people are no longer God’s chosen and will not have prominence in the millennium?
                      No, I do take it literally. But I emphatically deny that the rites, rituals, and sacrifices of the Temple in Ezekiel are equal to or synonymous with the Mosaic Law. Nor do I think that obedience to the Mosaic Law during the tribulation will be the basis of the return of Jesus as Messiah.



                      Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                      3) Sorry, I am confused as to what your point is, can you be a little more specific?
                      So... the above is getting towards the specifics. What I've learned through what is normally characterized or labeled as normative dispensationalism, is that the Mosaic Covenant was abrogated by the death of the Christ. This, in my opinion is the best explanation and the one best supported by scripture. Hope that helps explain it.

                      Look forward to your reply,
                      Dave
                      Let not conscience make you linger
                      Nor of fitness fondly dream
                      All the fitness He requires
                      Is to feel your need of Him

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I will finish up responding to your post where this all started.


                        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                        Did the Jewish people as a whole reject Jesus or was it the leadership that instigated a riot with some?

                        Originally posted by Dave View Post
                        Maybe that would depend on when the expounder believed the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah happened.... I think, there's clear evidence of Jesus rescinding the Kingdom offer, and therefore it's a moot point of whether or not the Jewish people as a whole rejected Him.
                        1) Could you point to the scripture of when Jesus rescinded the offer? I have never encountered that thought before.


                        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                        How many thousands accepted Him as their Savior? Why were the leadership concerned that the populace would cause trouble if they knew what they were contemplating?

                        Originally posted by Dave View Post
                        Both good questions I suppose, but I can't see where there as relevant as the two yes and yes questions I answered above. I do think that your second question here regarding the populace and trouble is interesting, since I think that the Sanhedrin had interest in the status quo of the Temple and the Law. But really, that just again highlights where I think our discussion goes.
                        1) My point of the thousands of the rank and file Jews who followed Jesus as opposed to those that protested against him and were orchestrated by the leadership, I believe. IOW, I do not believe that the majority of every-day Jews rejected Jesus.

                        2) Where do you think our discussion is going, I am curious… in case I need to prepare.

                        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                        I am about as fundamental, Pentecostal and conservative in my theology as one can get and have listened to Hagee for years and in my opinion he interprets scripture literally as any pastor that I have heard or read.

                        Originally posted by Dave View Post
                        I have a hard time referring to what Pentecostals normally believe regarding eschatology as dispensational. I know it's normally pre-millennial (in my experience), but I'm not convinced it's dispensational. Just my opinion...
                        3) Perhaps that depends upon your definition of “dispensation”, would you care to define it as you see it?

                        3a) My view is that from Genesis 1 to when Jesus was raised from the grave, God used Judaism in dealing with people, disp 1, from Jesus for approximately 2k years, so far, God used Christianity dealing with people, disp 2, beginning at the start of the seven-year tribulation, God pours out His wrath on the world for those left behind, disp 3, during the 1k year reign of Christ on earth, God once again will deal with Jews and Gentiles as He did in the beginning, with some modifications, disp 4, and perhaps, extending on into post millennium. I have formed that opinion from scripture, it did not come from Donald Duck or whoever some ascribe it to.

                        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                        Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                        Hagee is pro Israel, pro Jesus Christ, pro scripture as it is written and to make judgement of him using a clip of a few seconds is unfair in my opinion.
                        Originally posted by Dave View Post
                        I understand what you're saying... But if I could explain to you why I posted, it would be to instigate a response from you so that I could see whether or not some of the things I've learned from pro-Hagee posters is consistent with how you would defend your conclusions. I go to a SBC, and I've met people in bible studies that reference Hagee. Normally the people I meet at church aren't as well versed as the people I meet online, since I've encountered other Hagee supporters in mediums such as this. But really, I don't know enough (in my opinion), which is why I responded.

                        Any way... yeah, I'm kinda weird.

                        God bless, look forward to your thoughts (although I'm highly inconsistent in my replies)

                        Dave
                        4) If, you have the beliefs that I have inferred from your writings, I am somewhat surprised that you go to a SBC. I was a member for many years but prefer more non-denominational churches, those that are pretty much in alignment with SBC theology wise but have a different format.

                        5) IMO, most churches are not where one learns scripture. Salvation scripture yes, but beyond that, not so much. I prefer the Bible with many commentaries of which they must align with scripture as it is written for me to accept their views. I have learned more scripture from Logos software than all the churches that I have ever attended.

                        6) Will try to get to your last response perhaps tomorrow. God night and God bless.
                        Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

                        When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

                        I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                          1) Could you point to the scripture of when Jesus rescinded the offer? I have never encountered that thought before.
                          Really? Hmph... interesting.

                          (background) Starting with the assertion that Jesus began His ministry by claiming and proving to be the prophesied Messiah, I'll fast forward to (Matt. 12). By now the Pharisees had been examining the claims of Jesus and had reached the point in which they not only rejected His claim, but also were plotting to kill Him (Matt. 12:13). My view then, has the Pharisees bringing the blind, mute, demon possessed man as a culmination test for Jesus... because this type of demon possession (blind and mute) was seen as only one that the Messiah could cast out. When Jesus did, the people looked to the Pharisees to confirm that Jesus was the Messiah, based on the information concerning the specific demon possession (they were astonished: Matt. 12:23). The Pharisees however attributed the miracle to Beelzebub... thus refusing to confirm the miracle as Messianic. Based on that rejection, Jesus explains why they are wrong (Matt. 12:25-29), and then explains how their rejection has consequences towards His ministry to Israel (Matt. 12:30-32). Jesus then not only denounces the Pharisees, but the entire generation (Matt.12:39-42) and announces His refusal to offer any more proof as to His identity, save for His death, burial, and resurrection. Moving on to the next thoughts of the author Matthew, we see that Jesus explains that He will speak to the nation in parables so that the entire nation will not turn and be healed (Matt. 13:10-15); which is the prerequisite for the establishment of the earthly Kingdom. There's also the further evidence that the offer was rescinded in that during what is referred to as the "triumphal entry" Jesus says that the judgment is sure (Lk. 19:41-44) and He notes that the Kingdom was shut because of the leadership of the Pharisees (Matt. 23:13), He announces that the house of Israel is left in ruin and will await a time in which they will offer the proper Messianic greeting (Lk. 13:34-35).

                          This is a brief and as concise as I can make it (I think). There's a lot of detail to fill in...

                          Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                          1) My point of the thousands of the rank and file Jews who followed Jesus as opposed to those that protested against him and were orchestrated by the leadership, I believe. IOW, I do not believe that the majority of every-day Jews rejected Jesus.
                          Well, the rank and file it appears were highly interested, motivated, and in some cases converted (judging by the gospel accounts). But it must have been a very confusing time, since the very leadership who taught the rank and file about the Messiah, were the ones leading the people to reject His claims.


                          Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                          2) Where do you think our discussion is going, I am curious… in case I need to prepare.
                          Based on what I mentioned in the comment, I think that how the Mosaic Law was to be dealt with by God in relation to the Nation of Israel and the gentiles is extremely important. Dispensationalism, as I understand it, hinges on the outworking of the particular Covenants that God made with the world and Israel. Since we're looking at the basis of the New Covenant (with the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord), the progression of our particular views of eschatology will be steered by how we view the outworking of those covenants. That was my experience with discussing it in the past... but like I said, I try to be non-assuming. I'm open the idea of learning something new through interacting with you.



                          Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                          3) Perhaps that depends upon your definition of “dispensation”, would you care to define it as you see it?
                          Sure. It refers to the specific way in which God plans, regulates, and administers His program through-out specific time periods, These time periods are defined in the way that God works within them by Covenants. The essential condition to dispensationalism, is the distinction that is made between Israel, gentiles, and one could add the church. As I've studied the differing views of what I guess are systematic theologies, I've noticed how the essential condition to dispensationalism (as asserted) is sometimes kept, but not always kept consistently. As I see it, at the moment (which adds to the intrigue), I'm trying to figure out if I'm right or wrong in how consistently you and or Hagee keep the distinctions.

                          Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                          4) If, you have the beliefs that I have inferred from your writings, I am somewhat surprised that you go to a SBC. I was a member for many years but prefer more non-denominational churches, those that are pretty much in alignment with SBC theology wise but have a different format.
                          Well... the SBC churches have never ceased to surprise me with the variety one can find there-in. Never-the-less... it's the place that steered me toward the beliefs I hold, and therefore I'm more compelled to stay. The main thing I try to remember is that I've learned and learn progressively... this helps me to remember that others probably do to, and I'd like to think that inspires in me a certain amount of respect, patience, and humility towards the process. Yeah, I get frustrated at church sometimes... but I allow for my ignorance, and I give what I've learned willfully.

                          5) IMO, most churches are not where one learns scripture. Salvation scripture yes, but beyond that, not so much. I prefer the Bible with many commentaries of which they must align with scripture as it is written for me to accept their views. I have learned more scripture from Logos software than all the churches that I have ever attended.
                          Agreed. The crazy internet has helped me navigate what people believe, I already possessed the internal need to know why they do. That need to know has driven me for years...

                          Hope you're well,
                          Dave
                          Let not conscience make you linger
                          Nor of fitness fondly dream
                          All the fitness He requires
                          Is to feel your need of Him

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post
                            Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post

                            1) Could you point to the scripture of when Jesus rescinded the offer? I have never encountered that thought before.
                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            Really? Hmph... interesting.

                            (background) Starting with the assertion that Jesus began His ministry by claiming and proving to be the prophesied Messiah, I'll fast forward to (Matt. 12). By now the Pharisees had been examining the claims of Jesus and had reached the point in which they not only rejected His claim, but also were plotting to kill Him (Matt. 12:13).
                            1) OK so far.

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            My view then, has the Pharisees bringing the blind, mute, demon possessed man as a culmination test for Jesus... because this type of demon possession (blind and mute) was seen as only one that the Messiah could cast out. When Jesus did, the people looked to the Pharisees to confirm that Jesus was the Messiah, based on the information concerning the specific demon possession (they were astonished: Matt. 12:23). The Pharisees however attributed the miracle to Beelzebub... thus refusing to confirm the miracle as Messianic.
                            2) That is how it reads to me.

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            Based on that rejection, Jesus explains why they are wrong (Matt. 12:25-29),
                            3) Yep, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees.

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            and then explains how their rejection has consequences towards His ministry to Israel (Matt. 12:30-32).
                            4) I do not see that, what I see is Jesus explaining the unpardonable sin to them.

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            Jesus then not only denounces the Pharisees, but the entire generation (Matt.12:39-42) and announces His refusal to offer any more proof as to His identity, save for His death, burial, and resurrection.
                            5) These verses seem to me to be about their desire for signs from Jesus, where is there anything about Jesus rescinding His offer to the Jewish people?

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            Moving on to the next thoughts of the author Matthew, we see that Jesus explains that He will speak to the nation in parables so that the entire nation will not turn and be healed (Matt. 13:10-15);
                            6) It seems to me those verses are an explanation of why Jesus spoke to them in parables and is more about the rejection by the people than rescinding Himself as their Messiah.

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            which is the prerequisite for the establishment of the earthly Kingdom.
                            7) This is somewhat confusing to me being that the nation Israel will turn to the Lord beginning some time before the tribulation and consummating during the tribulation, is that not correct?

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            There's also the further evidence that the offer was rescinded in that during what is referred to as the "triumphal entry" Jesus says that the judgment is sure (Lk. 19:41-44) and He notes that the Kingdom was shut because of the leadership of the Pharisees (Matt. 23:13), He announces that the house of Israel is left in ruin and will await a time in which they will offer the proper Messianic greeting (Lk. 13:34-35).

                            8) OK, I understand what you believe but I do not see anywhere in the scriptures that you referenced that states Jesus rescinded His offer of being Christ to them. It seems to me the major theme is the rejection by the Jews primarily due to their leadership.

                            8a) IF, His offer was rescinded, how did so many Jews become saved? If an offer is rescinded, can it be claimed by the ones that it was rescinded from? I can certainly see that the Jews would not have their King at that time because of their rejection but they will at a later date. Is there scripture where Jesus reinstitutes His offer of being their messiah?

                            Originally posted by Dave View Post
                            This is a brief and as concise as I can make it (I think). There's a lot of detail to fill in...
                            9) I would politely ask you to keep in mind that I apply a literal interpretation to scripture when it makes perfectly good sense as it is written so it may not be easy convincing me of a belief if I cannot see scripture as it is written supporting that belief. I am not saying you are wrong; I just do not see it as you do.

                            Will continue tomorrow, the Lord willing. God bless.

                            Ted
                            Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

                            When plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense, else you get nonsense.

                            I believe that God said what he meant and He means what He said.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by tevans9129 View Post

                              Absolutely agree, the Jews are God's chosen people and He could care less what anyone believes.
                              Then you should curse Jesus to boiling excrement and become a "Jew".

                              Why don't you?
                              Last edited by Ruk; 02-20-19, 04:21 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by HENOG View Post

                                I think it has everything to do with Dispensationalism, but you are right to put it in quotations-marks because I think that many people who hold to "dispensationalism" do not see it as a system of thought only about 150 years old, they think it's orthodox Bible reading. Also for myself, dispensationalism was the only eschatological "understanding" of the Bible I heard for the first 17 years of my life.
                                Dispensataionlist didn't even become popular until the rise of Pentecostal televangelists in the second-half of 20th century. The largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptists, doesn't have any Resolutions reflecting Dispensationalism until the 1990s. Dispensationalists are a satanic cult within the walls of our churches. They are both a cause and a symptom of the the rapid decline of the modern church.

                                I think if you ask John Hagee wether he is a dispensationalist, he'll say: "I'm a Bible believing christian."
                                Has someone asked that Dispensationalist devil, Hagee, why he considers himself to be a Christian if Jesus never claimed to be Christ? And, why doesn't he doesn't curse Jesus to boiling excrement and become a Jew, if Jews are God's chosen people?

                                I think you hit the nail on the head when saying "Hagee is just being 'sensational' to sell books." My concern is however with my christian brothers and sisters who buy and believe those books. This reminds me of what the apostle Paul wrote to Timothy:
                                How can any child of God not smell the demonic stink of Dispensationalism? How can Hagee's commercial declaring that Jesus didn't claim to be Christ get even one Christian to buy his book?

                                The value of Dispensationalism is that it exposes the fake Christians, the devil's other children, among us who call themselves Christian.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X