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Israel, during the present time is the believing remnant...

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  • Israel, during the present time is the believing remnant...

    Originally posted by Dave View Post

    However... this also means that what is referred to as Israel must be defined. Israel, during the present time is the believing remnant (Jewish people who accept Jesus as the Messiah), and together with believing gentiles, makes up what we call the church.

    So...

    Some Presbyterians think Israel during the present time is the WHOLE church...

    Whereas some Dispensationalists think Israel during the present time is only PART of the church (and nothing outside of the church).

    What do the rest of you believe?
    God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

    The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

  • #2
    Originally posted by Presentist View Post


    So...

    Some Presbyterians think Israel during the present time is the WHOLE church...

    Whereas some Dispensationalists think Israel during the present time is only PART of the church (and nothing outside of the church).

    What do the rest of you believe?
    Good morning,

    I will answer this as concisely as possible, without addressing the assertion of what "some" dispensationalists believe. I'm trying to dedicate some time to a response to my friend Lam. in another thread, so I'm limited to how much I can devote to this topic right now. I do have scripture I can cite to support my answers, but I'm not going to because I'm doing other things; I hope this helps.

    It may be helpful for me to use an example here... Think first is the American military; I'll use the Army and the Navy as examples. The American military is made up of distinct parts, the Army and the Navy, but both are equally the American military. The church is made up of Jewish believers, and gentile believers. Both are equally the church, but both are distinct. Another way to look at is as men and women... men and women are distinct, but both are equal parts of the church.

    Regarding Israel. Israel, is made up of parts just as America is made up of parts... Israel, is made up of all people who are born of Jewish decent. There is debate as to what constitutes a Jewish person, but for time's sake I won't mention or debate this. For clarity though, I will assert that Jewishness is hereditary (people are born Jewish; there are no more proselytes as there once was because proselytes were a product of the Mosaic Law -which is ended;and the earlier provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant-where Jewishness was defined). Therefore, Israel is made up of people of Jewish decent that are either non-believers (currently those who reject Jesus as the Messiah) and believers (those who accept Jesus as the Messiah). Believing Jewish people constitute what is referred to as the true Israel. Non-believing Jews constitute what is not truly Israel.

    Where the distinction between Jew and gentile is erased, is within salvation. Scripture clearly makes no distinction between Jew and gentile as it relates to how they must be saved. All, are saved by the death of the Lord God Messiah Jesus. God's shed blood is what spares Jew and gentile from God's wrath, and puts both Jew and gentile into the body of Christ (church) via Spirit Baptism. Otherwise the distinction remains, just as the distinction remains between men and women, or, as my example relates, army and navy; the distinction remains, but the church did not exist prior to the barrier of it's existence being erased (which was the Law of Moses). This is the reason I'm so adamant about the Law having been rendered inoperative upon the death of the Christ. It had to end... it can't be operative.

    Again, I hope this is helpful in answering your question. Books are devoted to the topic, so I realize the inadequacy of my response (there is precept upon precept in regards to it). Part of learning something however, is the ability to clearly give account of it, and I hope I've somewhat succeeded in that.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave; 06-14-19, 08:48 AM.
    Let not conscience make you linger
    Nor of fitness fondly dream
    All the fitness He requires
    Is to feel your need of Him

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Dave View Post

      Israel, is made up of all people who are born of Jewish decent.

      For clarification, in your mind, what constitutes "Jewish descent"?

      A) Any descendant of Abraham
      B) Any descendant of Isaac
      C) Any descendant of Jacob
      D) Any descendant of Judah

      I would answer C (which includes D).


      And...

      If a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman, are their children "of Jewish descent"?

      I would answer Yes*.

      If a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man, are their children "of Jewish descent"?

      I would answer No*.


      *Based on Numbers 1:3 through 4:20.
      God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

      The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Presentist View Post


        For clarification, in your mind, what constitutes "Jewish descent"?

        A) Any descendant of Abraham
        B) Any descendant of Isaac
        C) Any descendant of Jacob
        D) Any descendant of Judah

        I would answer C (which includes D).


        And...

        If a Jewish man marries a non-Jewish woman, are their children "of Jewish descent"?

        I would answer Yes*.

        If a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man, are their children "of Jewish descent"?

        I would answer No*.


        *Based on Numbers 1:3 through 4:20.
        I pretty much mirror your answers; I do think scripture supports a Patriarchal system. .

        The only thing I'm not totally decided on is if a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man = status of. The reason being, is I think I heard a very good explanation as to Timothy being the son of a gentile father and a Jewish mother (thus why he was not circumcised) and that he was considered to be Jewish and circumcised based on that. I also think that the circumcision of Timothy is an important moment for scripture, and very revealing.

        Regardless, It's one reason why I didn't offer that within my explanation... I do think it's important (knowing "why a Jew is a Jew"), but I don't want to die running up that hill.People have strong opinions regarding it, I didn't want to get too far into it.
        Let not conscience make you linger
        Nor of fitness fondly dream
        All the fitness He requires
        Is to feel your need of Him

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dave View Post

          The only thing I'm not totally decided on is if a Jewish woman marries a non-Jewish man = status of.

          Are you aware that if you include the mother's ancestry in determining if you are of Jewish descent, then we may ALL be "of Jewish descent".

          Scientists have calculated that we are all related via father or mother back about 3,400 years ago (which is AFTER the time of Jacob).

          I personally do NOT include your mothers ancestry in determining if you are of Jewish descent based on Numbers 1:3 - 4:20.

          Have you decided what you believe yet?


          P.S.

          HOW can we know if any specific person is of Jewish descent?

          I got into the ancestry craze a while back but could only trace my ancestors back about 200 years.

          But to determine if you are a descendant of Jacob would require knowing your ancestry back 3,500+ years!
          God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

          The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Presentist View Post


            Are you aware that if you include the mother's ancestry in determining if you are of Jewish descent, then we may ALL be "of Jewish descent".

            Scientists have calculated that we are all related via father or mother back about 3,400 years ago (which is AFTER the time of Jacob).

            I personally do NOT include your mothers ancestry in determining if you are of Jewish descent based on Numbers 1:3 - 4:20.

            Have you decided what you believe yet?


            P.S.

            HOW can we know if any specific person is of Jewish descent?

            I got into the ancestry craze a while back but could only trace my ancestors back about 200 years.

            But to determine if you are a descendant of Jacob would require knowing your ancestry back 3,500+ years!
            I'm a futurist... I've decided there is a remnant, based on God's grace. I've decided that a remnant must remain in order for scripture to be harmonious and reconciled/fulfilled. I've decided that even over 3500 years, even over 35,000 or 35,000,000 years... If an Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnibenevolent God has determined that His program must function in a predetermined way, than in this way it will function.

            How can we know if any specific person is of Jewish descent? The question (in my opinion) is limited in scope... it's an anti-scriptural question (no offense) in the poster's point of view. "We" aren't choosing the faithful remnant, nor are we tasked we keeping track.

            I do believe the scripture supports the patriarchal system...
            Let not conscience make you linger
            Nor of fitness fondly dream
            All the fitness He requires
            Is to feel your need of Him

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Dave View Post

              I'm a futurist... I've decided there is a remnant, based on God's grace. I've decided that a remnant must remain in order for scripture to be harmonious ...

              But ANYONE who is a descendant of Jacob is of Jewish descent WHETHER OR NOT they know Jacob is their ancestor.

              Do you agree?

              God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

              The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Presentist View Post


                But ANYONE who is a descendant of Jacob is of Jewish descent WHETHER OR NOT they know Jacob is their ancestor.

                Do you agree?
                Yes. They would be of Jewish decent.

                That does not make them of the remnant though... the remnant was defined by me as those of Jewish decent who accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah (true Israel).

                Hope that helps.
                Dave

                Let not conscience make you linger
                Nor of fitness fondly dream
                All the fitness He requires
                Is to feel your need of Him

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dave View Post

                  Yes. They would be of Jewish decent.

                  That does not make them of the remnant though... the remnant was defined by me as those of Jewish decent who accept Jesus as the Jewish Messiah (true Israel).

                  I see.

                  So you divide people into four distinct groups...

                  1) Remnant Israelites (Christian)
                  2) Non-remnant Israelites (non-Christians)
                  3) Non-Israelite (Gentile) Christians
                  4) Non-Israelite (Gentile) non-Christians

                  And you say Israel today is just #1, but Israel in the future may be #1 & #2. Right?


                  So who is the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 for? 1 & 2 or just 1?


                  I believe the new covenant is Jeremiah 31 is for all believers, which includes believers who are descendants of Jacob.
                  God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                  The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Presentist View Post


                    I see.

                    So you divide people into four distinct groups...

                    1) Remnant Israelites (Christian)
                    2) Non-remnant Israelites (non-Christians)
                    3) Non-Israelite (Gentile) Christians
                    4) Non-Israelite (Gentile) non-Christians
                    It could be divided that way... I wouldn't have a problem with it.


                    Originally posted by Presentist View Post
                    A) And you say Israel today is just #1, B) but Israel in the future may be #1 & #2. Right?
                    A) No. Israel is a nation and made up of both believing and non-believing Jewish people. Jewish believers in Jesus are the Remnant or true Israel, the Israel of promise.

                    B) No. Israel of the future (as in Israel of the physical Millennial Kingdom) will all be believing Jewish people. The promise is that all will be saved, not some, not most, but all.


                    So who is the new covenant in Jeremiah 31 for? 1 & 2 or just 1?
                    Only believing Jewish people. All Jewish people who enter into the physical Millennial Kingdom will do so based on their faith that Jesus is the Messiah, The Covenant, the promise, says that all will know Him (Jer. 31:33-34)

                    Originally posted by Presentist View Post
                    I believe the new covenant is Jeremiah 31 is for all believers, which includes believers who are descendants of Jacob.
                    The New Covenant language is specific in nature to Israel. This, is where the "feels" overtake what the text actually says. The New Covenant is made with Israel, but gentiles partake in the spiritual benefits of this Covenant through Christ. This is explained in (Eph. 2:11-16, 3:5-6).

                    Here... All of God's promises to Israel (both physical and spiritual) are mediated through 4 UNconditional covenants; the Abrahamic, Land, Davidic, and New Covenant. Gentiles do not overtake, or morph into Israel in order to reap the benefits of them. We partake of the spiritual benefits (Spirit in us, Christ in us) through the Messiah. Israel (the remnant) is currently receiving the benefit of the spiritual promises also (Believing Jews and gentiles are the church), but Israel in the future will possess all of the unconditional promises once the fullness of the gentiles come in.

                    The Abrahamic Covenant is actually the source of gentile promise in the Covenants... through Abraham all are blessed. Through Abraham, the Seed will come, The Christ, who dies for our sin and removes the barrier of hostility (the Mosaic Covenant; a conditional covenant, meant to be temporary) from between Jews and gentiles. He did not remove the Jewishness from Israel, nor their remnant status... Nor did He morph Israel into the church. He removed the Mosaic Law, that stipulated a gentile must become a Jew (proselyte) in order to draw nigh unto God. Gentiles partake of the Covenants through Christ; we partake of the Spirit, and salvation. This is a coveted position, the church is the Bride of the Son of God and will receive resurrected bodies and rule with Him. The Jewish remnant that enters the physical Kingdom will also have a coveted position, but it will not be the same as the church.

                    There's tons to unpack... but I hope this helps answer some of your questions. This is a very common teaching by the way... It's not something you can't find written by authors.
                    Let not conscience make you linger
                    Nor of fitness fondly dream
                    All the fitness He requires
                    Is to feel your need of Him

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dave View Post

                      However... this also means that what is referred to as Israel must be defined. Israel, during the present time is the believing remnant (Jewish people who accept Jesus as the Messiah), and together with believing gentiles, makes up what we call the church. Believing Jews and gentiles (during this period of time) experience the spiritual benefits of the New Covenant.
                      Originally posted by Dave View Post

                      Israel is a nation and made up of both believing and non-believing Jewish people. Jewish believers in Jesus are the Remnant or true Israel, the Israel of promise.

                      You seem to be making contradictory statements.

                      So to clarify...

                      Israel TODAY is...

                      A) the believing remnant (Jewish people who accept Jesus as the Messiah)
                      B) both believing and non-believing Jewish people
                      God our father is the holy spirit called the LORD, and Jesus is the LORD in the flesh.

                      The LORD is God Dt 6:4 The LORD is our father Is 64:8 The LORD is holy Is 6:3 God is spirit Jn 4:24 God manifest in the flesh 1 Ti 3:16 Jesus is Lord 1 Co 12:3

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Presentist View Post




                        You seem to be making contradictory statements.

                        So to clarify...

                        Israel TODAY is...

                        A) the believing remnant (Jewish people who accept Jesus as the Messiah)
                        B) both believing and non-believing Jewish people
                        Sorry for the confusion. I don't have editors, I'm a dude sitting at his desk at work squeezing theological discussion in between phone calls, management, and business, The context in the top post was supposed to support the remnant, true Israel.

                        Regarding Israel. Israel, is made up of parts just as America is made up of parts... Israel, is made up of all people who are born of Jewish decent. There is debate as to what constitutes a Jewish person, but for time's sake I won't mention or debate this. For clarity though, I will assert that Jewishness is hereditary (people are born Jewish; there are no more proselytes as there once was because proselytes were a product of the Mosaic Law -which is ended;and the earlier provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant-where Jewishness was defined). Therefore, Israel is made up of people of Jewish decent that are either non-believers (currently those who reject Jesus as the Messiah) and believers (those who accept Jesus as the Messiah). Believing Jewish people constitute what is referred to as the true Israel. Non-believing Jews constitute what is not truly Israel.

                        Addition, true Israel is the remnant.
                        Let not conscience make you linger
                        Nor of fitness fondly dream
                        All the fitness He requires
                        Is to feel your need of Him

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Dave View Post

                          Sorry for the confusion. I don't have editors, I'm a dude sitting at his desk at work squeezing theological discussion in between phone calls, management, and business, The context in the top post was supposed to support the remnant, true Israel.

                          Regarding Israel. Israel, is made up of parts just as America is made up of parts... Israel, is made up of all people who are born of Jewish decent. There is debate as to what constitutes a Jewish person, but for time's sake I won't mention or debate this. For clarity though, I will assert that Jewishness is hereditary (people are born Jewish; there are no more proselytes as there once was because proselytes were a product of the Mosaic Law -which is ended;and the earlier provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant-where Jewishness was defined). Therefore, Israel is made up of people of Jewish decent that are either non-believers (currently those who reject Jesus as the Messiah) and believers (those who accept Jesus as the Messiah). Believing Jewish people constitute what is referred to as the true Israel. Non-believing Jews constitute what is not truly Israel.

                          Addition, true Israel is the remnant.
                          I think a better way to put it would be "Israel The Church" the remnant consist of ethnic Jews within this Church.

                          There is no question there is and will be remnant ethnic Jew' s added to the true Israel of God, "The Church"

                          Only a "Remnant" of ethnic Jews, meaning a small amount, they will be saved and added to the "True Israel" the Church.

                          Paul speaks a "Remnant" of ethnic Jews will be saved and added to the Church.

                          The very same as saying a "Remnant" of Chinese are elected to salvation.

                          "Remnant" = Small Amount

                          Does this Jewish "Remnant" have a future important role, I believe so, the woman in the wilderness, having the everlasting gospel to be preached during the future tribulation in Jerusalem, Mana from heaven, Rev 12:6, Micah 7:11-20

                          Romans 9:27KJV
                          Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

                          Romans 11:5KJV
                          Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
                          Last edited by Truth7t7; 06-15-19, 01:56 AM.

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